I understand that, I just remember reading your posts.
Noone logical would agree on those victories.
I don't think spiderman is "untouchable" going all out, but he can slaughter many peak humans.
They do need to get rid of guys like Ock and Shocker, and give him villans that can hang with him.
Spiderman does get his ass handed regularly though.
Originally posted by demigawd
I find that fights rarely go that way, even in real life. That's why boxers have excuses all the time, lol. Should we dismiss a Spider-Man victory over the Hulk because Spider-Man threw the Hulk into a gamma generator that turned Hulk back into Banner? If that's the case, then shouldn't we also dismiss a Hulk victory over Gladiator because the Hulk kicked Gladiator into a nuclear reactor, which is Gladiator's weakness?You ain't alone. But in Secret Wars, when Spider-Man broke Jean's TK hold on him...it happened, right? No outside tricks or anything. Acceptable? How's it different from the above Doom example
I brought up Slade for a reason. There are many (myself included) who don't believe Slade SHOULD keep up with light-speeders, even if he could see them with his special vision, because as fast as Slade is, he's still nowhere CLOSE to lightspeed. But he beat them...more than once. PIS, despite there being a track record?
Well I read the rest of this thread and noticed that a certain someone had dumbed down the conversation, so I decided to come back to this post.
Should we dismiss a Spiderman victory over Hulk because there was a gamma generator nearby? Do you really have to ask that question. Absolutley we should. Would you dismiss a Superman loss that happened at a kryptonite meteor landing sight? Would we dismiss an Aquaman fight that happened in the Sahara (if he even still has that weakness)? Isn't that a little too conveniant to you? Do you see where the term "plot induced" comes from. The writers can't come up with a better story and can't find a way around something so all of a sudden we're playing Bad Fur Day and we can expect to just waltz up to the "B" and get exactly the item we need?
That example is acceptable to the best of my knowledge.
Slade is many times faster than a human, and his reflexes are faster still. Not PIS by any means.
Originally posted by demigawd
Really? Strange gets ambushed and auto-shielded that often?Portrayal often leads to results. That was my point. According to some posters here, writers portray Flash as needing to accelerate. I've read differently. Obviously these portrayed will influence the results. The former portrayal would cause Flash to credibly lose to Slade the way he did in Identity Crisis. The latter would make it impossible.
Last I checked, you can't swim in wet cement. But I guess that depends on where/when/how you hit the bottom, which I'd imagine there would have to be at some point.
Likewise, Warlock has taken a blast from Galactus, but Doom puts him down in one shot? Is the PIS Warlock surviving the blast from Galactus or Doom putting Warlock down in one shot? Or does Doom hit as hard as Galactus? Or is Galactus that weak?
In the case of Green Arrow, he exploited a specific weakness, which is what Spider-Man did to beat Hulk.
For all of them? Damn. That's a lot. I'm sure as the discussion expands more people will talk about specifics. Otherwise, I'll write when I wake up.
I'd say so.
No I have to disagree with you on this point. A killed B, those are results. A killed B badly, A killed B barely, that is all portrayal.
The way you talk about cement, you make it sound like Juggernaut is a human. Wasn't he like shin high in cement?
Puts him down? To what degree? Is it possible that Doom hit Warlock with something he was weaker against than the power cosmic (which I assume galactus was using.
Again, walk on top of the "B" and push "B" just ask Birdie, it's context sensitive.
"Thank you, don't mind if I do!"-Birdie
Originally posted by demigawd
Likewise, Warlock has taken a blast from Galactus, but Doom puts him down in one shot? Is the PIS Warlock surviving the blast from Galactus or Doom putting Warlock down in one shot? Or does Doom hit as hard as Galactus? Or is Galactus that weak?
Ok. Someone talking about PIS Warlock? Warlock is like a brother to me. So I have to stick up for him, like long sticks up for his dad Strange.
Warlock talking smack, then taking a blast from Big G point blank:
Making Mephisto wonder if it was wise to ever cross Warlock:
Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet:
Warlock saving the day with Strange:
Warlock about to give Thanos his first death:
Warlock saving the day again in THE END saga where talks Thanos into recreating everything he's destroyed:
Warlock is an enigma and his powers are also an enigma. Warlock getting thrashed by beings as like Thor and Hercules are PIS. Doom putting down Warlock with one blast is PIS. But who eventually retrieves the IG from Nebula??? Warlock. Warlock hangs with beings like Thanos, Magus, and the Infinity Thrall. Has an affinity to all six of the infinity gems, not just the soul gem. Warlock is the man!!!
Back to the topic, this is what Firelord's stats are and actually look like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firelord
and here as well:
http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-firelord.html
Firelord should win this rematch. Should...
Originally posted by Sentry
Ok. Someone talking about PIS Warlock? Warlock is like a brother to me. So I have to stick up for him, like long sticks up for his dad Strange.Warlock talking smack, then taking a blast from Big G point blank:
Making Mephisto wonder if it was wise to ever cross Warlock:
Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet:
Warlock saving the day with Strange:
Warlock about to give Thanos his first death:
Warlock saving the day again in THE END saga where talks Thanos into recreating everything he's destroyed:
Warlock is an enigma and his powers are also an enigma. Warlock getting thrashed by beings as like Thor and Hercules are PIS. Doom putting down Warlock with one blast is PIS. But who eventually retrieves the IG from Nebula??? Warlock. Warlock hangs with beings like Thanos, Magus, and the Infinity Thrall. Has an affinity to all six of the infinity gems, not just the soul gem. Warlock is the man!!!
Back to the topic, this is what Firelord's stats are and actually look like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firelord
and here as well:
http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-firelord.html
Firelord should win this rematch. Should...
Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Should we dismiss a Spiderman victory over Hulk because there was a gamma generator nearby? Do you really have to ask that question. Absolutley we should. Would you dismiss a Superman loss that happened at a kryptonite meteor landing sight?Would we dismiss an Aquaman fight that happened in the Sahara (if he even still has that weakness)? Isn't that a little too conveniant to you? Do you see where the term "plot induced" comes from. The writers can't come up with a better story and can't find a way around something so all of a sudden we're playing Bad Fur Day and we can expect to just waltz up to the "B" and get exactly the item we need?
The basic point being made is that events like this should be applied to debating..using "logical arguments." Usually these types of arguments consist of some sort of valid evidence which support them...such as combination of character stats and history.
Using this rationale...I believe it would be fair to state that it would be foolish to use the example below in a debate context...
Batman has taken a punch from Superman..therefore he can take a full force punch from Spider Man..
..based on the fact that it is very inconsistant with what we know of the charcter and his respective abilities/overall history.
However..it is "logical" to argue..that based on Batman's overall showing against opponents much more powerful than himself...that he is very resourceful, a great tactician..and given the right circumstances..it is very possible for him to overcome enemies that are much stronger and much more powerful than himself.
This same type of rationale can be applied to the SM "PIS" battles mentioned by Demi..and in actuality, SM's "PIS" is a lot more believable/consistant with his overall character than the Batman example given above. Read any of the summaries that I provided..or do some research on those stories that Demi mentioned in his original post. In all of them, I can guarantee you that SM uses his "known" abilities to overcome said opponents(ie Speed, webbing, precog, strength, etc..etc)
Hulk being knocked into a gamma generator, Superman being weakened by Kryptonite..etc..etc..are all plot devices...used to enhance story/battle..making both much more interesting. How many people would like to see a battle between Superman and Batman that lasted one page? Or read a Hulk and SM battle that lasted a panel...not many.
So when should we consider a plot device in a story PIS/CIS?
IMO..when its inconsistant with what a character's known abilities are, there is little or no character history supporting said plot device, and there is no "logical" reason/explanation given supporting said plot device.
How many times has Wolverine survived a nuke? Or Batman survived a non pulled punch to the head from Superman? Is it consistant with what Marvel/DC have stated each of these characters abilities are, or what they have been able to do in a majority of their comics? I don't mind a character getting an upgrade..but give me some sort of explanation as to why all of the sudden said character has this newfound ability.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
The basic point being made is that events like this should be applied to debating..using "logical arguments." Usually these types of arguments consist of some sort of valid evidence which support them...such as combination of character stats and history.Using this rationale...I believe it would be fair to state that it would be foolish to use the example below in a debate context...
[b]
Batman has taken a punch from Superman..therefore he can take a full force punch from Spider Man....based on the fact that it is very inconsistant with what we know of the charcter and his respective abilities/overall history.
However..it is "logical" to argue..that based on Batman's overall showing against opponents much more powerful than himself...that he is very resourceful, a great tactician..and given the right circumstances..it is very possible for him to overcome enemies that are much stronger and much more powerful than himself.
This same type of rationale can be applied to the SM "PIS" battles mentioned by Demi..and in actuality, SM's "PIS" is a lot more believable/consistant with his overall character than the Batman example given above. Read any of the summaries that I provided..or do some research on those stories that Demi mentioned in his original post. In all of them, I can guarantee you that SM uses his "known" abilities to overcome said opponents(ie Speed, webbing, precog, strength, etc..etc)
Hulk being knocked into a gamma generator, Superman being weakened by Kryptonite..etc..etc..are all plot devices...used to enhance story/battle..making both much more interesting. How many people would like to see a battle between Superman and Batman that lasted one page? Or read a Hulk and SM battle that lasted a panel...not many.
So when should we consider a plot device in a story PIS/CIS?
IMO..when its inconsistant with what a character's known abilities are, there is little or no character history supporting said plot device, and there is no "logical" reason/explanation given supporting said plot device.How many times has Wolverine survived a nuke? Or Batman survived a non pulled punch to the head from Superman? Is it consistant with what Marvel/DC have stated each of these characters abilities are, or what they have been able to do in a majority of their comics? I don't mind a character getting an upgrade..but give me some sort of explanation as to why all of the sudden said character has this newfound ability. [/B]
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, please clarify in a consice manner.
All I heard was "It's ok for the character to have exactly what he needs to beat the opposing character."
Originally posted by MERCILOUS
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, please clarify in a consice manner.All I heard was "It's ok for the character to have exactly what he needs to beat the opposing character."
Concise response:
It's okay to use "PIS examples" to debate by..as long as they support a logical argument...
ie. Batman defeating Superman, KO'ing Hulk, etc...etc..can be used to support the logical argument that Batman is an extremely resourceful and very tactical opponent..Same type of argument can be used for Spider Man's "PIS" examples..
A Plot device should only be considered PIS/CIS, if no logical explanation is given to support it.
ie. Wolverine can now survive and regenerate from nuclear explosions..even though his history/stats have shown him to be ko'd by simple kicks, punches, or things much much much weaker. To my knowledge..no real explanation has ever been given regarding this upgrade. It's also been stated by Marvel that if he sustains sufficient damage to his internal organs..he can be killed.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Concise response:It's okay to use "PIS examples" to debate by..as long as they support a logical argument...
ie. Batman defeating Superman, KO'ing Hulk, etc...etc..can be used to support the logical argument that Batman is an extremely resourceful and very tactical opponent..Same type of argument can be used for Spider Man's "PIS" examples..
A Plot device should only be considered PIS/CIS, if no logical explanation is given to support it.
ie. Wolverine can now survive and regenerate from nuclear explosions..even though his history/stats have shown him to be ko'd by simple kicks, punches, or things much much much weaker. To my knowledge..no real explanation has ever been given regarding this upgrade. It's also been stated by Marvel that if he sustains sufficient damage to his internal organs..he can be killed.
Oh, well, I can actually get behind that.
I actually love the Spiderman vs. Firelord issue. That's right, I said it.
I love it because Firelord by all rights should have won. Spidey knew it too. He spent most of the issue running away and baiting Firelord into traps and ambushes. Firelord was being (ahem) hotheaded and c.ocky. He was going to teach this insignificant whelp a lesson. FL got hit with a train, had a gas station blown up on him and other such big hits as he just kept taking them and going on about how it was hopeless. Finally, Spidey just looses it and freaks out on Firelord like Ralphie beating up the bully in "A Christmas Story." The panel has Firelord standing there with his hands over his face as Spidey is just a blur all around him. When the Avengers get there Cap has to pull him off of the stunned Firelord.
The point being: Firelord could have easily beaten Spiderman if he'd fought smart hadn't made it personal. He didn't. He was overconfident and sloppy. At the same time, Spiderman managed to play his best game long enough to overcome the superior foe.
For Spidey, it was USA vs USSR hockey at Lake Placid. For Firelord, it was Casey at the Bat. The unexpected upset, when written well (as opposed to say, Temujin beating up Iron-Man, curse you Grell), can make for one heck of a story.
Originally posted by Laminator_X
I actually love the Spiderman vs. Firelord issue. That's right, I said it.
I have this feeling that LOTS of people here haven't read these two comics - in which a desperate SM gets chased all over NYC by Firelord - but that doesn't stop them to consider the story as crap writing.Their opinions come from hearsay...
The story was a bit exaggerated, but really not that much.
Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
So he was indeed led into those traps, they weren't " outside factors" like some intend to help their arguments?
The last trap seemed to work because Firelord lay on the ground and didn't move anymore - he was hoping to lure SM, and it worked. When SM came near, Firelord stood up and said something like : you fool and SM realized he couldn't escape no more.
The rest is history 😉
Oh yeah, see the scans of whobdamandog for more details.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Spider-Man defeated Firelord with his fists. 🤨Good comic...but they overrated Spider-Man.
If you really want to know about his powers, I recommend the comic issues 240-300. That's of course only my opinion.