The so called "Most Powerful Sith Lord Ever"

I see an Ancient Sith basher. 🙂 Good points. But I never attempted to discredit Sidious. And I agree with you that he accomplished more in terms of conquering than any other Sith before him. I never denied that. You must have misunderstood; or jumped to conclusions.

I merely stated that Sidious did not control the entire galaxy. How is this discrediting him? The fact that he became the Galactic Emperor speaks of nigh unrivaled accomplishments. Nigh.

And what theory would that be? The one that Bane isn't most powerful? Or the one I just responded to?

Bane being the most powerful? I dunno. But not the one I was referring to. I meant the one about the unknown space of territory. Do you have any evidence that indicates that Sidious only controlled a small portion of the galaxy?

AND. I don't bash Ancient Sith unless someone bashes first. You bashed, I bash back. And it's bashing time! -hits Windu-

-clobbers Somebody over the head with SIdious' dead old body-

And I didn't say Sidious controlled a SMALL portion of the Galaxy; no way the Empire is small. Just that he didn't control all of it. NO one evr did. But he came damn close. But this doesn't even have bearing on the topic, so drop it. -clobbers Somebody again-

And I didn't bash. Quote me.

Don't make me get Great Vengeance or Clawed The Bum after you, lol.

-runs away-

-comes back with Dark Lord of the Jawas and his Jawa army-

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I don't see any real evidence to say that Sidious did not control the galaxy. Was it referred to as the "known" galaxy? I seem to recall it stated just as "the galaxy". Nothing was ever hinted that there was more to it. Some will argue this: Well, where did the Yuuzhan Vong come from, then?

He also never controled the "known" galaxy. The galaxy remained under the control of the Galactic Senate from ROTS to ANH. Then Palpatine dissolved the Galactic Senate and his own gouvernors took over certain "regions" of space (star systems).

So the first fact is that Palpatine never controlled the Galaxy on his own.

Second: From all we have seen in the movies the Empire didn't control all the worlds in the known galaxy. Planets like Bespin, Hoth, Alderaan, Yavin (outer rim territory) and so on weren't under control of the Empire. It's simply impossible to control an entire galaxy. And the Rebellion is the proof for that.

Third: Their were entire sectors that weren't under Sidious control. The entire Hutt space, the ancient Sith Empire, the Tion Hegemony and great parts of the Outer Rim.

And to this, I have a reply. The Vong existed outside of the Outer Rim. Essentially, in another galaxy. There is a SINGLE universe, but billions upon billions of galaxies. We are, for example, in the spiral Milky Way galaxy. Yet there are much more - larger and smaller - out there.

Many planets beyond the outer rim didn't belong to the Empire. For example all planets that belonged to the Sith Empire before. But they aren't in another galaxy. Their are groups of galaxies with a "main" galaxy and serveral smaller galaxies around them. For example: If you take a look on the star maps in AOTC the "Outer Rim" seems to be a sub-galaxy.
So another "main" galaxy could be 50 million lightyears away from the SW galaxy and that means: The Millenium Falcon being the fastest ship in the SW universe would need 1 year in hyperspace to travel to the next galaxy. Notice that nobody in the history of the SW universe did ever travel that far.

Perhaps it is possible that Sidious controlled only a small portion of the galaxy. Yet I believe this is, again, an attempt to squander or discredit him - as to make it sound like a little achievement. So let me go further.

He had indirect control over serveral hundrets or thousands of planets. Still his "control" was not absolute.

IF Sidious only controlled a small portion of the galaxy, it was sure as hell more than any other known Sith Lord OR monarch controlled. And that, in itself, is a great achievement.

Oh well. The ancient Dark Lords reigned over the entire Sith Empire. We know that this is not as big as the Republic but the Sith Empire was wealthier, had a higher developed technology and it was directly controlled by the Dark Lord. Sidious was on top of a government that reigned great parts of the known galaxy but he didn't do that alone.

Sidious came closer than anyone else. I advise you to remember that. Positive bias is bad. Negative bias is equally so. Darth Windu, I see some valid points from you. But Sidious DID control the galaxy (may or may not be just the KNOWN galaxy). But it was more - as far as we know - than what anyone else controlled.

He reigned over it but he did never control it. That's the problem.

Remember that achievement. Respect that achievement. As none of your precious Ancient Sith Lords (again, as far as we know) ever accomplished more. And that is a fact YOU can't argue. 😄

And you can't argue that the things Sidious/Palpatine archieved were archieved through diplomatic or politic tactics but NOT through sheer physical strength or force power. What Sidious did was nice, yes. But in a duel he would go down vs EVERY ancient Sith Lord.

I don't believe it! They closed, Janus's disclaimer thread!

Damn it. I hate when Nai interferes. I was on the brink of victory. Curse ye, NAI!!!! 🙁

Haja for victory... but they closed my thread?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...not everything is based on assumptions. We know what Sadow was able to do and we know that even he - with all his abilities - feared Ragnos. That are facts. The assumptions are there but still they are covered by some evidence we have.

For the spirits:
Is it realy an assumption that spirits get weaker ? We have at least Kun spirit to compare with Kuns "normal" abilities. Would you say Kuns spirit is as powerful as Kun alive ? I don't think so. So if somebody who drained an entire race lifeforce to remain as a spirit on a planet loses power - why shouldn't the ancient Sith Lords.

Also "power" is both: physical and mental. And well...the "physical" component of the power is obviously gone when somebody is only around as a spirit.

And as a last point: If the ancient Sith Lords spirits were as powerful as the Sith Lords alive (meaning as strong with the force) shouldn't they even be more powerful several hundrets or thousand years AFTER their death ? Actualy that time would give them the ability to learn more about the force and we know for example that Kun needed serveral thousands years of training to communicate with other force users while the ancient Sith could do so directly after their death.

Finaly, just to add another information on "defeating death". Simus (who was Dark Lord before Ragnos and trained Naga Sadow) was beheaded by Ragnos and he used his sheer power to remain "alive" as a talking head to the entire reign of Ragnos (so over a century). Well...I call that quite "powerful" (not to say "impossible"😉.

All Sadow did was use sith magic to detonate the core of a star. While impressive, it's not really all powerful. Kyp who was barely trained, maybe knight level, could ressurect the sun crusher from the heart of Yavin (or a star for that matter) most likely without Kun's spirit's help as he says later but at the time Kun's spirit helped out a little bit. Revan controlled a star. So on and so forth. I wouldn't be surprised if others could do that, but no one has been that desperate and/or stupid.

About Spirits: I didn't mean to say that the spirits are as strong as the original, they aren't. Spirits obviously only represent a designated portion of the original power. I just don't think there's any reason to believe they get weaker over time. They're spirits, and some, due to using the dark side to sustain them or whatever, shouldn't grow weaker since they're spirits. The spirits don't age or change appearance at all so they wouldn't get weaker either, IMO.

Simus preserved his head in a jar with sith magic, just like Sadow used the sith magic to detonate the cores of stars. No one past Kun used Sith magic, and with that magic the had different abilities which could help in a fight, yet it's not pure Force they are relying on, rather, it's techniques lost over time.

Where does it say specifically that Sith lords of Revan's time DIDN'T use Sith magic?

All Sadow did was use sith magic to detonate the core of a star. While impressive, it's not really all powerful. Kyp who was barely trained, maybe knight level, could ressurect the sun crusher from the heart of Yavin (or a star for that matter) most likely without Kun's spirit's help as he says later but at the time Kun's spirit helped out a little bit. Revan controlled a star. So on and so forth. I wouldn't be surprised if others could do that, but no one has been that desperate and/or stupid.

Wow, there's a lot of bending of facts here. You like to cite Revan had control of a star, he didn't -- the starforge did and he had control of that.

Guess what? We as humans can already control stars and use their energy, it's called SOLAR PANELS. But we could also fire all of our weapons, nuclear or not, at the Sun and it would do jack; not to mention our Sun is not one of the biggest stars around. The amount of power, force or magic or not, required to detonate the core of a star, even a small star, would be absolutely stupendous.

You're right, Kyp was aided by Kun, and they together did an impressive feat.

As for being desperate and/or stupid, blowing up Stars can certainly be convenient, if you want to completely destroy a planet and don't have a handy dandy Death Star, that's the way to go.

About Spirits: I didn't mean to say that the spirits are as strong as the original, they aren't. Spirits obviously only represent a designated portion of the original power. I just don't think there's any reason to believe they get weaker over time. They're spirits, and some, due to using the dark side to sustain them or whatever, shouldn't grow weaker since they're spirits. The spirits don't age or change appearance at all so they wouldn't get weaker either, IMO.

Obi-Wan's spirit expired, you see Ragnos' spirit needing to be charged by force power from PLANETS just to be able to rise out from his sarcophagus. There's more evidence to the idea that spirits do diminish rather than they remain the same. We don't have all the facts, but off the facts we do now, it's a reasonable deduction.

Simus preserved his head in a jar with sith magic, just like Sadow used the sith magic to detonate the cores of stars. No one past Kun used Sith magic, and with that magic the had different abilities which could help in a fight, yet it's not pure Force they are relying on, rather, it's techniques lost over time.

First off, I'll have to agree with Janus, where does it say no one after Kun used Sith Magic? And where does it say that Sith Magic would not be effective in battle?

Simus FOUGHT Ragnos, and was considered the most powerful FIGHTER of the Sith Empire in his time. I'd assume he'd be able to defend himself without needing to blow up a star. There's no evidence to say that Sith Magic would be useless in battle and is merely a series of techniques. Simus was a Sith Magician and the most powerful of the Sith during his time, that seems to imply that Sith Magic has a way on the battlefield.

Exactly... Even Sidious may have used Sith magic. Who knows?

Sion used Sith Magic to keep his body in order. Bane used it to survive the thought bomb if I'm not mistaken. Tyrannus used it to revive the Dark Reaper. Those are just off the top of my head. Let's admit Sids has a way with Force powers, I'm sure he dived into Sith magic a bit as well.

I'd be willing to bet Sids talking about Plagues midichlorian manipulation was about Sith magic.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
All Sadow did was use sith magic to detonate the core of a star. While impressive, it's not really all powerful. Kyp who was barely trained, maybe knight level, could ressurect the sun crusher from the heart of Yavin (or a star for that matter) most likely without Kun's spirit's help as he says later but at the time Kun's spirit helped out a little bit. Revan controlled a star. So on and so forth. I wouldn't be surprised if others could do that, but no one has been that desperate and/or stupid.

Well...He channeled his Sith magic (through his ship) and thereby detonated the core of a star. Urm...that's pretty impressive. And please: Don't use that statement that Revan controlled a star. He controlled an ancient technological artifact that took energy from a planet.

If that is "controling a star" then Tarkin must be allmighty because he could destroy planets. Having control over technology that can do something for you is not the same than doing it yourself.

About Spirits: I didn't mean to say that the spirits are as strong as the original, they aren't. Spirits obviously only represent a designated portion of the original power. I just don't think there's any reason to believe they get weaker over time. They're spirits, and some, due to using the dark side to sustain them or whatever, shouldn't grow weaker since they're spirits. The spirits don't age or change appearance at all so they wouldn't get weaker either, IMO.

Oh well...I got you wrong on that point.
Still I'd say they get weaker over time. Just think of Ragnos:
- immediatly after his death he could just come back and tell Sadow and Kressh what to do.
- 1,000 years later the power of two Sith amuletts is needed to make him reappear and say that Exar Kun would be the new Sith Lord.
- another 4,000 years later the energy of planets is needed to make him reappear.

See...that's just logic. The contact of spirits to the "normal" world fades the longer they are death. Their presence gets weaker. That's maybe compareable to the memory of people. In KotoR times everybody might know who Exar Kun was (like most people in Germany can tell you who Helmut Kohl was). Now ask todays people in Egypt who Imhotep was...

Simus preserved his head in a jar with sith magic, just like Sadow used the sith magic to detonate the cores of stars. No one past Kun used Sith magic, and with that magic the had different abilities which could help in a fight, yet it's not pure Force they are relying on, rather, it's techniques lost over time.

Well...we simply can't tell what does belong to "Sith Magic". Cloud once presence within the force seems to be a typical "Sith" ability (Exar Kun, Sidious) as well as force lightning. At least we never saw a Jedi using that kind of powers were it could have been quite useful. So...even Sidious might have used Sith magic. And if force lightning can be counted as "sith magic" those abilities can be quite useful in a battle.

Force lightning is actually called Sith lightning, too.

-Tags out to Nai Fohl-