The so called "Most Powerful Sith Lord Ever"

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It was once built and used by a race of "average" force users. It needs some powerful dark sider to be controlled in KotoR times or well...at least it is a lifeform so it might also be able to deceide who can control it and who gets consumed. Still I don't see any reason why guys like Sadow, Ragnos, Nadd or Kun shouldn't walk into that thing and control it.

This is some very useless reasoning here. Actualy the point was if the ancient Sith Lords would be better than Sidious. Then the topic is changed to "can they beat Revan". Now you are again comparing ghosts to living force users while you already have admited that they aren't as powerful as ghosts as they are while living.

Of course Ragnos wasn't at full power when fighting vs Jaden Corr.

a)
Kun's spirit was charged with the lifeforce of an entire race. That alone makes him pretty much "not compareable" to every other spirit.

b)
A Sith Lord becoming "one with the force" ? Erm...no.

c)
"A brand new spirit" ? We don't know how long Ragnos spirit was "around" actualy. The two amulets of Exar and Ulic didn't "summon" his spirit they just "summoned" a vision of the ancient Sith Empire and in that vision Ragnos was speaking so he could (in this time) still be around on Korriban as a spirit.

And the scepter did summon his spirit from his grave, yes. But even charged with all that power he could only be as powerful as right after his death.

Fight as a spirit ? How should you do that ? Well...the facts look like this: Freedon Nadd (who is not as powerful as Ragnos) could instakill another (quite powerful) force user after being around as a spirit for 400 years. Now chose your possibilities:

a) Ragnos spirit was not at "full power" otherwise he would have screwed Jaden Corr without taking over Tavion
b) He was somehow forced to take over Tavions body and then limited because Tavions body didn't have the physical or mental strength of Ragnos original body (logicaly)

As he returned to his grave after Tavion was defeated possibility "a" seems to be more logical for me.

Where did it say that Ragnos spirit was charged up with force powers ? Hell...when he returned directly after his dead, Sadow and Kressh BOTH feared him. Seeing what Nadd could do as a spirit, Ragnos might have been able to kill Sadow and Kressh directly after his death. If Jaden Corr (as a Jedi Knight) would have faced Ragnos spirit on the top of his power:

a) Ragnos would never have taken control over Tavion
b) He would have wiped the floor with Corr

Since neither a nor b happened that leaves the conclusion that this was not Ragnos spirit at his full power.

Kun took the lifeforce of the entire Massasi race while all other Sith Lords just died and remained as spirits. Still...after 4,000 years he was still on one level with Nadd after 400 years so you have the choice if you want to rate Exar Kun alive 10 times more powerful than Nadd alive or if you want to say that those draining of lifeforce had kept Kuns spirit in a "better" condition than all the other Sith Lords spirits were in.

I don't get the point here. If someone can freeze the entire Senate (Kun), blow up stars (Sadow) or do other freaky stuff with Sith magic what are you gonna do in a battle against them as a "normal" force user ? And basicaly there is no point where you can make a difference between "Sith magic" and "dark side abilities". For example the lifedrain of the Massasi Kun used was a Sith ritual (in the KotoR games that might be the "weaker" lifedrain) and "force lightning" is also called "Sith Lightning" so that things do belong to Sith magic.

And if Sith magic = dark side abilities then they are related to the actual force power of the people and an ancient Sith Lord (Sith magician) would pretty much outclass any following "dark sider".

a) Why? You keep saying spirits get far weaker over time and Kun had 4,000 years of weakening whereas Ragnos probably had (at the very most) a little over 1,000 years. Even still, he was infused with Force energy (that's what the scepter absorbs and releases, they say that many times) which not only brought his spirit back to life but would've allowed him to use the Force just like it did to the cultists. He had a lot of charging too, and if non-Force users can be infused with the Force from this scepter, his spirit which got a lot more Force energy should've been pretty powerful. Yet even with way more Force energy than needed to power a non-force user to someone who can use Lightning, he still took over Tavion's body which would naturally make him more powerful than in spirit form alone since he has a body of a Force user. But he still got defeated by Jaden. Kun on the other hand who had 4,000 years of weakening compared to Ragnos who had probably none at all but maybe 1,000 years, could kill a padawan and reguired much more to destroy his spirit alone.

b) I just meant he passed on and wasn't hanging around anymore. Like Qui-Gon did by episode IV or Obi and Yoda after Episode VI.

c) You're probably right, Ragnos' spirit was probably not at full power. Still, he got enough Force energy to power an army of non-Force users up to dark Jedi that each can use Force lightning. Kun's spirit had 4,000 years of weakening compared to Ragnos who had maybe 1,000 years at the most. Kun's spirit would naturally be far weaker than Ragnos' spirit since he had way more time to weaken, wasn't charged with enough Force energy to power an army right before his fight, didn't have a weapon, and wasn't posessing the body of a Dark Force user. Yet despite all this Kun's spirit was still quite a bit stronger.

Now how can that be? Unless either spirits don't weaken over time, or Ragnos is much weaker than people here believe, (which makes sense to me because you yourself said people would stop trying to challenge him too much after a while and without fighting he would grow weaker. He's never fought anyone besides Sith, or defeated anyone we know of for sure or even how often he fought, he manipulated his enemies into fighting each other, and he's never done anything too impressive besides ruling for a century which I don't consider all that impressive since few ever challenged the dark lords in any era, and who would try and kill a dark lord who's ruled for 50 years and had many supporters considering they practically worshipped him and gave him a grand burial. Yeah he was basically the strongest Sith for a century. Either Kun or Revan was for their century, etc. Darth Bane for his century, and more.

So Ragnos died a natural death. Big deal. If any other Sith only ruled over Korriban and a few other planets they would've died a natural death too I think. It wasn't hard for Revan (a third or less of his full power later) to wipe out everyone in the academy or even Ajunta Pall's spirit so I would be surprised if he couldn't rule over a couple planets his whole life. If Ragnos is so powerful anyway, why does no credible Star Wars site say anything about his power at all? They barely mention him and if they do it's to say nothing important.

Again, I'm not saying Ragnos is a weakling. He's surely among the most powerful Sith Lords but to say he's way more powerful than anyone else with as little knowledge as we have on him irritates me.

Emperor, I'm getting a bit tired of this game, you can play this forever. The bottum line is that you are always far to stubborn to admit your wrong. If you can't see this, I'll just give you this last memento, and hope you learn.

a) Why? You keep saying spirits get far weaker over time and Kun had 4,000 years of weakening whereas Ragnos probably had (at the very most) a little over 1,000 years.

Wild speculation. Keep this garbage off the board. "A little over 1000 years", where the hell would you pull this figure from?

Even still, he was infused with Force energy (that's what the scepter absorbs and releases, they say that many times) which not only brought his spirit back to life but would've allowed him to use the Force just like it did to the cultists. He had a lot of charging too, and if non-Force users can be infused with the Force from this scepter, his spirit which got a lot more Force energy should've been pretty powerful.

The Valley of the Jedi reconnected Kyle to the force, but he wasn't super powerful. The reborns were made from the Valley of the Jedi. Dessann basked in the Valley of the Jedi, but that didn't make him the most powerful force user ever.

You're flinging wild speculation as to how much force power he was charged with. As an ancient Sith, he should have been able to stay out in spirit form and fling lightning, destroy stuff, and maybe even instakill Jaden Korr, a la Sadow, Nadd, or Kun, but he didn't, care to take a guess why? Could it be he wasn't fully powered? Could it be AGAINST GAME DYNAMICS?

But he still got defeated by Jaden. Kun on the other hand who had 4,000 years of weakening compared to Ragnos who had probably none at all but maybe 1,000 years, could kill a padawan and reguired much more to destroy his spirit alone.

Ragnos' spirit wasn't destroyed. The scepter was later destroyed, but not his spirit.

c) You're probably right, Ragnos' spirit was probably not at full power. Still, he got enough Force energy to power an army of non-Force users up to dark Jedi that each can use Force lightning. Kun's spirit had 4,000 years of weakening compared to Ragnos who had maybe 1,000 years at the most. Kun's spirit would naturally be far weaker than Ragnos' spirit since he had way more time to weaken, wasn't charged with enough Force energy to power an army right before his fight, didn't have a weapon, and wasn't posessing the body of a Dark Force user. Yet despite all this Kun's spirit was still quite a bit stronger.

Uggh, Kun LITERALLY absorbed the power of an ENTIRE race. This has been mentioned to you at least five times and you've ignored it each time. You return with flinging assumptions that "Ragnos was fully charged", but you ignore the fact that Kun absorbed the Massassi race during his physical prime and vowed to return.

If I wanted to fling assumptions, I would say something like "Ragnos was on his death bed, he didn't want to necessarily preserve himself and become immortally powerful. Whereas Kun imprisoned his own force power at his prime and vowed to return." But I won't, because I'm not interested in wild speculation.

Now how can that be? Unless either spirits don't weaken over time, or Ragnos is much weaker than people here believe

Or, you don't listen very well and keep forgetting the whole Massassi Race thing.

If you absorb the force power of an ENTIRE race, and imprison your own force energy for later use, you better be pretty powerful.

which makes sense to me because you yourself said people would stop trying to challenge him too much after a while and without fighting he would grow weaker. He's never fought anyone besides Sith, or defeated anyone we know of for sure or even how often he fought, he manipulated his enemies into fighting each other, and he's never done anything too impressive besides ruling for a century which I don't consider all that impressive since few ever challenged the dark lords in any era

Dude, I've told you in the other thread, you DON'T know if he did, so stop ASSUMING and flinging speculatory CRAP at us that he didn't. Do you KNOW he hasn't fought anyone of notice?

If it's not impressive that he ruled for over a century, how come no one else did it? How come Sadow and Nadd all had their rule cut short? Palpatine only had ONE other Sith to worry about, and he couldn't even do it.

Did you KNOW who Revan was before KotOR? Does that mean he never existed in the SW universe?

Prior to the 19th century, we didn't have a clue what dinosaurs were, does that mean they didn't exist.

Good lord, get a clue.

So Ragnos died a natural death. Big deal. If any other Sith only ruled over Korriban and a few other planets they would've died a natural death too I think. It wasn't hard for Revan (a third or less of his full power later) to wipe out everyone in the academy or even Ajunta Pall's spirit so I would be surprised if he couldn't rule over a couple planets his whole life.

Explains how so few people did it.

Two can play this game.

All you do is devalue VALID accomplishments and then toss wild speculation. You're not debating, you're peddling fanboyism.

And where did you get 1/3 of his power? By game mechanics? Please. Let's throw more random numbers out there, let's see what happens.

Again, I'm not saying Ragnos is a weakling. He's surely among the most powerful Sith Lords but to say he's way more powerful than anyone else with as little knowledge as we have on him irritates me.

And you devaluing everything he's done and claiming HE DIDN'T do anything because you DON'T KNOW irritates me.

For the last time, there are two rules:

1) no wild speculation. I could speculate the universe was created by uncloaked Jawas, but that's just that: speculation.

2) Stop devaluing what Ragnos has done by claiming he DIDN'T do things that you DON'T KNOW about it.

You take away these two things, and your entire argument falls apart. Good job.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
a) Why? You keep saying spirits get far weaker over time and Kun had 4,000 years of weakening whereas Ragnos probably had (at the very most) a little over 1,000 years. Even still, he was infused with Force energy (that's what the scepter absorbs and releases, they say that many times) which not only brought his spirit back to life but would've allowed him to use the Force just like it did to the cultists. He had a lot of charging too, and if non-Force users can be infused with the Force from this scepter, his spirit which got a lot more Force energy should've been pretty powerful. Yet even with way more Force energy than needed to power a non-force user to someone who can use Lightning, he still took over Tavion's body which would naturally make him more powerful than in spirit form alone since he has a body of a Force user. But he still got defeated by Jaden. Kun on the other hand who had 4,000 years of weakening compared to Ragnos who had probably none at all but maybe 1,000 years, could kill a padawan and reguired much more to destroy his spirit alone.

1)
You are still comparing Kun to the spirit of other force users. We simply can't tell how much impact his lifedrain of the Massasi had on his powers as a spirit. And we can't tell how much dark side energy is stored in the ancient Sith ruins on Yavin 4. That are both wells of energy no other Sith spirit had to rely on.

2)
So Ragnos did "remain" as an individual within the force for 1,000 years ONLY because of his force powers / knowledge were people like Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon lost that ability after 10 or 15 years.

3)
Tavions body would weak him because of his natural limitations. Ragnos fought with a sith sword for a great time of his life. He had muscles to do so...something that Tavion actualy misses (physical limitations) and I don't believe Tavion could absorb Ragnos entire power in his body. The same situation can be found in the Jedi Academy books were Luke takes over Jacen to defeat some beasts with his lightsaber that Kun had send to kill his body.
And I think there is a much bigger difrence in force powers (or natural potential) between Ragnos and Tavion than there is between Luke and Jacen.

I just meant he passed on and wasn't hanging around anymore. Like Qui-Gon did by episode IV or Obi and Yoda after Episode VI.

Maybe. We can't tell how long he remained in spirit form but still even 1,000 years are quite impressive compared to Obi, Yoda or Qui-Gon.

You're probably right, Ragnos' spirit was probably not at full power. Still, he got enough Force energy to power an army of non-Force users up to dark Jedi that each can use Force lightning. Kun's spirit had 4,000 years of weakening compared to Ragnos who had maybe 1,000 years at the most. Kun's spirit would naturally be far weaker than Ragnos' spirit since he had way more time to weaken, wasn't charged with enough Force energy to power an army right before his fight, didn't have a weapon, and wasn't posessing the body of a Dark Force user. Yet despite all this Kun's spirit was still quite a bit stronger.

Still we can't say how much power Ragnos had after being charged with force powers and still we don't know what the lifedrain of the Massasi did to Kun.

But we know that Sadow feared the power of Ragnos spirit. We know that Nadd didn't at least have an "easy job" to defeat what was left of Sadow and we know that Nadd could pretty much do the same stuff as a spirit that Kun did later (without having drained an entire race) even after 400 years.

Now how can that be? Unless either spirits don't weaken over time, or Ragnos is much weaker than people here believe, (which makes sense to me because you yourself said people would stop trying to challenge him too much after a while and without fighting he would grow weaker. He's never fought anyone besides Sith, or defeated anyone we know of for sure or even how often he fought, he manipulated his enemies into fighting each other, and he's never done anything too impressive besides ruling for a century which I don't consider all that impressive since few ever challenged the dark lords in any era, and who would try and kill a dark lord who's ruled for 50 years and had many supporters considering they practically worshipped him and gave him a grand burial. Yeah he was basically the strongest Sith for a century. Either Kun or Revan was for their century, etc. Darth Bane for his century, and more.

Now again you are making conclusions from a force users spirit to the living force user. Ragnos (as well as Sadow, Nadd and Kun) had access to serveral artifacts. We know that Kun gained much power after finding the Sith amulets and all those powers based on artifacts would not be available for the spirits any longer.

So Ragnos in his own body, with all artifacts he created or simply had during his reign (meaning: at the peak of his power) would be much more powerful than his own spirit.

And think of the point you mentioned yourself: He manipulated his enemies to fight each other instead of fighting him. Errr...when you are living in an envirement where everybody wants your title and still you are able to manipulate your enemies into killing each other instead of killing you, you have to be:

a) far smarter than those people (and I doubt that)
b) far more powerful

At this point you should remember that Ragnos killed Simus and Simus was known to be the most powerful Sith magician in that time.

So Ragnos died a natural death. Big deal. If any other Sith only ruled over Korriban and a few other planets they would've died a natural death too I think. It wasn't hard for Revan (a third or less of his full power later) to wipe out everyone in the academy or even Ajunta Pall's spirit so I would be surprised if he couldn't rule over a couple planets his whole life. If Ragnos is so powerful anyway, why does no credible Star Wars site say anything about his power at all? They barely mention him and if they do it's to say nothing important.

I did tell you that stuff but I will do it again since this discussion here is going on for a while and maybe not everything mentioned is still present.

a)
The Sith Empire contained more than "a few" planets. It was wealthier than the Republic. Well...think of it. Even if you suggest that every single Sith planet is 100 or 1000 or 10000 times as wealthy as the Republic planets are there could still be 100s or 1000s of Sith worlds under the command of the Dark Lord.

b)
The people running around in the Academy weren't "true" Sith. Traya / Kreia said that for serveral times in KotoR 2. They are nowhere near the ancient Siths powers. So...as long as they don't tell us (in KotoR 3 ?) that Revan defeated the ancient Sith Empire on his own I'd doubt he would "easily" be able to keep the title of a Dark Lord until he dies in a natural way.

Again, I'm not saying Ragnos is a weakling. He's surely among the most powerful Sith Lords but to say he's way more powerful than anyone else with as little knowledge as we have on him irritates me.

Way more powerful ? I doubt that...but he would still be able to defeat every other force user we know about even though some people (including Revan) would give him a run for his money.

In Response to Illustrious' post: Yawn. Barely anything in your post worth responding to. You say I fling wild assumptions and fanboyism yet if I think Revan will lose a fight, I post it. You on the other hand said and I quote "Ragnos would nod and Revan would kill himself." No fanboyism or wild assumptions coming from the lack of knowledge we have on Ragnos here.

You haven't proved crap and if I have been convinced I'm wrong, I post it. If someone makes a good point then I post it. You on the other hand I have never seen do that. At least Nai and I simply debate without flinging wild insults and pretending we've proved something without a doubt in the world. You put words in people's mouths or seriously misunderstand them. For instance I never said people who went through the valley of the Jedi were the most powerful ever. And your quote on game dynamics I have no clue as to where that came from or why you bothered posting it. Oh and when in the last post I clearly said Ragnos' spirit probably wasn't charged to full power, you simply ignored that and pretended I said the opposite.

Now on to your reply: Ragnos' spirit wasn't alive for 4,000 years like Kun's. It was gone until Tavion brought it back to life. I think it's safe to guess Ragnos' spirit 'died' or passed on, whatever not long after he talked to Kun seings how no one ever saw him again, nor is there anything to say he was still around.

As for the "Kun absorbed the race of the massassi to preserve his spirit". Who cares? If thats what it took to keep his spirit around, great. Ragnos was charged with enough Force energy to turn quite a few non-Force users into dark Jedi capable of using Force lightning and far more powers. Kun absorbed the race of non-Force users and had 4,000 years to weaken. Ragnos' spirit was around for most likely at the most 1,000 years so he had far less time to weaken and he was charged with energy RIGHT BEFORE HIS FIGHT. He did way worse than Kun who had absorbed the life Force of a race of non-Force users 4,000 years before and (like you said) spirits weaken over time so his spirit would've lost four times as much power as Ragnos' yet Kun's spirit still did way better than Ragnos' (who was PROBABLY not fully charged, yet with as much Force energy as he got and in a Force user, I would think it would be more than Kun's spirit who continually weakened over four thousand years.)

Even though Ragnos had WAY more going for him, Kun still outclassed him IMO. (Note how I don't think I've proved things beyond any doubt like you)

Originally posted by Nai Fohl

Way more powerful ? I doubt that...but he would still be able to defeat every other force user we know about even though some people (including Revan) would give him a run for his money.

Nai Fohl: I respect and thank you for debating in a calm and reasonable manner unlike Illustrious. And I guess I didn't realize your view on Ragnos from your last quote. Illustrious thinks Ragnos would nod and Revan would kill himself, whereas you at least say that Revan and others would give Ragnos a run for his money. The whole point of me doing this was to try and convince some that Ragnos isn't a god and at the very least, some can compete with him just like I know some can compete with Revan.

So since you don't think Ragnos is invincible like so many other newbs or fanboys, I don't see much reason to continue (unless you want me to just cause it's interesting or something.) I respect your opinion and the fact that you can support it without fanboyism or illogical views. 😎

In Response to Illustrious' post: Yawn. Barely anything in your post worth responding to. You say I fling wild assumptions and fanboyism yet if I think Revan will lose a fight, I post it. You on the other hand said and I quote "Ragnos would nod and Revan would kill himself." No fanboyism or wild assumptions coming from the lack of knowledge we have on Ragnos here.

Ever heard of sarcasm? Oh right, what am I doing? of course not.

You haven't proved crap and if I have been convinced I'm wrong, I post it. If someone makes a good point then I post it. You on the other hand I have never seen do that. At least Nai and I simply debate without flinging wild insults and pretending we've proved something without a doubt in the world. You put words in people's mouths or seriously misunderstand them. For instance I never said people who went through the valley of the Jedi were the most powerful ever.

Ever heard of an analogy?

As for the "Kun absorbed the race of the massassi to preserve his spirit". Who cares? If thats what it took to keep his spirit around, great. Ragnos was charged with enough Force energy to turn quite a few non-Force users into dark Jedi capable of using Force lightning and far more powers.

When you absorb the entire massassi race, that's a lot of force power. There were more MASSASSI than Disciples of Ragnos, and Ragnos didn't ABSORB all of their power to boost his own.

You claim I misunderstand you, you like proving that you misunderstand EVERYTHING.

Oh and when in the last post I clearly said Ragnos' spirit probably wasn't charged to full power, you simply ignored that and pretended I said the opposite.

Don't be daft. I said you pulled the "1000 years" out of your arse.

Reading comprehension is your friend.

So since you don't think Ragnos is invincible like so many other newbs or fanboys, I don't see much reason to continue (unless you want me to just cause it's interesting or something.) I respect your opinion and the fact that you can support it without fanboyism or illogical views.

HAHAHA, you're a funny one. Try being a stand up comic.

You make this two page long fanboy... errr whoops "wikipedia" argument on Revan in the Ragnos vs. Revan thread. You never ONCE try to "prove Ragnos isn't a god" in the Ragnos vs. Malak or Ragnos vs. Exar Kun thread.

What's that called?

Oh right, fanboyism.

"Oh no, they are posting Revan will lose, I better post my blurb!"

Originally posted by Illustrious
Ever heard of sarcasm? Oh right, what am I doing? of course not.

Ever heard of an analogy?

When you absorb the entire massassi race, that's a lot of force power. There were more MASSASSI than Disciples of Ragnos, and Ragnos didn't ABSORB all of their power to boost his own.

You claim I misunderstand you, you like proving that you misunderstand EVERYTHING.

Don't be daft. I said you pulled the "1000 years" out of your arse.

Reading comprehension is your friend.

HAHAHA, you're a funny one. Try being a stand up comic.

You make this two page long fanboy... errr whoops "wikipedia" argument on Revan in the Ragnos vs. Revan thread. You never ONCE try to "prove Ragnos isn't a god" in the Ragnos vs. Malak or Ragnos vs. Exar Kun thread.

What's that called?

Oh right, fanboyism.

"Oh no, they are posting Revan will lose, I better post my blurb!"

It's really dumb how instead of trying to counter the point with facts or support of any kind, you simply say the person who said it is stupid and move on.

Again you say I'm a fanboy yet I have said people can compete with Revan and you said Ragnos would nod and Revan would kill himself. That's the most fanboyism I've seen from anyone. And I threw the Wikipedia quote in there just to show you that more people seem to think Revan is more powerful than Ragnos than vice versa. It was one quote in several paragraphs. Didn't like it because it's not how you think? That's too bad.

You're right I didn't post anything in the Kun vs. Ragnos or Malak vs. Ragnos thread. Why? I've barely posted anything lately save for today. I don't have a whole lot of time. But don't worry, I'll type up some stuff, copy it and paste it in every Ragnos related thread from now on just for you okay.

It's really dumb how instead of trying to counter the point with facts or support of any kind, you simply say the person who said it is stupid and move on.

What facts did you present?

Let me go over your entire argument again.

a) Why? You keep saying spirits get far weaker over time and Kun had 4,000 years of weakening whereas Ragnos probably had (at the very most) a little over 1,000 years.

This is wild speculation. Ragnos clearly had more than "1000 years" of weakening. Where you get this number is NOT FACT.

I don't need FACT to counter smelly BS.

Yet even with way more Force energy than needed to power a non-force user to someone who can use Lightning, he still took over Tavion's body which would naturally make him more powerful than in spirit form alone since he has a body of a Force user.

Again, rubbish.

Even Nai Fohl, whom you seem to like to asskiss, points out that Ragnos has inherited an ALREADY battered body and all limitations of Tavion's body and mind.

b) I just meant he passed on and wasn't hanging around anymore. Like Qui-Gon did by episode IV or Obi and Yoda after Episode VI.

Again, speculation. This is NOT fact. When did it mention Ragnos moved on? This is the same kind of logic as your "No one past Exar Kun used Sith Magic" assumption.

Kun's spirit had 4,000 years of weakening compared to Ragnos who had maybe 1,000 years at the most.

Again, wild assumption. Ragnos' spirit is over 5000 years old, yet only has 1000 years of weakening?

Kun's spirit has the entire massassi race, yet it's surprising his spirit was powerful?

He's never fought anyone besides Sith, or defeated anyone we know of for sure or even how often he fought, he manipulated his enemies into fighting each other, and he's never done anything too impressive besides ruling for a century which I don't consider all that impressive since few ever challenged the dark lords in any era, and who would try and kill a dark lord who's ruled for 50 years and had many supporters considering they practically worshipped him and gave him a grand burial.

Again, this is not fact. This is a load of your opinion.

A fact does not go along the lines of 'I don't find his accomplishments that impressive."

A fact merely lists his accomplishments, and allows everyone else to insinuate what they want.

Yeah he was basically the strongest Sith for a century. Either Kun or Revan was for their century, etc. Darth Bane for his century, and more.

Yeah, and do you realize none of those you listed were among an EMPIRE of Sith? There were thousands upon thousands of Sith during Ragnos' time, by Bane's time, there were 2.

And not to mention NONE of the names you listed ruled for the ENTIRE century.

Not to mention this ISN'T fact, Bane may not be the strongest of his century, he was just the one that survived all of the chaos, this chould just mean he's the SMARTEST, but not necessarily the strongest.

So Ragnos died a natural death. Big deal. If any other Sith only ruled over Korriban and a few other planets they would've died a natural death too I think.

Not fact. You're adding speculation that "if any other Sith only ruled over Korriban and a few other planets" blah blah.

Then how come Ragnos was the only one we know of to have done it?

How come Ragnos was one of the few Sith that wasn't killed by another Sith (which if you look at SW history, is VERY COMMON).

Again, you haven't posted fact.

It wasn't hard for Revan (a third or less of his full power later)

NOT FACT. Give me evidence where Revan was a "third" of his full power.

This is again speculation.

If Ragnos is so powerful anyway, why does no credible Star Wars site say anything about his power at all? They barely mention him and if they do it's to say nothing important.

Again, NOT FACT.

So you're saying the more powerful the guy the more air time they get?

Then guys like Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker (not NJO, MOVIE Luke), must be the strongest ever.

Again, I'm not saying Ragnos is a weakling. He's surely among the most powerful Sith Lords but to say he's way more powerful than anyone else with as little knowledge as we have on him irritates me.

This is fact. And it might be the only real, unbiased, untilted fact you have.

Again you say I'm a fanboy yet I have said people can compete with Revan and you said Ragnos would nod and Revan would kill himself.

Stop using that quote. It's called SARCASM. I already told you, you didn't listen. And then you claim I misunderstand you.

And I threw the Wikipedia quote in there just to show you that more people seem to think Revan is more powerful than Ragnos than vice versa.

And more people know about Luke Skywalker than Revan, and if asked, the typical SW fan that's not well versed in EU would probably say Luke is stronger.

What does that show? That you have the support of the uneducated masses, good job.

You're right I didn't post anything in the Kun vs. Ragnos or Malak vs. Ragnos thread. Why? I've barely posted anything lately save for today. I don't have a whole lot of time. But don't worry, I'll type up some stuff, copy it and paste it in every Ragnos related thread from now on just for you okay.

You preach that the reason you post against Ragnos is because you want to convince people he's not a god or invincible. But you make a BEELINE straight towards the Revan thread. Why, because you're a FANBOY. That's that.

And then we're back to this point:

It's really dumb how instead of trying to counter the point with facts or support of any kind, you simply say the person who said it is stupid and move on.

You post fact, and I'll respond with facts.

You post wild speculatative BS, and I'll make the sky fall on your silly head.

Ha ha hah, me have fact, from what i could see, no-one mentioned Nihilus, i would say, he "IS" the most powerful Sith Lord in the Galaxy, no other sith Lord has the power to strip the life from a planet, come on, if exar kun was still in his little Massasi Temple, Nihilus would of just torn the planet apart.
Nihilus only had one weakness, the Exile, if there was no exile, the galaxy would have been destroyed, and in the end, Nihilus would of died from starvation.
So read and weap, Nihilus could destroy a planet with the force...

No-one else can!

Illustrious: What are you blind, and stupid? You continually repeat the same things, over and over, completely ignoring the responses I’ve already made more than once.

I grow really bored from you making up things that you pretend I’ve said, and all of your meaningless hypocritical insults that you hide behind instead of supporting your opinions, like how you repeatedly call me a fanboy even after I’ve PROVEN that you’re more of a fanboy than me. Here’s a link for anyone who doesn’t believe me. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=358981&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

I doubt I’ll waste my time responding to another of your pathetic crap posts again, but before I go, I thought I’d leave you with a bit of information. Nearly every thread in this forum is based on speculation. Ragnos vs. Revan, Revan vs. Qui-Gon, or Ragnos vs. anyone except Simus. I know you don’t think so, but saying that Ragnos would nod and Revan would kill himself is (you guessed it) wild speculation.

The best two words to describe your posts: Logical fallacy.

hey, revans cool, he is doubtly more powerful than the exile, as kreia admits, You are the best that i have teached!

Illustrious: What are you blind, and stupid? You continually repeat the same things, over and over, completely ignoring the responses I’ve already made more than once.

I grow really bored from you making up things that you pretend I’ve said, and all of your meaningless hypocritical insults that you hide behind instead of supporting your opinions, like how you repeatedly call me a fanboy even after I’ve PROVEN that you’re more of a fanboy than me. Here’s a link for anyone who doesn’t believe me. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...mp;pagenumber=2

You've provided less facts that I have, you've thrown opinions and half-truths; you've preached Revan's success without once adding to the other side.

You haven't debated, you've leveled more insults than I have, and you attack an argument that NEVER EXISTED in the first place.

Yes, I think that qualifies as "fanboyism".

I doubt I’ll waste my time responding to another of your pathetic crap posts again, but before I go, I thought I’d leave you with a bit of information. Nearly every thread in this forum is based on speculation. Ragnos vs. Revan, Revan vs. Qui-Gon, or Ragnos vs. anyone except Simus. I know you don’t think so, but saying that Ragnos would nod and Revan would kill himself is (you guessed it) wild speculation.

The best two words to describe your posts: Logical fallacy.

Wow, I still find it hard to believe you STILL don't realize what "sarcasm" is.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Illustrious: What are you blind, and stupid? You continually repeat the same things, over and over, completely ignoring the responses I’ve already made more than once.

I grow really bored from you making up things that you pretend I’ve said, and all of your meaningless hypocritical insults that you hide behind instead of supporting your opinions, like how you repeatedly call me a fanboy even after I’ve PROVEN that you’re more of a fanboy than me. Here’s a link for anyone who doesn’t believe me. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=358981&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

I doubt I’ll waste my time responding to another of your pathetic crap posts again, but before I go, I thought I’d leave you with a bit of information. Nearly every thread in this forum is based on speculation. Ragnos vs. Revan, Revan vs. Qui-Gon, or Ragnos vs. anyone except Simus. I know you don’t think so, but saying that Ragnos would nod and Revan would kill himself is (you guessed it) wild speculation.

The best two words to describe your posts: Logical fallacy.

Ragnos--stronger than Simus, Sadow, Kressh. He may be more powerful than Revan, Kun, Nadd...MAY be, most likely is, but since there has never been a tale to tell of Ragnos facing off against the others, we aren't going to know.

I mean, it's f*ckin Star Wars for God's sake. Sh*t happens. What with the crazy-ass Force, lasers, Death Stars, Hypersapce travelling, lightsabres...amongst all that, I think we can piece together the fact the motherf*ckin Sith are gonna change levels of Power throughout the years, for better or for worse.

Revan better than Ragnos--Kun better than Revan--Sadow better than Kun etc... We can keep this up again and again, comparing facts that always loop back over each other.

But, fulfilling my role as a semi-Die Hard fan of Star Wars, I whole-heartedly agree with Illustrious's views. They just make plain simple sense. NAI makes good points as well.

Emperor Revan is doing exactly as stated by Illustrious, goin round in circles and repeating his own mistakes, not wanting to admit he's beaten.

And...that's all I have to say about that.

P.S. Oh and Illustrious...I hope it doesn't sound like I was ass-kissing.

You're a little closer to my ass than I'd like, but that seems accurate enough.

I'll repeat to Emperor Revan, I never without sarcasm said Ragnos would FOR SURE beat Revan, I am of the belief that while Revan is a great character, he is not quite in Ragnos' league.

One was the emperor of the Sith Empire for over a century, one took command of bits and pieces of the old Empire for a couple years. What seems more impressive?

I don't know why you choose to attack an argument that never existed (i.e. my sarcasm), or choose to reiterate petty facts that pass no verdict onto the outcome, but you do; personally I hope you have the maturity to stop.

Now, if it makes you feel better that you can beat my sarcastic "points", then by all means, keep attacking them. But if the only thing you can say is that I'm a "fanboy" because I sarcastically said "Ragnos could nod and Revan will kill himself", you have no argument -- it's that simple.

Originally posted by Lord-Nihilus
Ha ha hah, me have fact, from what i could see, no-one mentioned Nihilus, i would say, he "IS" the most powerful Sith Lord in the Galaxy, no other sith Lord has the power to strip the life from a planet, come on, if exar kun was still in his little Massasi Temple, Nihilus would of just torn the planet apart.
Nihilus only had one weakness, the Exile, if there was no exile, the galaxy would have been destroyed, and in the end, Nihilus would of died from starvation.
So read and weap, Nihilus could destroy a planet with the force...

No-one else can!

I usually don't bother with forums like this, but i had to say something! LOL

The Sith is both a religion and a species! The true Sith are not dead, (i bet) who else was Kreia talking about when she said; "True Sith"?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Darth Sidious:

Extremely powerful force user without a doubt
Good lightsaber duelist
Master manipulator

Accomplishment's:

Took control of the senate (a bunch of fat weak minded senator's!)

Ruled over a bunch of weaklings in the galaxy for only 18-20 yrs with Vader and the clones. With no competition from anyone.

Let the clones kill most of the Jedi, and loyal republic soldiers.

Personally fought and beat 4 Jedi master's.

Failure's:

Never truly conquered the galaxy (There were systems in the galaxy who were never under Imperial rule).

The ultimate goal of the Sith, is to kill all Jedi, not rule over a bunch of non-forcer users! LOL

Could not kill Mace Windu without the help of Anakin. Could not kill Yoda.
I don't care who says's what about his powers (Including GL), if he can't show us he can beat any enemy one on one, then he is not worthy of the title, greatest most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ragnos:

Tremendous Force and Physically Strength

Must have been equally as manipulative as Sidious if not more, as he had more powerful potential enemies!

Great lightsaber duelist I'm sure

Accomplishment's:

Ruled over extremely powerful sith for close to 100yrs (Who cares if he couldn't conquer the galaxy, he was powerful enough to kick every Sith a**, and no one but the Jedi can beat a Sith)

Failures:

None! He did everything he wanted to, and died a very powerful Dark Lord!
----------------------------------------------------------
Darth Revan:

Its possible he is a Sitharri (The perfect Sith who is not influenced by the dark or light side! Even Sids and Ragnos was influenced by Dark Side!) He made his own choices! Which probably means he has the highest mediclorian count (like Anakin) of any Sith! To be able to go against the will of the force! (Thats why Kreia likes him so much!)

Legendary in his time for his war planning and tactics

Extremely powerful in the force both offensive (Most if not all dark side powers) and defensive powers (Most if not all light side powers). Even as the Dark Lord he was like Kreia; (Must have been, if he can rule over powerful Sith like Malak, Nilhus, Sion, Kreia and any other Sith Lord in a time when Sith and Jedi were in constant battles! Tougher than the Sith of Ragnos' time, as Exar Kun was in Revan's time. Well 20yrs difference)

Probably the best lightsaber duelist, as he has shown he can fight both single and double bladed! He also has Tulak Hords holocron.

Extremely powerful physically, he proved this by single handled taking on creatures that were immune to the force!

Not a bad swoop racer either

Built an assassin droid

Accomplishments:

Learned almost everything the Jedi could teach him! (Kreia explains this to the Exile!)
Learned everything Kreia knows about the dark side! and probably alot more in the unknown regions!
Took on the Mandalorian's in a battle which was almost over, and turned it around to win the war.
Killed the Mandalorian Leader!
Killed Malak!
Killed the greatest Bounty Hunter in that era
Killed Bandon! (I know, Bandon was a wimp!)
Took on the Republic, would have crushed them in the end if only he chose to be the Dark Lord again! The Republic would have lost 80% of their fleet, so who's going to stop him!?

Failure's:

Malak's attack on him. But it wasn't enough to kill him! LOL
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In my opinion the most powerful Sith is someone who has complete control of themselves and their servants! And is able to do whatever the f**k they want! (They don't have to conquer if they don't want to!) LOL WHO'S GOING TO STOP THEM!!!? A Dark Lord doesn't give a poo what others think, so why would people like Revan care if Ragnos or any other ancient Dark Lord doesn't crown him as the new Dark Lord! Who said the Sith Empire was a democracy!? Don't tell me the old Sith Lords vote on who they want as the new Dark Lord!? LMAO!!

Only Revan and Ragnos have shown that they can do whatever the f**king they want!! So its one of them that is the greatest, and most powerful Dark Lord Of The Sith!

I say Revan! He has what is required!! Also he is not dead YET!!

Nilhus was NOTHING! Exactly what his name mean's LOL! He was only a threat to low-mid powered Sith, and Jedi! Exile and Kreia are above that class! Kreia uses the same technique on the jedi master's! But she actually has more control! LOL

Revan knew about Nilhus, but couldn't be bothered to do anything about it! I'm sure he knew how to stop him easily! If Kreia knows alot about Nilhus' power, then i'm 100% sure Revan does. The very fact that he thought the True Sith were more of a threat to the Republic, proves that Nilhus was a child compared to Revan and the True Sith!

I'm sure he knows how to exploit Nilhus' weakness! Probably knows that technique without being a force wound!(LOL) He could probably cut himself off from the force and kick Nilhus' butt!!

LOL! I can't believe people keep saying Revan was a game character! Yeah that is TRUE!! no one is denying that! LOL! But to say he didn't beat tonnes of Sith in the Star Forge and Sith Academy is STUPID! Tell me this, if someone walks into the Pentagon, lands on to an air craft carrier, or finds a way into the white! Will they find it completely empty! in times of war!!!!?

Of course not!! He really did kill hundreds if not thousands of Sith! with only the Ebon Hawks crew to help him! If thats not power, then what is?

Before anybody even asks! (i doubt it, no one has posted since 2005 LOL, but this is my last post, and i have to get everything down today!!)

Yeah i am a fan of Darth Revan! And why not? Revan has proved that he's best!! I am NOT being biased! Its simple fact!

Revan has proved that he's best!!

That's a negative ghostrider. There a people here that can give you a wall of quotes from sources saying that Sidious was the best Sith that ever existed. I don't think there is even one quote saying the same of Revan.