Originally posted by Darth SomebodyJust to top it off, Palpatine DIDN'T control the entire galaxy. The unknown regions themselves took up at least a quarter of the galaxy, though he did send Thrawn to explore them.
Okay. Darth Janus is the one who is going to be hardest here to prove wrong, but I'll try my best.I don't see any real evidence to say that Sidious did not control the galaxy. Was it referred to as the "known" galaxy? I seem to recall it stated just as "the galaxy". Nothing was ever hinted that there was more to it. Some will argue this: Well, where did the Yuuzhan Vong come from, then?
And to this, I have a reply. The Vong existed outside of the Outer Rim. Essentially, in another galaxy. There is a SINGLE universe, but billions upon billions of galaxies. We are, for example, in the spiral Milky Way galaxy. Yet there are much more - larger and smaller - out there.
Perhaps it is possible that Sidious controlled only a small portion of the galaxy. Yet I believe this is, again, an attempt to squander or discredit him - as to make it sound like a little achievement. So let me go further.
IF Sidious only controlled a small portion of the galaxy, it was sure as hell more than any other known Sith Lord OR monarch controlled. And that, in itself, is a great achievement.
Sidious came closer than anyone else. I advise you to remember that. Positive bias is bad. Negative bias is equally so. Darth Windu, I see some valid points from you. But Sidious DID control the galaxy (may or may not be just the KNOWN galaxy). But it was more - as far as we know - than what anyone else controlled.
Remember that achievement. Respect that achievement. As none of your precious Ancient Sith Lords (again, as far as we know) ever accomplished more. And that is a fact YOU can't argue. 😄
But, if you look at the official maps they give you in the books, you can see that Palpatines control was lengthy. From Bakura to Bastion, from Bilbringi to Honoghr, From Coruscant to Kessel to Mon Calomari, all of these on or near the farthest reaches of the known galaxy. You can't deny that even if the Empire didn't enforce its own will on these planets, it certainly had quite the influence on them. Even the Corporate Sector on the far arm of the galaxy was dealing with the Empire.
Oh, and apparently the Vong had been floating around in between the SW galaxy and the Yuuzhan Vong one, after it had been "killed" in their own civil war. Although, Zonama Sekot was their original ancient home planet, and it moved over to the SW galaxy, so I guess you could work something in there.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...He channeled his Sith magic (through his ship) and thereby detonated the core of a star. Urm...that's pretty impressive. And please: Don't use that statement that Revan controlled a star. He controlled an ancient technological artifact that took energy from a planet.If that is "controling a star" then Tarkin must be allmighty because he could destroy planets. Having control over technology that can do something for you is not the same than doing it yourself.
Oh well...I got you wrong on that point.
Still I'd say they get weaker over time. Just think of Ragnos:
- immediatly after his death he could just come back and tell Sadow and Kressh what to do.
- 1,000 years later the power of two Sith amuletts is needed to make him reappear and say that Exar Kun would be the new Sith Lord.
- another 4,000 years later the energy of planets is needed to make him reappear.See...that's just logic. The contact of spirits to the "normal" world fades the longer they are death. Their presence gets weaker. That's maybe compareable to the memory of people. In KotoR times everybody might know who Exar Kun was (like most people in Germany can tell you who Helmut Kohl was). Now ask todays people in Egypt who Imhotep was...
Well...we simply can't tell what does belong to "Sith Magic". Cloud once presence within the force seems to be a typical "Sith" ability (Exar Kun, Sidious) as well as force lightning. At least we never saw a Jedi using that kind of powers were it could have been quite useful. So...even Sidious might have used Sith magic. And if force lightning can be counted as "sith magic" those abilities can be quite useful in a battle.
Why isn't it controlling a star? No one except Revan and Malak were powerful enough to control it. Hundreds died trying. That wouldn't happen from an ordinary space station like the Death Star. Why would someone have to be strong enough to control the Star Forge? Because it's siphoning power from a star and it needs a powerful leader or it will atrophy and be destroyed. That doesn't happen to normal space stations, but normal space stations aren't siphoning the power of a star and need someone powerful enough to control it. It can't siphon the power of a star without someone powerful enough, so that's why I say he can control a star.
Now, yes Ragnos could come back right after death, but 1000 years later it wasn't the amulets that let him speak. The Sith had returned and he naturally wanted to get them to work together. As for the power of locations being needed, Ragnos' spirit didn't want to be around for 5,000 years, unlike the two other times when he did want to be around. Even with all that Force energy, a not too shabby Force user, and a sith sword he still lost to a Jedi knight. Kun's spirit had the power of the massassi (like Ragnos had the power of many many locations) and Kun's spirit was more powerful without being inside a Force user.
Obi-Wan's spirit didn't need to be around, the Sith were gone and there was nothing more to teach Luke. Why do you think Sith's spirits are still around hundreds of years after they die, they wanted to come back. Sidious' spirit lasted much longer than Obi-Wan's, 10 years and it would've been more if it wasn't destroyed.
As for Sith magic, on most really good or official star wars data, it makes sure to mention that they used Sith magic back in ancient times and I believe up until Kun who used it a little but since then it is never mentioned again. Sadow is more of a Sith magician than a Sith lord, it's no wonder he can blow up stars if he spends all his time learning Sith magic instead of other skills which explains why he never defeated anyone in actual combat.
Why isn't it controlling a star? No one except Revan and Malak were powerful enough to control it. Hundreds died trying. That wouldn't happen from an ordinary space station like the Death Star.
Because Revan didn't sit on his own and use his own force power to control the star. The Star Forge had been around since the Rakatan Empire, it was THEIR crowning achievement. It would effectively be saying if you take over the Death Star and blow up a few planets, you're the most powerful person ever. Revan just tricked the Rakatans to putting it back into use. It's not like he built it with the force, or then manually used it with his force powers.
Naga Sadow literally CRUSHED a star and made it go supernova under his own abilities. He did not harnass ancient Rakatan technology.
What you're saying is if someone is a world class runner and can go at 15 miles an hour, but you have a car and can go at 80 miles an hour, the person with the car is "faster".
This may not be true because:
1) We don't know how fast the person in the car can run.
2) We don't know how fast the person running can drive.
It's the same issue. Do you KNOW Naga Sadow can't control the Star Forge? Has it mentioned he went and failed?
Naga Sadow's use of the force, in blowing up a star, is more impressive than Revan tricking the Rakatans to power the Star Forge.
Now, yes Ragnos could come back right after death, but 1000 years later it wasn't the amulets that let him speak. The Sith had returned and he naturally wanted to get them to work together.
That doesn't mean it didn't TAKE the two amulets to return. With Ludo and Naga, he could return on his own power. With Kun and Ulic, it took the two Sith amulets. Twist that however you want, it's still there.
As for the power of locations being needed, Ragnos' spirit didn't want to be around for 5,000 years, unlike the two other times when he did want to be around.
Canon reference?
Where does it say Ragnos does not want to stick around or return?
Even with all that Force energy, a not too shabby Force user, and a sith sword he still lost to a Jedi knight. Kun's spirit had the power of the massassi (like Ragnos had the power of many many locations) and Kun's spirit was more powerful without being inside a Force user.
The same Jedi Knight that had already killed hundreds of other force users (reborn, disciples). And Ragnos likely wasn't at full power, and it wasn't HIS own body. He was limited by a body he called "weak".
And by this same evidence, when he is vanquished, the cinematic (the most canon part of the games), claims he will return. That kinda defeats your line where you say "Ragnos' spirit didn't want to be around for 5000 years."
Kun's spirit had the power of the massassi (like Ragnos had the power of many many locations) and Kun's spirit was more powerful without being inside a Force user.
Kun's spirit was also over 1000 years younger, DID have the entire race's energy, AND was able to exist outside of a body. Ragnos' spirit couldn't do that, he ran from his sarcophagus into Tavion, and back again.
As for Sith magic, on most really good or official star wars data, it makes sure to mention that they used Sith magic back in ancient times and I believe up until Kun who used it a little but since then it is never mentioned again. Sadow is more of a Sith magician than a Sith lord, it's no wonder he can blow up stars if he spends all his time learning Sith magic instead of other skills which explains why he never defeated anyone in actual combat.
Ugh. Stop with the wild assumptions.
You're assuming two things here:
1) Sith Magic is useless in combat. Evidece to the contrary has already been presented in my previous post.
2) Sith Magic does not exist further in the timeline simply because it wasn't explicitly mentioned.
And how did Naga Sadow not beat anyone in actual combat, he did FIGHT a war, how on EARTH are you going to argue he can't beat anyone in combat?
That's like Sidious can't beat anyone in combat because he had all his underlings do it for him. This was obviously proven wrong when we LEARNED MORE ABOUT HIM (a la ROTS).
Originally posted by Illustrious
Because Revan didn't sit on his own and use his own force power to control the star. The Star Forge had been around since the Rakatan Empire, it was THEIR crowning achievement. It would effectively be saying if you take over the Death Star and blow up a few planets, you're the most powerful person ever. Revan just tricked the Rakatans to putting it back into use. It's not like he built it with the force, or then manually used it with his force powers.Naga Sadow literally CRUSHED a star and made it go supernova under his own abilities. He did not harnass ancient Rakatan technology.
What you're saying is if someone is a world class runner and can go at 15 miles an hour, but you have a car and can go at 80 miles an hour, the person with the car is "faster".
This may not be true because:
1) We don't know how fast the person in the car can run.
2) We don't know how fast the person running can drive.It's the same issue. Do you KNOW Naga Sadow can't control the Star Forge? Has it mentioned he went and failed?
Naga Sadow's use of the force, in blowing up a star, is more impressive than Revan tricking the Rakatans to power the Star Forge.
That doesn't mean it didn't TAKE the two amulets to return. With Ludo and Naga, he could return on his own power. With Kun and Ulic, it took the two Sith amulets. Twist that however you want, it's still there.
Canon reference?
Where does it say Ragnos does not want to stick around or return?
The same Jedi Knight that had already killed hundreds of other force users (reborn, disciples). And Ragnos likely wasn't at full power, and it wasn't HIS own body. He was limited by a body he called "weak".
And by this same evidence, when he is vanquished, the cinematic (the most canon part of the games), claims he will return. That kinda defeats your line where you say "Ragnos' spirit didn't want to be around for 5000 years."
Kun's spirit was also over 1000 years younger, DID have the entire race's energy, AND was able to exist outside of a body. Ragnos' spirit couldn't do that, he ran from his sarcophagus into Tavion, and back again.
Ugh. Stop with the wild assumptions.
You're assuming two things here:
1) Sith Magic is useless in combat. Evidece to the contrary has already been presented in my previous post.
2) Sith Magic does not exist further in the timeline simply because it wasn't explicitly mentioned.And how did Naga Sadow not beat anyone in actual combat, he did FIGHT a war, how on EARTH are you going to argue he can't beat anyone in combat?
That's like Sidious can't beat anyone in combat because he had all his underlings do it for him. This was obviously proven wrong when we LEARNED MORE ABOUT HIM (a la ROTS).
I agree with pretty much everything here except for the Raktan's powering up the Star Forge. They did not power it up all they did was grant, Revan access to their temple. Revan did the rest himself from there.
Originally posted by darthrevan89
I agree with pretty much everything here except for the Raktan's powering up the Star Forge. They did not power it up all they did was grant, Revan access to their temple. Revan did the rest himself from there.
Never said that, I said he tricked the Rakatans and Revan took it from there. He didn't use his OWN powers and harnessed the sun's energy.
And I've already told you, it takes WAY more power to destroy a star than to simply absorb and use the energy.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Never said that, I said he tricked the Rakatans and Revan took it from there. He didn't use his OWN powers and harnessed the sun's energy.And I've already told you, it takes WAY more power to destroy a star than to simply absorb and use the energy.
Ok I agree with you here. My bad.
Ok everyone ignore me. Lets not forget the fact that Nihilus destroyed a force sensitive planet ok a planet he fed upon that hes dead easily defeated i might add but i dont read much SW history but can anyone tell me when Nihilus was human or more human anyways was there anymore to his devotion to the force when he might of stared Light or dark there was once a boy in him but was it written in the internet a book comic. SOMEONE answer my question for the sake of SW
Originally posted by Illustrious
Because Revan didn't sit on his own and use his own force power to control the star. The Star Forge had been around since the Rakatan Empire, it was THEIR crowning achievement. It would effectively be saying if you take over the Death Star and blow up a few planets, you're the most powerful person ever. Revan just tricked the Rakatans to putting it back into use. It's not like he built it with the force, or then manually used it with his force powers.Naga Sadow literally CRUSHED a star and made it go supernova under his own abilities. He did not harnass ancient Rakatan technology.
What you're saying is if someone is a world class runner and can go at 15 miles an hour, but you have a car and can go at 80 miles an hour, the person with the car is "faster".
This may not be true because:
1) We don't know how fast the person in the car can run.
2) We don't know how fast the person running can drive.Naga Sadow's use of the force, in blowing up a star, is more impressive than Revan tricking the Rakatans to power the Star Forge.
That doesn't mean it didn't TAKE the two amulets to return. With Ludo and Naga, he could return on his own power. With Kun and Ulic, it took the two Sith amulets. Twist that however you want, it's still there.
Canon reference?
Where does it say Ragnos does not want to stick around or return?The same Jedi Knight that had already killed hundreds of other force users (reborn, disciples). And Ragnos likely wasn't at full power, and it wasn't HIS own body. He was limited by a body he called "weak".
And by this same evidence, when he is vanquished, the cinematic (the most canon part of the games), claims he will return. That kinda defeats your line where you say "Ragnos' spirit didn't want to be around for 5000 years."
Kun's spirit was also over 1000 years younger, DID have the entire race's energy, AND was able to exist outside of a body. Ragnos' spirit couldn't do that, he ran from his sarcophagus into Tavion, and back again.
Ugh. Stop with the wild assumptions.
You're assuming two things here:
1) Sith Magic is useless in combat. Evidece to the contrary has already been presented in my previous post.
2) Sith Magic does not exist further in the timeline simply because it wasn't explicitly mentioned.And how did Naga Sadow not beat anyone in actual combat, he did FIGHT a war, how on EARTH are you going to argue he can't beat anyone in combat?
That's like Sidious can't beat anyone in combat because he had all his underlings do it for him. This was obviously proven wrong when we LEARNED MORE ABOUT HIM (a la ROTS).
You make good points, but this isn't like the Death Star or a car. Anyone can control those. The Star Forge is almost like a living creature that has to have someone powerful enough to control it. Most everyone CANNOT control the Star Forge. And why would it need someone powerful enough to control it? It's harnessing the power of a star and can't do it without a powerful leader. I guess you want me to say, he can control an enormous space station that feeds on the Dark Side and must have a powerful leader in order to harness the power of a star.
You said Ragnos likely wasn't at full power. Canon Reference? You do it, I'll do it. I don't see any evidence leaning towards that. Next, he never called Tavion's body weak, I don't know why you said that.
Ok, but Kun's spirit was around for 4000 years able to do stuff. You guys think his power would've grown far weaker over that time. Ragnos' spirit on the other hand was NOT around for 5,000 years. He had become one with the Force, Tavion's scepter regenerated his cells bringing his spirit back to life. (Luke clearly says that's what the scepter does.) And next you claim Ragnos' spirit wasn't even around for the thousand years after his death he was merely summoned for a couple mintues. So that means Ragnos' spirit is almost like a brand new spirit, charged with Force energy that brought his spirit back to life from dozens of locations. Kun on the other hand, had 4,000 years for his spirit to weaken drastically whereas Ragnos has barely been around at all.
Now if you were a spirit and you could just fight as a spirit, or take over a Force user's body and fight, which would you do? There's nothing to say he had to take over Tavion, it was just convenient for him. His spirit fled back when the Scepter was destroyed because all the Force energy that had been used to charge him or others with was gone. Luke said when the scepter was destroyed the disciples lost their power.
Now let's review, according to your logic, Kun's spirit must've weakened greatly over 4,000 years, yet Ragnos' spirit wasn't around except to talke to Sadow and Kun. Otherwise his spirit had passed on. Then he gets charged with Force energy from dozens of locations, restoring his life and his spirit's power. He should already be WAY stronger than Kun, yet even in a Force user's body, and with a Sith Sword, he still lost to a Jedi Knight (albeit a pretty good one). Kun's spirit must've weakened greatly over 4,000 years of staying in the walls of the temple you say, yet as a spirit alone, he killed Gantoris (a not too shabby padawan) and it took 12 padawans, Luke's spirit, and Vodo's spirit COMBINING their power plus two lightsabers to destroy Kun's spirit (who had no weapon unlike Ragnos, wasn't in the body of a Force user unlike Ragnos, and had 4,000 years of weakening whereas Ragnos had very little at most.
Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said Sith magic was useless, it would help them some. I'm just saying any credible site makes sure to mention that they used Sith magic to do all this and Sadow was a Sith magician so that's why he could blow up a star, not from his power. Yet later, it is NEVER mentioned again leading me to believe it existed in the ancient times and was later lost.
Again you're putting words in my mouth, I never said he Can't beat anyone, just that he hasn't. It's hard to judge someone's power if they've never defeated anyone in combat. And next, yeah he was in the war, but he was like Bastila, using a kind of battle meditation to help his Forces out, not fighting in the front lines. Before ROTS, everyone thought Sidious was really powerful, that he would whoop Mace and Yoda. Everyone also thought Anakin was awesomely powerful and could easily defeat anyone. After the movie when we saw them fight, Sidious and Anakin were no longer treated like powerful gods.
Darth Janus: Squares do fit into Circle slots! (If they're much smaller and they don't fit perfectly into the slot. lol. Thanks for the compliment though. Nice to know the most respected guy around thinks I'm cool. ) 😎
Originally posted by Emperor Revan
You make good points, but this isn't like the Death Star or a car. Anyone can control those. The Star Forge is almost like a living creature that has to have someone powerful enough to control it. Most everyone CANNOT control the Star Forge. And why would it need someone powerful enough to control it? It's harnessing the power of a star and can't do it without a powerful leader. I guess you want me to say, he can control an enormous space station that feeds on the Dark Side and must have a powerful leader in order to harness the power of a star.
It was once built and used by a race of "average" force users. It needs some powerful dark sider to be controlled in KotoR times or well...at least it is a lifeform so it might also be able to deceide who can control it and who gets consumed. Still I don't see any reason why guys like Sadow, Ragnos, Nadd or Kun shouldn't walk into that thing and control it.
You said Ragnos likely wasn't at full power. Canon Reference? You do it, I'll do it. I don't see any evidence leaning towards that. Next, he never called Tavion's body weak, I don't know why you said that.
This is some very useless reasoning here. Actualy the point was if the ancient Sith Lords would be better than Sidious. Then the topic is changed to "can they beat Revan". Now you are again comparing ghosts to living force users while you already have admited that they aren't as powerful as ghosts as they are while living.
Of course Ragnos wasn't at full power when fighting vs Jaden Corr.
Ok, but Kun's spirit was around for 4000 years able to do stuff. You guys think his power would've grown far weaker over that time. Ragnos' spirit on the other hand was NOT around for 5,000 years. He had become one with the Force, Tavion's scepter regenerated his cells bringing his spirit back to life. (Luke clearly says that's what the scepter does.) And next you claim Ragnos' spirit wasn't even around for the thousand years after his death he was merely summoned for a couple mintues. So that means Ragnos' spirit is almost like a brand new spirit, charged with Force energy that brought his spirit back to life from dozens of locations. Kun on the other hand, had 4,000 years for his spirit to weaken drastically whereas Ragnos has barely been around at all.
a)
Kun's spirit was charged with the lifeforce of an entire race. That alone makes him pretty much "not compareable" to every other spirit.
b)
A Sith Lord becoming "one with the force" ? Erm...no.
c)
"A brand new spirit" ? We don't know how long Ragnos spirit was "around" actualy. The two amulets of Exar and Ulic didn't "summon" his spirit they just "summoned" a vision of the ancient Sith Empire and in that vision Ragnos was speaking so he could (in this time) still be around on Korriban as a spirit.
And the scepter did summon his spirit from his grave, yes. But even charged with all that power he could only be as powerful as right after his death.
Now if you were a spirit and you could just fight as a spirit, or take over a Force user's body and fight, which would you do? There's nothing to say he had to take over Tavion, it was just convenient for him. His spirit fled back when the Scepter was destroyed because all the Force energy that had been used to charge him or others with was gone. Luke said when the scepter was destroyed the disciples lost their power.
Fight as a spirit ? How should you do that ? Well...the facts look like this: Freedon Nadd (who is not as powerful as Ragnos) could instakill another (quite powerful) force user after being around as a spirit for 400 years. Now chose your possibilities:
a) Ragnos spirit was not at "full power" otherwise he would have screwed Jaden Corr without taking over Tavion
b) He was somehow forced to take over Tavions body and then limited because Tavions body didn't have the physical or mental strength of Ragnos original body (logicaly)
As he returned to his grave after Tavion was defeated possibility "a" seems to be more logical for me.
Now let's review, according to your logic, Kun's spirit must've weakened greatly over 4,000 years, yet Ragnos' spirit wasn't around except to talke to Sadow and Kun. Otherwise his spirit had passed on. Then he gets charged with Force energy from dozens of locations, restoring his life and his spirit's power. He should already be WAY stronger than Kun, yet even in a Force user's body, and with a Sith Sword, he still lost to a Jedi Knight (albeit a pretty good one).
Where did it say that Ragnos spirit was charged up with force powers ? Hell...when he returned directly after his dead, Sadow and Kressh BOTH feared him. Seeing what Nadd could do as a spirit, Ragnos might have been able to kill Sadow and Kressh directly after his death. If Jaden Corr (as a Jedi Knight) would have faced Ragnos spirit on the top of his power:
a) Ragnos would never have taken control over Tavion
b) He would have wiped the floor with Corr
Since neither a nor b happened that leaves the conclusion that this was not Ragnos spirit at his full power.
Kun's spirit must've weakened greatly over 4,000 years of staying in the walls of the temple you say, yet as a spirit alone, he killed Gantoris (a not too shabby padawan) and it took 12 padawans, Luke's spirit, and Vodo's spirit COMBINING their power plus two lightsabers to destroy Kun's spirit (who had no weapon unlike Ragnos, wasn't in the body of a Force user unlike Ragnos, and had 4,000 years of weakening whereas Ragnos had very little at most.
Kun took the lifeforce of the entire Massasi race while all other Sith Lords just died and remained as spirits. Still...after 4,000 years he was still on one level with Nadd after 400 years so you have the choice if you want to rate Exar Kun alive 10 times more powerful than Nadd alive or if you want to say that those draining of lifeforce had kept Kuns spirit in a "better" condition than all the other Sith Lords spirits were in.
Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said Sith magic was useless, it would help them some. I'm just saying any credible site makes sure to mention that they used Sith magic to do all this and Sadow was a Sith magician so that's why he could blow up a star, not from his power. Yet later, it is NEVER mentioned again leading me to believe it existed in the ancient times and was later lost.
I don't get the point here. If someone can freeze the entire Senate (Kun), blow up stars (Sadow) or do other freaky stuff with Sith magic what are you gonna do in a battle against them as a "normal" force user ? And basicaly there is no point where you can make a difference between "Sith magic" and "dark side abilities". For example the lifedrain of the Massasi Kun used was a Sith ritual (in the KotoR games that might be the "weaker" lifedrain) and "force lightning" is also called "Sith Lightning" so that things do belong to Sith magic.
And if Sith magic = dark side abilities then they are related to the actual force power of the people and an ancient Sith Lord (Sith magician) would pretty much outclass any following "dark sider".