Spider-Man vs. Firelord - the rematch

Originally posted by demigawd
What factors? Warlock blasted Doom, had no effect, Doom turned and blasted Warlock. Everybody is an awe. Spider-Man punches Warlock, knocks him clean out and everybody screams "PIS!". No factors created by Doom whatsoever. So what's the difference?

Originally posted by long pig
Doom is expected to be capable do such thing, Spiderman isn't.

Thanks long pig.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's a good example. That's not the only time strange has been knocked clean out by something before. Not the only time he's been ambushed, or injured. In fact, in Defenders #1 that just came out this week, he was ambushed while sleeping and choked until he punched his way out. Again, no shields. So which is truly plot device - the fact that he doesn't have his shields up and gets tagged or the fact that he does and doesn't get tagged? How is that determination made?

Well first off the fact that he's sleeping in itself is a factor. And secondly it's simple, When a character does something time and time and time again, (Like Namor going full on with Superheavyweights) and then all of sudden is incapable for one issue to take damage far less severe (like Namor being knocked out by spiderman) it's a plot device.

The Defenders new series really isn't.....trustworthy for such small details, it's more just for fun.
Wong with intent to harm would be taken out as soon as nightmare entered his body. The mansion is filled with those kinds of protection spells.

But yeah, I get your point.
Bad writing?

PIS Champs
- Spidey
- Batman
- (list yours here)

Originally posted by demigawd
Is there really? When Hulk punched and punched on Superman and Superman didn't move, and Hulk eventually wore himself out...was that generally accepted? Or even when Superman beat Thor in JLA/Avengers. Was that really "generally accepted"? People still go to war over that on boards today, with some people calling that ultimate "PIS" and boycotting Busiek. And it's more than delusional fanboys. It's anybody who believes that Superman's vulnerability to magic should supercede any other factors in a fight between the two.

Well next time someone brings that crap up you just apologize to those fanboys and let them know that you can't help that it happened. Besides you really did take me out of context there. The part that was generally accepted was what took place. You can argue what should happen all day long like some jackasses do, or you can accept what happened because it happens to be the truth. Just like it's the truth that many circumstances went into Spiderman's fight.

True !!

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Thanks long pig.

Well first off the fact that he's sleeping in itself is a factor. And secondly it's simple, When a character does something time and time and time again, (Like Namor going full on with Superheavyweights) and then all of sudden is incapable for one issue to take damage far less severe (like Namor being knocked out by spiderman) it's a plot device.

Not a factor - the shields Long Pig is referring to are auto-shields. They're active even when Strange is asleep. It's what protects Strange from sneak attacks, like snipers or muggers or speed blitzers or anything else. If his shields were on and truly "automatic", it would have prevented Strange from being choked, even though he was asleep. So...is that bad writing? Is every time Strange is hurt bad writing, then? I think you touched upon something important when you said

When a character does something time and time and time again, (Like Namor going full on with Superheavyweights) and then all of sudden is incapable for one issue to take damage far less severe (like Namor being knocked out by spiderman) it's a plot device.

So then can it be said that if Strange continues to get ambushed, or if we count and find that he's been caught without his shield more often than it protecting him from surprise attack that, in fact, him having his auto shield is PIS? If we were to count the number of times he's been successfully ambushed and injured vs. the number of times he's been unsuccessfully ambushed because of his shield and the former is higher...will Long Pig have to dismiss Strange's auto-shield from now on when using Strange in debates, because it's PIS?

And look at that list of Spider-Man's victories. Why doesn't that count, based on sheer volume, as qualifying him as being able to beat these guys legitimately. That's an extensive enough list, isn't it?

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Well next time someone brings that crap up you just apologize to those fanboys and let them know that you can't help that it happened. Besides you really did take me out of context there. The part that was generally accepted was what took place. You can argue what should happen all day long like some jackasses do, or you can accept what happened because it happens to be the truth. Just like it's the truth that many circumstances went into Spiderman's fight.

ok, so you're saying that "generally accepted" means what DID happen? ok, then what DID happen was that Spider-Man beat Juggernaut by trapping him in cement. You yourself said that you disregard that. Generally accepted or no?

Originally posted by demigawd
Not a factor - the shields Long Pig is referring to are auto-shields. They're active even when Strange is asleep. It's what protects Strange from sneak attacks, like snipers or muggers or speed blitzers or anything else. If his shields were on and truly "automatic", it would have prevented Strange from being choked, even though he was asleep. So...is that bad writing? Is every time Strange is hurt bad writing, then? I think you touched upon something important when you said

Yes, everytime Strange is hurt it's bad writing, unless it happens a few more times, then It's just a known fact that he sometimes lets his guard down.

Originally posted by demigawd
So then can it be said that if Strange continues to get ambushed, or if we count and find that he's been caught without his shield more often than it protecting him from surprise attack that, in fact, him having his auto shield is PIS? If we were to count the number of times he's been successfully ambushed and injured vs. the number of times he's been unsuccessfully ambushed because of his shield and the former is higher...will Long Pig have to dismiss Strange's auto-shield from now on when using Strange in debates, because it's PIS?

Having an autoshield isn't PIS, He just forgets to put it up, maybe he has to renew the spell ever so often, maybe it takes concentration. It's poor writing, but it can infact change what a character can and can't do. In a non-ambush situation, there is no danger for Long Pig in using Stranges auto-shields for his debate.

Because common sense dictates just as much as what has actually happend.
We all know books are made to sell, and sometimes they have to pull something out-landish when sales drop. So, we ignore the silly stuff and use the more level headed majority to make a case.

Originally posted by demigawd
ok, so you're saying that "generally accepted" means what DID happen? ok, then what DID happen was that Spider-Man beat Juggernaut by trapping him in cement. You yourself said that you disregard that. Generally accepted or no?

That would be the case if say, Juggernaut had shown that he couldn't break out of such entrapments many times before.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Yes, everytime Strange is hurt it's bad writing, unless it happens a few more times, then It's just a known fact that he sometimes lets his guard down.

Having an autoshield isn't PIS, He just forgets to put it up, maybe he has to renew the spell ever so often, maybe it takes concentration. It's poor writing, but it can infact change what a character can and can't do. In a non-ambush situation, there is no danger for Long Pig in using Stranges auto-shields for his debate.

True, but if it's truly an auto-shield, then there's no such thing as "forgetting" to put it up unless it's not really an auto-shield, right?

The whole "having to renew" thing and the other guesses are conjecture if it's never been stated in the comic. Isn't that justifying PIS?

Something's gotta give, right? Either it's not really an auto-shield or every single instance of him not being protected is PIS. And if I can name more times where he's not been protected than Long Pig can of him being protected, then doesn't it mean that it's more likely that the auto-shield is bad writing or PIS than the other way around?

Originally posted by long pig
Because common sense dictates just as much as what has actually happend.
We all know books are made to sell, and sometimes they have to pull something out-landish when sales drop. So, we ignore the silly stuff and use the more level headed majority to make a case.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
That would be the case if say, Juggernaut had shown that he couldn't break out of such entrapments many times before.

Fair point. And likewise, Spider-Man has beaten Herald-level opponents many times before. Generally accepted?

Because Strange has mentioned having auto shields up and there are more times shown that he does have them than times shown that he doesn't.
And usually the times showing him not having them is in another characters book, or when a plot can't move forward without it.

Flash is inconsistant as hell, you know this.

Just say the words "Spiderman can beat Silver Surfer" outloud....doesn't sound right at all, does it?

It really is as easy as common sense.

Originally posted by demigawd
True, but if it's truly an auto-shield, then there's no such thing as "forgetting" to put it up unless it's not really an auto-shield, right?

The whole "having to renew" thing and the other guesses are conjecture if it's never been stated in the comic. Isn't that justifying PIS?

Something's gotta give, right? Either it's not really an auto-shield or every single instance of him not being protected is PIS. And if I can name more times where he's not been protected than Long Pig can of him being protected, then doesn't it mean that it's more likely that the auto-shield is bad writing or PIS than the other way around?

The problem lies in that most often the autoshields are intact. So until someone writes it differently or it keep happening then it's an error on the writers part.

Originally posted by demigawd
But what in common sense would dictate that Dr. Strange has auto-shields when there are dozens of situations where he's been knocked out by failure to be protected? What in common sense would dictate that Flash cannot move at lightspeed instantly when he's evacuated an entire city of millions in less than a second? What in common sense would dictate that Spider-Man cannot beat Firelord when he beat Silver Surfer? What in common sense would dictate that Spider-Man can beat Silver Surfer when he cannot beat Doctor Octopus? Is it really as easy as common sense? Where is the battle line drawn?

Under what conditions, with what factors, and what determined the victory? Cause Batman beat Superman 3 times and Lobo (see it sounds funny when you leave out all the reason why.)

Are there really more times of Strange being protected by it than not? Don't know Strange well enough to answer, but I'd like if someone who knew Strange well could challenge that point. But from what I've read of him, in Defenders, in FF, in Avengers, and in X-men (which, like you said, aren't his own books), he's been ambushed and I've never seen it mentioned, so I'm wondering about that.

Flash is inconsistent, yes. But isn't Spider-Man inconsistent too? I it's "generally accepted" that just about anything Flash does or doesn't do is fair because he's so all over the place. Doesn't that sound accurate of Spider-Man too?

When I say the words, "Doom can beat Warlock" or "Wolverine can beat Hulk"...that doesn't sound right either.

But a lot of fans swear by it. And not just fanboys. A LOT of fans.

Originally posted by demigawd
Fair point. And likewise, Spider-Man has beaten Herald-level opponents many times before. Generally accepted?

That would be generally accepted, If say, those characters you mentioned hadn't been killing 100's of guys tougher than Spiderman at the same time on a regular basis.

Everytime Strange is fighting someone his shields are up, he doesn't say "let me caste a shield before I fight you!", they just tend to be there.

Of course there are errors and such, but the majority his shields are up with seemingly no concious effort.

Flash is hella inconsistant, and Spiderman is too. The difference is Flash has a viable REASON or an EXCUSE to be able to do the insane things he does, Spiderman doesn't.

Doom can't beat Warlock, Wolverine can't beat Hulk....not the majority, and not with both having equal footing. Not happening.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
The problem lies in that most often the autoshields are intact. So until someone writes it differently or it keep happening then it's an error on the writers part.

I've never collected Strange's solo series, but in every appearance he's made, he's been ambushed. And given that he doesn't have a series, all of his appearances over the past several years have been guest spots. I've never seen the auto-shield. He's been ambushed by Wong, Doom, surprised by Xavier, some low-level mage in an X-men guest spot. Long Pig mentioned Spider-Man doing it, too. All errors? ALL of them?

Under what conditions, with what factors, and what determined the victory? Cause Batman beat Superman 3 times and Lobo (see it sounds funny when you leave out all the reason why.)

True, but Spider-Man didn't have any help against firelord. He used the environment and psychology, that's it.

Originally posted by demigawd
Are there really more times of Strange being protected by it than not? Don't know Strange well enough to answer, but I'd like if someone who knew Strange well could challenge that point. But from what I've read of him, in Defenders, in FF, in Avengers, and in X-men (which, like you said, aren't his own books), he's been ambushed and I've never seen it mentioned, so I'm wondering about that.

As far as I know yes, I've never even heard of him being ambushed before.

Originally posted by demigawd
Flash is inconsistent, yes. But isn't Spider-Man inconsistent too? I it's "generally accepted" that just about anything Flash does or doesn't do is fair because he's so all over the place. Doesn't that sound accurate of Spider-Man too?

Flash is inconsistent but at least they try to give an explanation, and since the science is over the head of the average reader they get away with it. On the other hand you have a Class 100 character who can't break cement.

Originally posted by demigawd
When I say the words, "Doom can beat Warlock" or "Wolverine can beat Hulk"...that doesn't sound right either.

But a lot of fans swear by it. And not just fanboys. A LOT of fans.

But Doom has done it, without any circumstance, so it must be true. Is it likely that it happens again, that I don't know.

Originally posted by demigawd
I've never collected Strange's solo series, but in every appearance he's made, he's been ambushed. And given that he doesn't have a series, all of his appearances over the past several years have been guest spots. I've never seen the auto-shield. He's been ambushed by Wong, Doom, surprised by Xavier, some low-level mage in an X-men guest spot. Long Pig mentioned Spider-Man doing it, too. All errors? ALL of them?

Doom ambushing Strange is reasonable (especially if you're talking about the FF story I think you're talking about.) Xavier? Shields don't necessarily block all types of attack. A low level mage? Every dog has his day. A pot to the head? Definitley an error.

Originally posted by demigawd
True, but Spider-Man didn't have any help against firelord. He used the environment and psychology, that's it.

Oh so you're saying that Spiderman's opponents holding back, dropping building on people, and utulizing huge explosions is a regular part of Spidey's tactics.