Spider-Man vs. Firelord - the rematch

Originally posted by demigawd
I know that when people think of Plot Induced Stupidity, this is the textbook example. It's the legendary, prototypical fight that proves that sometimes...writers just get it completely wrong.

But is it?

Firelord isn't actually the first or only herald-level being Spider-Man has gotten the best of, or who have proven unable to defeat him. Let's look at some other victims:

Gravitron
Titania
Hulk
Magneto
Juggernaut
Silver Surfer
Adam Warlock
The X-Men
The Fantastic Four
Thanos
Eric Masterson Thor
Beta Ray Bill
Loki

So...what is it about Spider-Man? And if a character's power is best measured by his victories...does a victims list like this make Spider-Man one of the most effective heroes in comicdom?

Let's cast a blind eye to this being Spider-Man. Look at the victory list above. Based on that list alone, could this mystery character beat Firelord?

This is Firelord, he'll own Spidey, really bad.

Erm, but Spidey won. So there's your proof.

-DM

P.S. ...just playin' the fanboy here. Don't want anyone popping a blood vessel at my stupidity.

P.P.S. Spidey once webbed Quicksilver too. Written to max potential, he's hella-agile and quick, and we all know travel speed is different from fight speed. I'm not trying to justify Spidey's win over Firelord, it was still dumb, but I think the web-head is closer to some of these people (at least enough to stay alive or stalemate) than many of us think. And there's my serious fanboy bs to go with the even stupider bs earlier.

Some nice PIS arguments.

We're all inclined to lean toward their best or worst showings based upon how we like/dislike a character. Spidey's been manhandled by Dr. Octopus and Scorpion, and the list could go on. But he's also destroyed those people, and has done ridiculous things like beating Firelord, or lifted things well beyond 10 Tons. Given his abilities, and how he's been able to use them, stuff like avoiding Juggs and Hulk, and temporarily hurting Hulk, are believable. The Firelord victory isn't, but if Spidey had simply stayed away from Firelord and given him some problems, I'd have no problem with it. So PIS? I think we can all agree that it's a 'Yes.' But it's never set in stone...and each person's definition of PIS will change from character to character. It's unfortunate, but given an inconsistent set of rules that we're asked to accept in any comic universe, many of which aren't believable to begin with, it's hard to find much that's concrete.

Personally, I think everyone should stop worrying so much. Spidey/Firelord has become this legendary PIS on the forum, and I just find it rather hilarious. Go Spidey!

-DM

Generally smart characters like batman and spiderman have so much PIS/CIS, because you can't measure intelligence, like you can strength.
So if the fare much better against "superior" opponents, people just look at the numbers, and not the strategy the heroes have brought to the table, time and time again.

Spidey Vs Firelord..

part 2..

part 3....fin..(*note I have way to much free time on my hands..)

Was that a spidey speedblits I saw on part 2?

sweet.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Was that a spidey speedblits I saw on part 2?

sweet.

Yup..he's very difficult to see when going all out..the fight with firelord demonstrates the same type of attack style he used when fighting Iron Man 2020, Masterson Thor, Titania, Hulk, Juggernaut, X-Men...etc..etc..etc..Hell..its been stated by just about all of his opponents that he's "lightning fast", a friggin "blur", and next to "impossible" to hit when going all out...and you still have jokers on this board who state that he's as fast as a "peak" human...lol..friggin ridiculous..😆 😆

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Yup..he's very difficult to see when going all out..the fight with firelord demonstrates the same type of attack style he used when fighting Iron Man 2020, Masterson Thor, Titania, Hulk, Juggernaut, X-Men...etc..etc..etc..Hell..its been stated by just about all of his opponents that he's "lightning fast", a friggin "blur", and next to "impossible" to hit when going all out...and you still have jokers on this board who state that he's as fast as a "peak" human...lol..friggin ridiculous..😆 😆

Yep or that peak humans, are slightly slower, or have tricked people to thinking he's spiderman.

Spiderman in high gear, is BRUTAL.

He used a speedblitz on Megawatt, I loved that speedblitz.

Originally posted by K3VIL
Spider-Man's reflexes compared to those of Thor are pathetic.
X-Men possess superhuman reflexes?None of them, Wolverine is on the peak human range, same NC and that's all.
Spider-Man beating Firelord is one of the crappiest stories ever appeared in a comic book, on par with Wolverine killing Lobo with his bone claws.
Spider-Man hasn't got the strenght to knock out a guy that can stay fist to fist with Silver Surfer and match him.

He's not saying that, he's talking about speed and attacking in general.

Didn't you used to think that spiderman beating firelord wasn't that hard to believe?

Originally posted by K3VIL
Spider-Man beat Graviton when he was Captain Universe mode on.
He never beat Thanos or the other guys on the list.
He fought with Titania and fall from the last floor of Dayli Bugle unhurted and he was starting to access to the Captain Universe power, he blasted Titania into oblivsion with a huge energy bolt.
Spider-Man is pushover sometimes.
Strength: Superhuman Class 50 (8/12)
Flight Speed: Warp Speed (12/12)
Stamina: Godlike (9/10)
Durability: Godlike (13/14)
Agility: Enhanced Human (5/7)
Reflexes: Enhanced Human (5/7)
Fighting Skills: Xandarian Nova Corps combat training
Special Skills/Abilities: Knowledge of advanced alien technology and space navigation
Superhuman physical powers: The ability to manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire, making him the humanoid equivalent of a miniature sun, and allowing him to project any form of energy possessed by a star, including heat, light, gravity, radio waves and charged particles; the ability to fly at near light speeds through interstellar space and traverse hyperspace; and near total physical invulnerability

This is Firelord, he'll own Spidey, really bad.

Spider-Man did beat all of these people, and without his Cap Universe powers. He blasted Gravitron with one shot as Cap Universe, yes, but that's not the fight I'm talking about. I'm talking about when Gravvy was part of the "new" Sinister Six, and Spider-Man was able to outmaneuver and beat them ALL.

And he did beat everybody else on the list. We've already discussed some of those battles. Spider-Man beat Thanos while they fought over a Cosmic Cube. This was one of Thanos' earliest appearances. Eric Masterson said that Spider-Man was way too fast for him and Spider-Man was totally wearing him down. Masterson was starting to lose consciousness. etc. etc.

Originally posted by K3VIL
Spider-Man beat Graviton when he was Captain Universe mode on.
He never beat Thanos or the other guys on the list.
He fought with Titania and fall from the last floor of Dayli Bugle unhurted and he was starting to access to the Captain Universe power, he blasted Titania into oblivsion with a huge energy bolt.

This is Firelord, he'll own Spidey, really bad.

I agree. In a normal brawl for all type battle..Spidey goes down quickly, however, I believe demi introduced several stipulations within this battle..those being..

a) Spider Man gets 3 days prep
b) The battle takes place in Manhattan
c) Firelord has no knowledge of their prior battle...

With these rules in place..I definately give SM a much greater chance of winning this battle....it doesn't make it an auto win for him per say..however, his odds of winning greatly increase..

As for your objections to the list demi provided..the only people I'm not aware of him taking on without some assistance are Thanos, Loki, and Beta Ray Bill.

He fought Titania in an early issue of secret wars, without his cosmic powers, and whooped her good, as well as displayed a very good showing against both the Hulk and FF. (links to the summaries of Hulk and FF encounters can be found below)

SpiderMan vs Hulk

Spider Man vs FF

Needless to say..when going all out..the Wall Crawler has proven to be a very difficult opponent for many..

I mentioned Thanos a post ago. Loki was during the storyarc where they find his (Loki's) daughter. Loki tried to catch Spider-Man, but Spider-Man actually dodged all of his magic and hit him repeatedly. Loki didn't appear injured, but he was completely unable to hit Spider-Man with anything.

BRB was in the most recent issue of Stormbreaker, where they were portrayed as equals, exchanging blows on equal terms. In BRB's OWN BOOK!

Originally posted by K3VIL
Spider-Man's reflexes compared to those of Thor are pathetic.

Well you're half right..initially, Thor's reflexes/speed were portrayed to be that of a normal human..it wasn't until recent years that these abilities were amped up a bit..probably to put him more on par with another "Super" hero from another comic book universe.

Thor used to struggle getting his hands on Mongoose for Cripes sake!!! He is essentially "peak human" in all aspects..(speed, agility, reflexes..etc...)

Hell..he even stated in one issue that Mongoose was far too fast for him...anyway...Back on topic..SM's speed/agility are much much greater than that of a peake human, and it is highly believable that using a combination of his speed, agility, and precog..that he could evade stronger, much more powerful opponents...

That was what demi was talking about...

Originally posted by demigawd
I mentioned Thanos a post ago. Loki was during the storyarc where they find his (Loki's) daughter. Loki tried to catch Spider-Man, but Spider-Man actually dodged all of his magic and hit him repeatedly. Loki didn't appear injured, but he was completely unable to hit Spider-Man with anything.

BRB was in the most recent issue of Stormbreaker, where they were portrayed as equals, exchanging blows on equal terms. In BRB's OWN BOOK!

Interesting..But I'm starting to get a bit worried about Ol Petey...the fact that he's going toe to toe with Beta Ray is somewhat laughable...I definately don't want Marvel to do to him what they have done to Wolverine.....I'm still trying to get over the fact that the runt can now survive Ground Zero nuclear explosions...friggin ridiculous...lol...note to Marvel...keep it real guys..or else your dedicated fans are going to be leaving you soon..and you'll be stuck with fickle fanboys..whose "homoerotic love" for their favorite characters...fade as quickly as the setting sun..😆 😆

Agreed...

Spiderman is like the only popular hero untainted as of yet...

This "when Spidey is all out he's untouchable" line, is a piece of rubbish as the "Thing has heart, he wins".
Loki has superhuman reflexes and reaction time, as all Asgardians, and are more than sufficient to hit Spider-Man, that was shooted from the Punisher and hitted from common human marksmen like Boomerang in the past, or Whiplash, or Goblin and Hobgoblin.
Spider-Man is just set in "pushover mode" from his writers to grant him fans and success.One issue he's struggling to beat down the human in costume known as Hobgoblin, the other he's going hth with a Sinister Six roster which comprend Graviton, a guy that was able to lift Manhattan, hold an Avengers roster at bay with ease, meanwhile blasting Thor with concussive force sufficient to destroy a mountain and increase gravity around him at the point the asgardian prince was barely able to move.
Graviton can stop Spider-Man just repelling him, not even waving his hands.
Spider-Man beating Firelord was to me, a child of 10years old when I read it, a no sense fight, cause I already known sufficient things of Marvel characters at that age to know Spidey beating Firelord was just a battle to give success to the wall crawler.

P.S. Spider-Man fist to fist with BRB in possess of a fraction of Odin Power?
Pathetic, Marvel is becoming ridicoulus.