Darth Trayas Team VS Darth Sidious's Team

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
And Dooku's pwnage of Ventress is equally impressive in my book, combat or not.

The fact that it can't even be established that Ventress was defending herself, and that it's likely she wasn't, automatically relegates it into being nowhere near as impressive. Not to mention, people go on about how it was a simple motion of the finger; well when Traya threw the Jedi Masters back with telekinesis at she didn't make a single movement at all. And they would have likely had their defences up considering they would have had to consider that The Exile would try to resist her punishment. No matter how you look at it Traya's feat is vastly more impressive.

I take it back, it is Neb.

Because I acted any differently in that lost post to how I have been this entire time? Or is it because I continue to provide overwhelming evidence that Sidious's team gets beaten quite easily that you now bring this up?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Like what?

Like I said below, have you ever seen Kreia choke someone across the universe?

Their powers don't have to be exactly quantified for us to be able to say that the likelihood is that it was an incredible feat, and for the record, I don't think the powers of anybody can be perfectly quantified. The vast, vast majority of feats displayed by the PT Jedi/Sith are in relation to another entity, who's worth in most cases is also determiend by in relation to another entity. Even the few constant displays we see from them (such as applying telekinesis to an object) don't allow perfect quantifications of their abilities as we can't say for certain how much effort they were exerting, or whether there were any extenuating circumstances, such as a particularly strong Force presence on the location they were operating (and for the record what constant displays there are are vastly outclassed by feats from others throughout the mythos, so if you wanted to argue that the PT Jedi/Sith were especially powerful in the first place you would be forced to fall back on where they stand, relative to their peers and their time period). It's not possible to undeniably prove almost anything in this forum so we're forced to argue what is more probable, where displays of relative superiority are completely adequate in supporting an argument.

No, we can quantify the PT characters powers because they actually do something, we see them in movies, cartoons, comics and novels, not just in a cutscene with no text whatsoever supporting it. Ofcourse it's important we know how powerful those Jedi Masters are...

If I say that Vader force choked Padmé, does that mean he would be able to do it to Sidious just as easy? NO!

The fact that she has displayed herself to be a relatively more powerful Force User?

No she hasn't. What has she shown to do? Again, has she used the Force on someone on the other side of the universe?

Exact source and quote, please. If it's anything like the other stuff you've sourced I'm sure it doesn't definitively establish what you think it does.

You haven't sourced anything. And me having to give you a source to everything just show your complete ignorance on the subject. It’s on the AotC DVD Commentary.

I'm making up that it's entirely possible all of that was the case? I didn't say it definitely was.

Well, nothing seems to be definitely the case with you, that makes it very hard to take you seriously. If you don’t show up at the table with events that have actually happened or stated to have happened then I don’t see the point in continuing down fantasy lane with you.

She had fought him in a lightsaber duel before they had formed their master/apprentice relationship. When Dooku's simply giving her a [painful] test/lesson or simply playing around with her for a bit, why fight back and cause it to escalate into a real battle where the outcome, from her perspective, would remain the same, only Dooku would likely kill her afterwards? It would suit her interests far more to just let him get on with it.

And again, there's the fact that it's likely, and fully possible, that she wouldn't have been prepared to defend against it in the first place.

Likely. Okay, let’s apply that to the following.

They were all facing a being they recognised as a Force User with thir ligthsabers drawn and in a battle stance, aware that she had just assualted all of them with the Force. They had the opportunity as well as a need to defend themselves. Asajj had no such opportunity.

They were charging at her with a lightsaber, so ready to engage in a lightsaber fight, not ready for a Force attack from her, by the time she performed it they didn’t have the time anymore to get their defenses up. There’s the fact that it’s likely, and fully possible, that they wouldn’t have been prepared to defend against it in the first place.

There's such a thing as probable speculation and improbable speculation, and applying the latter does nothing to discredit the former.

It’s just as likely to have happened as the other. But at least you admit you’re only speculating now. Which is why I’m starting to give up on you.

Refined, perhaps. Powerful, I wouldn't quite say so as it was a precision attack.

You have to be powerful to do something like that, whatever you say you’re opinion is.

Their powers don't have to be exactly quantified for us to be able to say that the likelihood is that it was an incredible feat, and for the record, I don't think the powers of anybody can be [i]perfectly quantified. The vast, vast majority of feats displayed by the PT Jedi/Sith are in relation to another entity, who's worth in most cases is also determiend by in relation to another entity. Even the few constant displays we see from them (such as applying telekinesis to an object) don't allow perfect quantifications of their abilities as we can't say for certain how much effort they were exerting, or whether there were any extenuating circumstances, such as a particularly strong Force presence on the location they were operating (and for the record what constant displays there are are vastly outclassed by feats from others throughout the mythos, so if you wanted to argue that the PT Jedi/Sith were especially powerful in the first place you would be forced to fall back on where they stand, relative to their peers and their time period). It's not possible to undeniably prove almost anything in this forum so we're forced to argue what is more probable, where displays of relative superiority are completely adequate in supporting an argument.[/i]

No, we can quantify the PT characters powers because they actually do something, we see them in movies, cartoons, comics and novels, not just in a cutscene with no text whatsoever supporting it. Ofcourse it's important we know how powerful those Jedi Masters are...

If I say that Vader force choked Padmé, does that mean he would be able to do it to Sidious just as easy? NO!

Why assume her incredible power would be exclusive to that technique in the first place? We see her knock the Jedi Masters back just as easily with her telekinesis and she quite easily defeats an entire crowd of Sith Assassins who were all of a similar nature to The Exile with some kind of technique. Her ability is demonstrated to be incredible dominating, drain or otherwise.

Knocking down several unknown Force Users is not incredible. Or at last not compared to the PT characters. Nor is your own skill of assuming. Try again.

A big: 😬 is all you deserve for that comment...

And I'd be interested in examining why exactly it is that I see a group of Force Users who display some of the most unique, unprecedented, dominating displays of Force use in the entire mythos, and you on the other hand see a group of "unknown goons".

Fisto at least has been quoted to be one of the finest swordsman the order had ever produced. You verbally Sion and Traya yourself doesn’t make them better in combat.

It doesn't have to be a certainty.

I’m going to quote Yoda here: ”That is why you fail.”

Again: her progression through the Trayus Academy, holding Sion back repeatedly, and defeat of Traya, as a demonstration of endurance and immediate ability, is beyond anything we see from Sdious's team. She's displayed the ability to compete with/defeat some of the most impressive, dominating Force Users int he entire mythos, and she does all of it in between having to fight her way through an entire army of Sith.

That’s something said by all every KOTOR fanboy thus far. Apparently killing several unknown Sith makes you very powerful.

What do we see after TPM that's canon and conflicts with what I was saying?
Well, you act as if KOTOR provides us with the most powerful pieces of Force Use ever. Which it does not.

Powerful? Relative term. The most powerful, which is what you were saying earlier, yet to be established.

It is established.

When you apply probability, as a general rule you don't take into account anamolous pieces of evidence. The manne rin which Obi-Wan defeated Maul is not the norm. The likelihood is that it was done in a conventional manner that displayed superiority (and it's certainly what Malak seems to acknowledge afterwards).

Which pieces of evidence?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
In-Universe Source. No Omniscient narrator.

It is an omniscient narrator.

I'll get to this in a second.

Which heavily matches the description of free indirect discourse. the narrator puts the thought onto the perspective of Vader by saying "Vader imagined" first, and then goes on to directly state something that perfectly matches what Vader may have been thinking. You can not establish this to be from the Omniscient Narrator.

You obviously have no clue what you’re talking about, it’s not Vader thinking this, it’s a narrator stating it.

So I'm supposed to read an entire several page essay to guage your point just because you refused to provide evidence in a concise manner?

You refuse to provide any evidence at all. You have all the evidence of Sidious being more powerful right in front of you. But apparently you’re too stubborn to acknowledge it.

Savage Opress.

DE is Canon.

Saying that he's mroe powerful, which I'm sure he was, is not the same as actually being astronomically more powerful than his previous depictions. It does not constitute as a reasonable explanation. And just because he was a clone when he said that doesn't mean it was because he was a clone... And something about the previous debate implied that it was RotS but whatever we can use RotJ.

Which from the previous debate implied it was RotS? I look at the OP, and just as we’re not employing Traya as a kid, we’re not using a weaker version of Sidious.

Yes, Sidious is more powerful, a lot more powerful. Whatever your opinion on the matter is, is irrelevant.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Because I acted any differently in that lost post to how I have been this entire time? Or is it because I continue to provide overwhelming evidence that Sidious's team gets beaten quite easily that you now bring this up?

WHICH OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE??

So far you've worked with assumptions, speculation and just straight out saying your opinion. While I've brought evidence and facts.

I'm dissappointed that you didn't oblige to my request.

Again, all any of that deserves is a big: 😬

I'm going to try to take this into a different direction before I go back to respond to it.

Slash, do you believe that we can definitively prove that either team would defeat the other in a hypothetical battle? (Y/N)

I'm going to choose to ignore everything that I've already adequately addressed as you seem to now be arguing in circles and constantly resuming already defeated points, and I'm going to also ignore your ridiculous "no you" counter comments where I've already explained how exactly you're wrong on the subject and your blatant lies on the subject of what exactly I've been sourcing and the evidence I've been providing. I'd also invite you to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_indirect_speech . Refer to the post above for the continuation of the topic on whether we can apply probability to this outcome. The discussion of DE's canonical status can continue in the Savage Opress thread.

Like I said below, have you ever seen Kreia choke someone across the universe?

Well if you want to discuss the general ability to locate your awareness across the space-time continuum (which is far more isolated from the mechanics of a combat situation than their respective domination of other Force Users), she does display awareness of events that take place thousands of the years into the future. Meanwhile, the likes of Plo Koon have demonstrated the ability to communicate telepathically on different sides of the Galaxy, so what we have again is that Traya has displayed something else that's unprecedented in nature whereas Vader has displayed something met by a relatively unspectacular Jedi Master.

No, we can quantify the PT characters powers because they actually do something, we see them in movies, cartoons, comics and novels, not just in a cutscene with no text whatsoever supporting it.

This isn't adressing the point as the nature of the mediums have nothing to dith it but rather than nature of relative and constant performances.

They were charging at her with a lightsaber, so ready to engage in a lightsaber fight, not ready for a Force attack from her, by the time she performed it they didn’t have the time anymore to get their defenses up.

No, they were standing still with their lightsabers ready, indicating that they were battle ready, but not necessarily indicative that they were solely engaged in protecting themselves in a lightsaber battle (their opponent wasn't even armed with a lightsaber, and the lightsabers could have been prepared for a potential lightning attack for instance). Again, that they had just been assualted with the Force by an unarmed opponent would have registered to them that a Force attack was their opponent's most likely form of attack. It butchers all sound applications of probability to assume that they wouldn't have tried to defend themselves against a Force attack.

Fisto at least has been quoted to be one of the finest swordsman the order had ever produced.

By Mace and Obi-Wan, fallible characters, and not the omniscient narrator.

Which pieces of evidence?

The existence of such things as Obi-Wan's unconventional win over Darth Maul.

Which from the previous debate implied it was RotS? I look at the OP, and just as we’re not employing Traya as a kid, we’re not using a weaker version of Sidious.

The grouping of Sidious and Traya with teammates who all operated at the same point in time and the previous debate seeming to assume Sidious's RotS incarnation without the TC correcting them on the matter all implied as much, though again, it's of no consequence, so drop it.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Because I acted any differently in that lost post to how I have been this entire time? Or is it because I continue to provide overwhelming evidence that Sidious's team gets beaten quite easily that you now bring this up?

No, because you continue to argue fallacies, and project your "common sense" into your argument, but MOSTLY because you are ignoring MULTIPLE statements of Sidious's superiority. The fact that you tried to declare the one source In-Universe, when in fact, it is definitly Out of Universe Omniscient, undeniably,

For these reasons I know the truth now.

...And the truth will set you free...

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Again, all any of that deserves is a big: 😬

I'm going to try to take this into a different direction before I go back to respond to it.

Slash, do you believe that we can definitively prove that either team would defeat the other in a hypothetical battle? (Y/N)

All of you’re posts deserve a facepalm. Irrelevant how? I initially responded to you saying that “Sidious's team gets manhandled”. Which I disproved.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I'm going to choose to ignore everything that I've already adequately addressed as you seem to now be arguing in circles and constantly resuming already defeated points, and I'm going to also ignore your ridiculous "no you" counter comments where I've already explained how exactly you're wrong on the subject and your blatant lies on the subject of what exactly I've been sourcing and the evidence I've been providing.

I’m countering all of your supposed arguments with proof while providing some of my own (which you seem to dismiss) and you’re just too thickheaded to know when you’re wrong.

I'd also invite you to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_indirect_speech . Refer to the post above for the continuation of the topic on whether we can apply probability to this outcome. The discussion of DE's canonical status can continue in the Savage Opress thread.

Who are we to discuss the canonical status of DE? DE has the Star Wars license and doesn’t directly contradict anything else except for maybe that Prophecy, but you can give any kind of twist to it so it doesn’t contradict the movies. Who made the prophecy- how accurate is it, does it refer to destroying the Sith once and not forever. Lucas himself has stated that he doesn’t get too involved in the parallel universe. He also said that to him, Boba Fett died in the movies. But in the EU he considers him alive.

Well if you want to discuss the general ability to locate your awareness across the space-time continuum (which is far more isolated from the mechanics of a combat situation than their respective domination of other Force Users), she does display awareness of events that take place thousands of the years into the future. Meanwhile, the likes of Plo Koon have demonstrated the ability to communicate telepathically on different sides of the Galaxy, so what we have again is that Traya has displayed something else that's unprecedented in nature whereas Vader has displayed something met by a relatively unspectacular Jedi Master.

Well, vaguely seeing the future is not the same as actively using the Force on a person. Sensing something is also different than actually harming someone. Jedi can sense stuff on a large scale but to physically harm someone is much more impressive than anything Kreia has done.

This isn't adressing the point as the nature of the mediums have nothing to dith it but rather than nature of relative and constant performances.

I don’t think you know how to substantiate your points. Vader’s background is vast and detailed, what do we know about Traya’s abilities? She managed to kill three Jedi Masters who haven’t proven anything to make them even significant. I’m not impressed. N. is the only one who has actually demonstrated some considerable Force abilities.

By Mace and Obi-Wan, fallible characters, and not the omniscient narrator.

Why would they lie about it? Both characters are skilled with a lightsaber, so they know when someone else is skilled and they are part of the Jedi Order. Now, does Sion have anything told about him from an omniscient narrator that refers to his combat abilities?

The existence of such things as Obi-Wan's unconventional win over Darth Maul.

I meant evidence as to how Revan defeated Malak. Did he duel with a lightsaber, used the Force, which Force powers, did he use grenades, mines, blasters, sneaky tactics, destroyed the captives himself, got beaten down by Malak and used a distraction to avoid death, …? What happened there?

If we got the exact same information about the Obi-Wan duel, we’d just have: Qui-Gon died, then Obi-Wan attacked Maul in a spectacular duel and eventually defeated him. So according to your logic, Obi-Wan is better than Maul.

The grouping of Sidious and Traya with teammates who all operated at the same point in time and the previous debate seeming to assume Sidious's RotS incarnation without the TC correcting them on the matter all implied as much, though again, it's of no consequence, so drop it.

Alright.

Originally posted by truejedi
No, because you continue to argue fallacies, and project your "common sense" into your argument, but MOSTLY because you are ignoring MULTIPLE statements of Sidious's superiority. The fact that you tried to declare the one source In-Universe, when in fact, it is definitly Out of Universe Omniscient, undeniably,

For these reasons I know the truth now.

Exactly, I don't know how anyone can be so caught up in their own world to ignore all this evidence that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord.

He tries everything to downplay Sidious, even by dismissing DE as not Canon so he doesn't have Force Storm as an ability.

Slash, do you believe that we can definitively prove that either team would defeat the other in a hypothetical battle? (Y/N)

Originally posted by truejedi
No, because you continue to argue fallacies,

Any examples?

and project your "common sense" into your argument,

"common sense" as in literature analysis and probability?

but MOSTLY because you are ignoring MULTIPLE statements of Sidious's superiority.

Because I don't definitively assume just one interpretation that doesn't even fit in with the wider canon?

The fact that you tried to declare the one source In-Universe, when in fact, it is definitly Out of Universe Omniscient, undeniably,

You're clearly confused; the New Essential Chronology is presented as an encyclopedia that exists within the SW Universe. It's written by Vor'en Nall, a member of a league of historians that worked for the New Republic. There are also sections added in by Tionne, Jedi Master during the NJO. From the perspective of "our world" looking into the "fictional world of Star Wars", there is no omniscient narrator. Everything that is stated in the NEC is the opinion or perception of fact (or possibly even a lie or feigned opinion) of a fallible character within the SW Universe, possibly even edited over.

For these reasons I know the truth now.

Please. If anything you've established that Neb and I are alike in that we're both competent individuals. A trait I've been displaying the entire time I've been here, and that a lot of you lack in abundance.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
"common sense" as in literature analysis and probability?

More "throwing out the things that I don't like while making my own conclusions with no substantiation behind them".

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Slash, do you believe that we can definitively prove that either team would defeat the other in a hypothetical battle? (Y/N)

We can definitely prove that Sidious' team has a larger chance of winning this proposed simulation than Traya's team. Ofcourse when Sidious or others on his team suddenly cramp up real bad than Traya's team may ofcourse emerge victorious.

In other words, no.

So, do you accept that the only way to fulfill the purpose of this thread is to argue which outcome is more probable?

Stay out of this RE.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
In other words, no.

So, do you accept that the only way to fulfill the purpose of this thread is to argue which outcome is more probable?

Using facts and proof which certain characters are supported with much more than others.

In other words, yes.

So you accept that probability has to be applied to reach a conclusion?