Originally posted by NCRotCA
I'm not saying that any one of those individual Jedi are at the same level as Dooku or Vader, what I'm saying is that the ability that domination of all three Jedi Masters likely required goes beyond what we can say for Dooku or Vader. Minimal effort, three of them, all at once, on a lightside nexus. I don't think we've ever seen such a direct dominating display against Force Users anywhere else, period, let alone from simply the likes of Dooku or Vader.
We haven't seen the exact same feat from them, but they have done much more impressive stuff. Still, you can't quantify the three Jedi Masters powers so it still does not mean anything. What's to stop Vader from just snapping Traya's neck before she even thinks about using an attack? He can crush material as strong as durasteel and Force Choke someone on the other side of the Galaxy.
And again, Golden Age of the Jedi, more powerful jedi, you've established neither of these things.
It’s been stated by George Lucas himself. You have yet to establish the three Jedi Masters compared to the PT Jedi Masters…
At what point? The beginning of the duel she likely didn't know an attack was coming, and once the attack had already been initiated it would have been much harder to defend against. Not to mention even if she knew the attack was coming and was in the best position to defend against it she likely wouldn't have. Fighting back in her eyes might have simply been futile; not only could she possibly have a heightened sense of how powerful Dooku really is, but it's also likely that even if she could partially defend against the attack and force Dooku to apply more effort he'd still be able to have her at his mercy all the same. End result would be the same, even if it would require more effort on Dooku's part to do it against an opponent that was defending themself. Not to mention, and as she would have liekly imagined, it was just a test/lesson and he wasn't actually trying to kill her or anything. it would suit her position and purpose better to just let Dooku get on with it.
You’re making this up. There is no evidence whatsoever that Ventress didn’t want to fight back. She had already fought him in a lightsaber duel but now she all of a sudden decides to not do anything?
Perhaps he didn't, though it is possible, but either way the point is that it can't be established that Asajj offered any resistance whatsoever and in all likelihood she didn't, meaning, for all intents and purposes, she was a defenceless non force sensitive in this scenario.
You can’t establish that the Jedi Masters formed any kind of defense against the Force drain. Perhaps Traya was lucky that they didn’t defend themselves and that’s the only reason she could perform the little trick. See, speculation goes both ways.
Perhaps not but I've seen things greater.
Me too, but then again, I’ve seen better feats than those of any on Traya’s team. Point is, Dooku performed a powerful and refined use of the Force.
I believe Nephthys would like to respond to this, though I'd quickly point out her single handed progression through the Trayus Academy, filled to the brim with agents of the Sith, and her following "stalemate" of Sion and defeat of Traya as something that was extremely impressive.
You can only call something impressive if the people she defeated were impressive themselves. Traya couldn’t perform her Force Drain like DE said so we don’t know whether the Exile could even take that and aside from that there is nothing to suggest that Traya is even more powerful than Kit Fisto. Same counts for Sion and those others unknown goons.
Why would The Exile be convinced that she couldn't kill Sion without exhausting such an immediately obvious avenue? The likelihood is that his ability in some way prevents it.
Likelihood, not certainty. There is no actual proof that the Exile tried it, we sure as hell don’t see it in the game.
And The Exile by all available evidence is of the calibre of people far greater than Sidious and Co.
You do like to say stuff without backing it up, do you. Please EXPLAIN why the Exile is supposedly of the caliber of people far greater than Sidious. I have evidence that Sidious is more powerful and I will provide it soon.
I never said the ability alone necessarily made him superior to somebody that couldn't achieve the ability, but that the ability still speaks volumes about his capabilities that can't be said for the others on Sidious's team. Ignoring the benefit to combat it provides, the unique and unprecedented nature of it implies incredible ability. You see people do great things and it's generally indicative of great capabilities. Forgive me if I fail to be quite as impressed by the small scale TK and lightning we see from the members of Sidious's team.
This is getting ridiculous, you obviously don’t know anything that happens after TPM…
Do you not view that as being highly impressive? The same statement is the most impressive thing I believe could be said about someone like Sidious (and even then he faces competition for that spot by Yoda). I don't think he's displayed anything that goes beyond the impressiveness of that accolade, an accolade that Revan himself likely shares. I see no problem with saying that the two are likely on the same level, by all available evidence. If anything Revan was even more dominant within his era, the only real competition he faced being that of Malak, the second most powerful individual in the Galaxy it would seem, whilst receiving the external benefits of the Star Forge.
Sidious his era is an era with more powerful individuals. That’s fact.
I believe Nephthys would also like to respond to this, though what kind of details?
Well I'm not going to read all of that... Could you perhaps highlight the only necessary pieces of evidence and points that provide such a proof?
Are you kidding? bash
“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84)
“The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.” (Death Star, page 76)
“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)
I can’t believe I’m actually chewing your food while you do not even come close to providing evidence like this.
Just because the same magnitude of the attack cannot likely be applied on a smaller scale with far more limited time, it doesn't mean it's useless. It still demonstrates incredible ability, that can still be called upon with less time and on a more confined area, even if not to quite the same magnitude.
Can you prove it? Sidious has something that works much faster: Force Storm:
The most powerful destructive ability demonstrated by Palpatine was the ability to create hyperspace wormholes called Force Storms. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia defines a Force Storm as “a tornado of energy created by great disturbances in the Force.” The Dark Empire Sourcebook states the following:
“This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. This power allows [Palpatine] to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force.” It mentions that Force Storms are powerful enough to “swallow whole fleets of spaceships and tear surfaces off worlds.”
His clones are never stated to be much more powerful than the real thing, and the implication seems to be that this is RotS Sidious. Anyway refer to the Savage Opress thread for my reasoning on why DE Sidious's displays should be disregarded.
Yes, they have been stated to be more powerful… He himself even tells Luke he has grown stronger in the Force, just like Luke himself. Also, where did you get the impression that this isn’t Sidious at his peak just like everyone else?
Originally posted by NCRotCAUnless of course the three masters in question are a bunch of featless nobodies.
OK I just watched it (one of the coolest scenes in the entire mythos 😎 ) and yes, it turns out I had remembered incorrecty, the camera does focus solely on the Jedi Masters during the attack. However we do get to see Traya before and afterwards and she continues to talk in a normal manner so we can say that at the very least the attack didn't drain her or show any after effects of a real exertion. We do also get to see her when she throws them around with telekinesis and she doesn't even display any movement whatsoever. But whatever, I retract that tiny part of my statement, the exact outward demonstration of effort she displayed as she performed the attack cannot be determined. Matters little though, annihilating three prepared Jedi High Council Masters at once on a lightside nexus is still phenomenally impressive, regardless of how much of an effort it was.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
We haven't seen the exact same feat from them, but they have done much more impressive stuff.
Like what?
Still, you can't quantify the three Jedi Masters powers so it still does not mean anything.
Their powers don't have to be exactly quantified for us to be able to say that the likelihood is that it was an incredible feat, and for the record, I don't think the powers of anybody can be perfectly quantified. The vast, vast majority of feats displayed by the PT Jedi/Sith are in relation to another entity, who's worth in most cases is also determiend by in relation to another entity. Even the few constant displays we see from them (such as applying telekinesis to an object) don't allow perfect quantifications of their abilities as we can't say for certain how much effort they were exerting, or whether there were any extenuating circumstances, such as a particularly strong Force presence on the location they were operating (and for the record what constant displays there are are vastly outclassed by feats from others throughout the mythos, so if you wanted to argue that the PT Jedi/Sith were especially powerful in the first place you would be forced to fall back on where they stand, relative to their peers and their time period). It's not possible to undeniably prove almost anything in this forum so we're forced to argue what is more probable, where displays of relative superiority are completely adequate in supporting an argument.
What's to stop Vader from just snapping Traya's neck before she even thinks about using an attack? He can crush material as strong as durasteel and Force Choke someone on the other side of the Galaxy.
The fact that she has displayed herself to be a relatively more powerful Force User?
It’s been stated by George Lucas himself. You have yet to establish the three Jedi Masters compared to the PT Jedi Masters…
Exact source and quote, please. If it's anything like the other stuff you've sourced I'm sure it doesn't definitively establish what you think it does.
You’re making this up.
I'm making up that it's entirely possible all of that was the case? I didn't say it definitely was.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Ventress didn’t want to fight back. She had already fought him in a lightsaber duel but now she all of a sudden decides to not do anything?
She had fought him in a lightsaber duel before they had formed their master/apprentice relationship. When Dooku's simply giving her a [painful] test/lesson or simply playing around with her for a bit, why fight back and cause it to escalate into a real battle where the outcome, from her perspective, would remain the same, only Dooku would likely kill her afterwards? It would suit her interests far more to just let him get on with it.
And again, there's the fact that it's likely, and fully possible, that she wouldn't have been prepared to defend against it in the first place.
You can’t establish that the Jedi Masters formed any kind of defense against the Force drain.
They were all facing a being they recognised as a Force User with thir ligthsabers drawn and in a battle stance, aware that she had just assualted all of them with the Force. They had the opportunity as well as a need to defend themselves. Asajj had no such opportunity.
Perhaps Traya was lucky that they didn’t defend themselves and that’s the only reason she could perform the little trick. See, speculation goes both ways.
There's such a thing as probable speculation and improbable speculation, and applying the latter does nothing to discredit the former.
Me too, but then again, I’ve seen better feats than those of any on Traya’s team. Point is, Dooku performed a powerful and refined use of the Force.
Refined, perhaps. Powerful, I wouldn't quite say so as it was a precision attack.
You can only call something impressive if the people she defeated were impressive themselves.
Their powers don't have to be exactly quantified for us to be able to say that the likelihood is that it was an incredible feat, and for the record, I don't think the powers of anybody can be [i]perfectly quantified. The vast, vast majority of feats displayed by the PT Jedi/Sith are in relation to another entity, who's worth in most cases is also determiend by in relation to another entity. Even the few constant displays we see from them (such as applying telekinesis to an object) don't allow perfect quantifications of their abilities as we can't say for certain how much effort they were exerting, or whether there were any extenuating circumstances, such as a particularly strong Force presence on the location they were operating (and for the record what constant displays there are are vastly outclassed by feats from others throughout the mythos, so if you wanted to argue that the PT Jedi/Sith were especially powerful in the first place you would be forced to fall back on where they stand, relative to their peers and their time period). It's not possible to undeniably prove almost anything in this forum so we're forced to argue what is more probable, where displays of relative superiority are completely adequate in supporting an argument.[/i]
Traya couldn’t perform her Force Drain like DE said so we don’t know whether the Exile could even take that
Why assume her incredible power would be exclusive to that technique in the first place? We see her knock the Jedi Masters back just as easily with her telekinesis and she quite easily defeats an entire crowd of Sith Assassins who were all of a similar nature to The Exile with some kind of technique. Her ability is demonstrated to be incredible dominating, drain or otherwise.
and aside from that there is nothing to suggest that Traya is even more powerful than Kit Fisto. Same counts for Sion and those others unknown goons.
A big: 😬 is all you deserve for that comment...
And I'd be interested in examining why exactly it is that I see a group of Force Users who display some of the most unique, unprecedented, dominating displays of Force use in the entire mythos, and you on the other hand see a group of "unknown goons".
Likelihood, not certainty. There is no actual proof that the Exile tried it, we sure as hell don’t see it in the game.
It doesn't have to be a certainty.
You do like to say stuff without backing it up, do you. Please EXPLAIN why the Exile is supposedly of the caliber of people far greater than Sidious. I have evidence that Sidious is more powerful and I will provide it soon.
Again: her progression through the Trayus Academy, holding Sion back repeatedly, and defeat of Traya, as a demonstration of endurance and immediate ability, is beyond anything we see from Sdious's team. She's displayed the ability to compete with/defeat some of the most impressive, dominating Force Users int he entire mythos, and she does all of it in between having to fight her way through an entire army of Sith.
This is getting ridiculous, you obviously don’t know anything that happens after TPM…
What do we see after TPM that's canon and conflicts with what I was saying?
Sidious his era is an era with more powerful individuals. That’s fact.
Powerful? Relative term. The most powerful, which is what you were saying earlier, yet to be established.
How he defeated any of his powerful opponents? How did he defeat Malak? We don’t know how the fight went. I could tell you Obi-Wan in TPM beat Darth Maul, is Obi-Wan more powerful than Maul then?
When you apply probability, as a general rule you don't take into account anamolous pieces of evidence. The manne rin which Obi-Wan defeated Maul is not the norm. The likelihood is that it was done in a conventional manner that displayed superiority (and it's certainly what Malak seems to acknowledge afterwards).
Are you kidding? bash“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84)
In-Universe Source. No Omniscient narrator.
“The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.” (Death Star, page 76)
I'll get to this in a second.
“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)
Which heavily matches the description of free indirect discourse. the narrator puts the thought onto the perspective of Vader by saying "Vader imagined" first, and then goes on to directly state something that perfectly matches what Vader may have been thinking. You can not establish this to be from the Omniscient Narrator.
I can’t believe I’m actually chewing your food while you do not even come close to providing evidence like this.
So I'm supposed to read an entire several page essay to guage your point just because you refused to provide evidence in a concise manner?
Can you prove it? Sidious has something that works much faster: Force Storm:The most powerful destructive ability demonstrated by Palpatine was the ability to create hyperspace wormholes called Force Storms. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia defines a Force Storm as “a tornado of energy created by great disturbances in the Force.” The Dark Empire Sourcebook states the following:
“This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. This power allows [Palpatine] to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force.” It mentions that Force Storms are powerful enough to “swallow whole fleets of spaceships and tear surfaces off worlds.”
Savage Opress.
Yes, they have been stated to be more powerful… He himself even tells Luke he has grown stronger in the Force, just like Luke himself. Also, where did you get the impression that this isn’t Sidious at his peak just like everyone else?
Saying that he's mroe powerful, which I'm sure he was, is not the same as actually being astronomically more powerful than his previous depictions. It does not constitute as a reasonable explanation. And just because he was a clone when he said that doesn't mean it was because he was a clone... And something about the previous debate implied that it was RotS but whatever we can use RotJ.
The Death Star Quote
"Vader could sense the hostility of some of the men behind Tarkin, but that was of no importance. Hostile words or actions he could and would deal with, but thoughts of the weak-minded were no threat.
Tarkin, oily and smooth as always, was a man who knew where his best interests lay, and as long as his own plans matched those of the Emperor, he was a useful tool. Which was good, because Vader would not hesitate to use that tool.
The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.
As would Vader be, someday.
But that was in the future. Now he had more mundane duties. There were problems with the construction of this station. When Vader left, those problems would be corrected. He would return as necessary to correct more troubles as they appeared, and he would also return at times when things were proceeding smoothly, just to remind Tarkin and his senior officers that the Emperor's eye was always watching them.
Always."
Exact same thing as the Vader: the Ultimate Guide quote. Begins by placing the perspective on Vader's thoughts, and then directly describes things that perfectly go in line with what Vader could be thinking.