Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Definately. Hm. Back to regarding Revan's crowning... Nai, you are including only the Sith lords we know. The Sith Empire is, last time I checked, 100,000 years old. In reference to what, I don't quite remember at this point. But the point is the line of Sith lords (Quoted from the Star Wars Encyclopedia as being "unbroken until the time of Sadow"😉 must have been long. Any resting Sith lord with enough clout could recognize Revan as a successor. And since the Sith have a habit of building tombs for their greatest, to preserve their spirit, it's very likely that at least a fraction of those sith lords still exist.
The Sith Empire (or at least the title of the Dark Lord of the Sith) was set up 24,400 years BBY.
Think of the following point. The ability to remain as a spirit within the force is nothing "usual" at all. And it has nothing to do with the tombs.
The spirits of Kressh (who had a tomb on Dantooine), Tulak Hord (Korriban) and Naga Sadow never reappeared. And people like Nadd, Ajunta Pall or Ragnos bound their spirits on certain artifacts. Nadd did, Ajunta did with his sword, Ragnos probably did so with his scepter and Kun drained the Massasi to remain as a spirit on Yavin 4.
For the fraction: From 1000 generations of Jedi there were only 4 (!) able to remain as spirit in the force: Obi-Wan (for 10 years), Yoda (unknown), Qui-Gon (unknown) and Anakin (still around in NJO times). It's pretty unlikely that there would be spirits of Dark Lords on Korriban left except the ones we know (Rangos; Pall) and since the Sith Empire moved his capital from Korriban to Ziost there would be no other place to find Sith spirits.
And it's very unlikely that Revan travelled to the "real" Sith territory before the KotoR events since he never used the resources of the Sith Empire against the Republic.
Last but not least: The title of the Dark Lord was always passed from the "former" generation to the next somehow. Sadow recieved his title from Ragnos, Nadd destroyed Sadow (thereby becoming Dark Lord), and it was Kun who destroyed Nadds spirit (although Ragnos declared him to be the Dark Lord).
Now...if Revan wanted that title "officialy" the only "logical" way would be to visit Yavin 4 and destroy Kun what he did not do. So...in my personal oppinion Kun is the last "real" Dark Lord of the Sith.
The rest is pretty much up to speculation. There could have been a "official" Dark Lord on Ziost during Revans times who he could fight to get that title but: Why should there be one ? There is only one Dark Lord at a time and that means: If there was a Dark Lord on Ziost, Exar and Nadd could never have been Dark Lords.
Not necessarily, they were both declared kings by something far more powerful then what would be on Ziost. Their reign should not be disputed by anybody in another place.
But Exar Kun could have declared Revan as the Dark Lord, Maybe Ragnos did again. He did not necessarily have to fight for his title, and we don't know if there are any other spirits or not. I'm pretty sure we will find out about some soon enough.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
You should better read postings before giving some comment, idiot. You should slap yourself for not doing so.And by the way: Ask some people if Revan is the strongest Sith Lord ever. If they actualy posess a little bit of knowledge they will tell you that Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd, Hord (for sure) and Exar Kun (maybe) will kill Revan in a duel.
a) He [b]feared
Yoda.
b) He won because he was lucky.
c) The best force user that ever lived ? Muhaha... NJO Luke would destroy him and any of the ancient Sith Lords would do that too. [/B]
You should slap yourself thinking we're dumb if we don't think Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd, Hord, and Kun would kill Revan in a duel. Kun is the only one with a good argument and Ragnos sort of has one. As for the others, give me a break. Kreia says Hord was the best duelist in a time of great duelists and he's suddenly all powerful and can't be beat? Yeah right. She also says Revan is power, and the heart of the Force which would naturally be undefeatable so why do you think Hord would kill him just because Kreia gave him a compliment?
Sadow could blow up stars with Sith magic, but note that he didn't ever defeat anyone in a one-on-one fight, and was constantly avoiding them. Kyp Durron pulled the Sun Crusher out of the core of Yavin, very similar to the core of a star. Revan can control the power of a star, Luke can manipulate a black hole. One nice power that seems impressive hardly makes him a powerful fighter.
Nadd didn't do anything too important except got killed by a group of Jedi.
Ragnos ruled for a century over the Sith on a couple of planets. Kreia says: "He manipulated his enemies into fighting each other" so no, he wasn't constantly fighting them like you seem to think, and in everything I've heard about Ragnos from reliable sites, not one has even come close to saying he was incredibly powerful, all the other sith hated him for being a half-breed, or anything of the sort. Look at all the other Sith, no one ever dares to challenge the dark lord in combat. They all feared Revan, Malak, Palpatine, Vader, etc. wihout question. Of course they would do the same thing here. Who would want to fight the dark lord that has ruled for decades? No one would want to do that. Next, all the evidence seems to support that the Sith liked Ragnos, they gave him a huge burial, and even thought like him until Sadow turned them around.
Ragnos hasn't even defeated anyone we know to be really strong either. All evidence goes to show that his spirit is weaker than Kun's spirit too, which would reflect on their old selves too. And if Ragnos is so powerful and the Sith empire was so mighty then why was he so afraid to face the Republic? Revan basically conquered it starting with few Jedi and mostly soldiers against an army that had twice the forces he had and against battle meditation (yes he got the Star Forge but that didn't really help a lot until much later.) So why did Ragnos fear it so much? He's either an idiot or too weak. He also prophecized something about Kun restoring the Sith or something but that didn't happen either now did it?
Now Kun actually has a worthy argument and we know much more about him to decide who would be stronger.
Now comparing them to Darth Revan who was said by the Jedi that he was always powerful. Even as a padawan, his teachers were sure that he would become a champion of the Force. His master Kreia said "Revan was power. Staring at him was like staring into the heart of the Force.” Revan had a lust for knowledge, seeking out every piece of information he could about the Jedi. Revan is an extremely quick learner, doing in weeks what many cannot do in years. Master Zhar even goes as far as saying his potential is unlimited.
Revan has the highest level of Battle precog, has the Will power to resist the Dark side of an entire planet that no one else (not even Kreia) could resist, controlled a star, is perhaps the greatest tactician ever, has enormously high potential, plunders all the knowledge he could from the Jedi temples, he plundered tombs, relics, artifacts, and knowledge from a planet sized Sith storehouse of knowledge, learned dozens of ways to kill or turn Jedi/Sith, fights for 6 years straight as the leader of one of the main forces in the two different wars against powerful opponents, killing Mandalore and the strongest Echani, and was considered by Kreia (Revan's mentor who could kill three Jedi council members at the same time with one use of the Force) to be the heart of the Force.
Then he loses all that power and becomes a Jedi again, he plunders Korriban, including the tombs of four very powerful dark lords, gaining their artifacts, learning from Tulak's holocron, killing two tarentateks at the same time by himself when just one could easily kill a Jedi, he killed everyone in a Sith academy that he started, he killed the best bounty hunter at that time, a Sith Lord, he killed hundreds of dark Jedi and assassin droids, defeated and killed his apprentice Darth Malak at least twice in a row, and became even stronger than he was during his first reign (first paragraph).
Then he recovers all his memories and knowledge from Malachor V, the Jedi temples, etc. increasing his power greatly from the second paragraph, before he goes to fight the ancient Sith empire single handedly.
Now I'm not trying to be mean or say that Revan is undoubtedly stronger than all of these guys, we mostly don't know enough about them to draw reasonable conclusions. It would be unfair to both to say that either of these pairs is stronger. I'm saying it's foolish to think all of those guys could beat all other Sith because the came from an earlier time period or whatever. Bandon is considered stronger than Sidious and Bandon was a dark lord 4,000 years before Sidious was. Sion is considered stronger either and he even learned under Darth Traya. All of those Sith are NOT necessarily stronger than Revan or most others and saying people have little knowledge for believing that Revan could beat some of those guys is IMO pure fanboyism.
(Again Nai Fohl, I like and respect you, I just didn't like you passing off those Sith to be more powerful than Revan and anyone who thinks otherwise is a retard. I'm just trying to say there's nothing to say Revan can't compete with these guys. Peace.) 🙂
Sadly... (no offense) I agree with Emp. Revan
Naga, Hord, and Ragnos, were great TRUE Sith Lords..
That is what my Arguement ALWAYS is... See... there is A Difference. Sith, is a race of people.
There are Dark Jedi who study the ways of the Sith.. Like Kun and Revan and soo on.. My Agrueement is Revan was not Sith.. He was a Dark Jedi who study Sith ways.. Am I right?
That's the only point I am trying to get across...
Other than that.. Revan was badass.
Originally posted by Talos Naga
Ok.. The Academy on Korriban... Your telling me they are all sith? lol.. not any of them have an ounce of Sith blood on them..Please tell me someone gets what I am saying..
Sith is a race?
Not A way you call people who run around with Red Lightsabers.
wrong...
Sith used to be a race, then it became a religion. Sith is a religion everybody can be a Sith.
Originally posted by Emperor Revan
You should slap yourself thinking we're dumb if we don't think Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd, Hord, and Kun would kill Revan in a duel. Kun is the only one with a good argument and Ragnos sort of has one. As for the others, give me a break. Kreia says Hord was the best duelist in a time of great duelists and he's suddenly all powerful and can't be beat? Yeah right. She also says Revan is power, and the heart of the Force which would naturally be undefeatable so why do you think Hord would kill him just because Kreia gave him a compliment?
First off: I don't think anybody who don't thinks that the ancient Sith Lords can defeat revan is dumb. A lack of information is not indicating a lack of intelligence.
Sadow could blow up stars with Sith magic, but note that he didn't ever defeat anyone in a one-on-one fight, and was constantly avoiding them. Kyp Durron pulled the Sun Crusher out of the core of Yavin, very similar to the core of a star. Revan can control the power of a star, Luke can manipulate a black hole. One nice power that seems impressive hardly makes him a powerful fighter.
Sadow was the most powerful member of the Sith priesterhood (Dark Side practioners / Sith magicians) in his time so he is a very powerful force user without any question. For his fighting abilities: Well...from his appearance in the comics you can say that he is physically strong (just take a look at his muscles and at the sword he wields) and we know that he - as a spirit - was nearly powerful enough to kill Freedon Nadd. And to keep that in mind: Exar Kun needed an artifact to destroy Nadds spirit.
That leaves the conclusion that Nadd has to be more powerful than Kun (even as a spirit) and Sadow was even more powerful. So if you think that Exar might be able to take Revan, Sadow and Nadd are for sure.
Nadd didn't do anything too important except got killed by a group of Jedi.
Well...he conquered Onderon and Dxun very much on his own and he was able to kill people (including Jedi) armed with a short lightsaber and a goddamn blaster. Even as a spirit he was able to kill King Ommin easily who was powerful enough to defeat Arca Jeth.
For Ragnos:
Yes, he manipulated his enemies into fighting each other. Is that the only thing you kept in mind from KotoR ? Kreia also said that he posessed unbelieveable strength physically and also with the force and his death nearly led to a civil war because of the vacuum he left. And she also gave the information that such civil wars or just duels to compare strength were normal in that days of the Sith Empire.
And that means Ragnos had to go through civil wars as well as through duels to archive his title as a dark lord. You can argue that people simply feared him in later times because he reigned for such a long time - but with the rules of the Sith Empire and the fact that they realy challenged each other in a normal situation just to see who is stronger, it's very questionable that Ragnos was never challenged. And still he had to fight for his title.
Ragnos feared the Republic because the Dark Jedi that started the Sith Empire were defeated by the Jedi. He basicaly thought the Jedi would still be more powerful than the Sith and didn't want to risk the Sith Empire. That was neither weakness nor stupidity. It was a lack of information basicaly. And think of the following point: He was absolutely right. Any Sith Lord that tried to conquer the galaxy failed in that task because of the Jedi.
Sadow did, Kun did, Revan did and Palpatine (at the end) did as well.
Now for that prophecy: Kun failed because of Ulics betrayal and I think if people like Revan or Yoda can't just see into the future as they like why should Ragnos be able to do so ?
For Tulak Hord:
And again it seems that people didn't listen to the things said in KotoR. Kreia is saying that any of the ancient Sith Lords would make people in KotoR times look like children fighting each other with toys when it comes to a duel (so that also counts for Ragnos and Sadow). Tulak Hord was the greatest duelist among those people. We know, that Revan learned his fighting style from Tulak Hords holocron. Now think about it: Who would be more powerful in a lightsaber duel. The creator of a form who had practiced it for his entire life or somebody who learned the same form from a holocron practicing it for some years.
Now just think of the following point:
We are talking about people (exception Kun and Nadd) that grew up in a enviroment were they constantly had to fight other force users just to rise through the rangs. So everyone of them probably fought more powerful people than Revan did before claiming the title of a Dark Lord (combat skill) and they all would have had access to greater knowledge or at least the same amount than Revan had access to but more time to study it (force knowledge).
So I'm not saying they will beat Revan because they come from a earlier time period. I think they will beat him because of the circumstances they grew up and lived in. It's like taking somebody from Europe or the USA who trained Shaolin Kung-Fu to a "master" status and throw him into a fight with a Shaolin Monk. Who will win ? I'd bet the monk because what the Shaolin Master trained is the very "essence" of the Shaolin Monks life.
And that's my view on the Sith Lords: What other people trained just to become more powerful (Sith magic) is their very basical way of living. Thereby I have to say that any of the "real" Sith Lords can take any of the "dark siders" that followed because the people that followed weren't trained for their entire life in the ways of the Sith and they didn't experience the situation of being constantly challenged for "their" place in a society of force users.
I think that you are forgeting the fact that all of those anciet sith lords before revan died and have no more things that they can do that are impressive. Revan never died yet. (makeing up numbers) lets say that babe bruth did 1000 home runs in proffesinal baseball. lets say a baseball player that is still alive did 900 home runs. this base ball player can still do more home runs, but can also be perminantly injured and not do any more. so no body should slap no body and we should all hug each other and kiss each other