I've decided to skip tdtd's arguments, since it's more loudmouthed arrogance than any founding in reason. Faunus' post was very good and made me put the idea of knowledge and actual power better into perspective. But the Troll's forum bashing and ad hominems are tiresome.
Lightsnake:
Said technique is still active then. Tholme uses it on himself. Sever Force?
The Tedryn holocron, which recorded Odan's secrets was held by the Jedi of the PT era. Which would include Yoda.
Source: Jedi vs. Sith. The bit of the section of Sever Force reveals Odan's knowledge on that technique specifically was passed down
My stance is this: Odan-Urr's technique is supposively difficult and used only in times of dire need.
Why did Mace or Yoda not use this technique? It's not like it has prep time or anything. Odan-Urr did it instantly, as did Nomi. So I'm led to believe that either Yoda was a buffoon who did not use a great tool within his power (Which is not inconceivable) or he simply wasn't able to do it. That's a reasonable stance, don't you agree?
Odan specifically noted the thing was refusing to give up its secrets to him.
I really hate to use the words 'useless dolt,' but that sums up Odan pretty well, and by the PT, Jedi Council members as Yoda had an entire wall full of Sith Holocrons to study and prepare from.
I withdrew this statement when Red Nemesis corrected me. And Odan-Urr is a bit old and stupid in some ways. Genius, but lacking common sense.
And 'experience' in the Hyperspace war? The 'experience' of standing around, looking sadly at people getting cut to ribbons thanks to his own incompetence? The 'mopping up?' Of who? Massassi and lower ranked Sith considering all the Dark Lords were killed or fled? The 'mopping up' consisted or orbital bombardment of the Sith into extinction. I'm finding it a bit hard to believe Odan had much combat experience at all when he pretty much immediately skipped off to Ossus to found the library
Re-read the scan, LS. Odan-Urr talks about the days following the battle, and how he had to learn the ability. He never once uses it in the Fall of the Sith Empire depicting him as a newbie. Indeed, the actual "war" in the comic is concluded with a simple space battle in which Naga Sadow flees using his explosion as a decoy. That space battle was concluded in a single day, and Empress Teta, who led the attack, recalled her ships. Odan-Urr was subsequently allowed to go back to the ships left in orbit and glean them for artifacts.
His words here, however, imply heavily that there were following battles, mopping up, what have you. Either that, or you're asserting that he learned the Sever Force ability while standing next to his dying master's side, which is ridiculous. You cannot become "adept" at what you're doing if you aren't doing it.
When Ulic is notably not defending himself or even noticing Nomi is there when he's busy sobbing hysterically over his brother's corpse in realization of what he's done?
Nomi is awesome, but it's not that impressive a feat if the opponent isn't even defending himself.
Defending himself isn't even a defensible argument, LS. Exar Kun couldn't have known Odan-Urr was going to immediately try and sever his connection to the Force, and yet he still resisted it. It's probably an innate balance of the power of the user versus the power of the target. Exar Kun's Force powers excelled Odan-Urr's by many times, rendering even his adeptness and his wisdom in the Force useless. That speaks levels of his power. Considering Anakin Skywalker can't overcome Obi-Wan Kenobi who himself was chucked around like a ragdoll, I don't see Annie being much help to Yoda.
And as we know, from several sources, it can be resisted.
Odan's power should be called into utter question. He is nowhere near as strong as Yoda, or Palpatine, or Exar, or Luke, or Galen Marek, or Bane, or plenty of other people. Why will his ability suddenly work on them when they're defending themselves? I sincerely doubt Kun had any knowledge of the technique and it didn't cost him much.
Are you making the assumption I'm arguing Exar Kun is going to use the sever Force ability? You were speed reading this again, weren't you? I never made any such claim. Odan-Urr's level of power as a Jedi master was called into question because supposively Exar Kun lacked the amount of Force potential and power to manhandle Anakin Skywalker. Considering Odan-Urr is the closest Yoda-like figure in the era, and he was easily dominated by Exar Kun using only the Force, and then Exar Kun went on to use his lightsaber to manhandle who was perhaps the best fighter of that era, it stands to reason that Exar Kun is head and shoulders above most Force users, including Anakin Skywalker who's never showed the same level of power and control, nor the same Sith knowledge.
So to close the open loop here, Exar Kun >>> Anakin Skywalker by a good bit Force-wise, and while I won't stoop to argue he'd wreck Yoda using the Force, his Sith Amulets even the field for him there. He has a very good chance of using those two abilities combined to destroy any cohesion between Skywalker and Yoda and kill one or both outright.
Odan has the deficiency of being:
A. A joke of a combatant. He was known for wisdom, not power or ability and in battle, his grand contributions were doing a grand total of nothing during the battle of Kirrek and encouraging the enemy to fight harder at the start of Golden Age of the Sith.
B. Far weaker than most of the greats who, as we can see from Exar, would probably tool Odan's rear end in the Force before he could defend himself or attack
Wow, you couldn't have cast him in a worse light, could you? Exar could clearly tool the shit out of Odan, that's never in question. My entire argument is that Exar Kun's Force dominance of knowledgeable Jedi Masters is a good indicator that he could "toss Anakin around like a ragdoll". Dooku could do that, and I don't see Dooku killing Odan-Urr with a simple gesture shortly after resisting his sever Force ability which he created and was admittedly quite good at, do you?
At what point did he sever anyone of significant ability 'unwillingly?' The only times I can think of people doing this are:
Nomi on Ulic. Who is not resisting at all.
Kyle Katarn on Jerec according to Wizards on the Coast's article
Darth Caedus on Ben Skywalker
The one time we see Odan try it's a failure
Again, reading comprehension is your friend, LS. I'm starting to think you just sped-read through this and fired off a hasty, combative response.
Odan-Urr tells Nomi in detail about how he learned this ability fighting the ancient Sith. They don't just roll over and expose their bellies and ask for their abilities to be shut off from them, do they? No, they don't. It's quite clear in the implication that Odan-urr honed this ability on nonwilling enemies, ergo, it is an ability designed to strip the force unwillingly.
Is that clear enough for you, or are you going to speed-read over that too?
On their level? On what evidence? Odan devoted apparently no time to power or combat ability.
We have no verifiable instance of Odan-Urr "devoting time to power or combat ability" obviously. He suffers from a lack of exposure which apparently in KMCland equals to disgust and being deficient, but I'll reply to you all the same.
Odan-Urr sat on top of a Jedi stronghold of Force knowledge and information, much of which forms the foundation of modern Force users' knowledge. It stands to reason that by being the foremost Force scholar of his time, he learned the intricacies of the Force in ways few could, especially given his advanced age. Yoda himself is one of the only other Jedi Masters to have his fingers in this amount of knowledge and have the time to fully explore it.
I don't see how this isn't at all clear to you. Time to study + intense knowledge of the Force + creating abilities in battle with Sith = substantial power and knowledge in the Force. This is a pretty clear example. If someone spends a thousand years studying medicine and practices in his spare time and another spends sixty years studying and practices a bit more, is the latter the better doctor by virtue of more practice and significantly less study? Even removing the element of "natural ability", this seems quite obvious.
Yes, it is. Now, why is he going to be able to do the same on a far more able, powerful, dangerous and experienced opponent? Someone who has studied how to combat the Sith arts? Someone who had access to Odan's wisdom from the Tedryn Holocron? Someone with such a massive wealth of knowledge, power and combat experience backed up by one of the most powerful young Jedi ever?
So you're countering my argument with... a blanket argument that lacks substantiation? How does that work?
1. So Yoda is better than Odan-urr by virtue of what exactly? More exposure? Vague, unsupported assertions? Work with me here.
2. Odan-Urr and the Jedi Masters of Exar Kun's age were ignorant to Sith Lords, but Yoda is somehow the master of fighting them? How does this stack up?
3. So someone who draws on the recorded wisdom of the original is somehow better than the original by virtue of what? Having more exposure? Hyperbole and blanket arguments? Vague, unsupported statements which need to be substantiated? Did I miss anything, LS? Are you actually arguing here, or just shouting out your opinion while deriding mine?
4. This last one is so ridiculous it could be framed and admired by idiots everywhere. Substantiate all of this or stuff it, LS. I'll be honest - it's been awhile since I've seen you argue this blindly, and it's painful to watch. Prove to me why I had respect for you as a debator and don't start acting like tdtd. I don't cave to assertions. Follow Faunus' example and piece something together which I will respect, even if I don't remain convinced. Fair enough?
Oh, please, this is blatant bias.
For starters, where is the evidence he can use these powers anywhere near simultaneously? Where is the evidence he can somehow effortlessly multitask against two experienced enemies?
Why won't Yoda be dodging the beams and attacking back at Exar with Anakin?
No, it makes sense. If you read the comics again and slower this time you'd see that Exar Kun, while having no prior experience with the item, started moving and blasting the Sith wyrm with ease. He was not stationary, and the maneuver did not slow him down. Likewise, using the Force to throw or push someone is not negated by firing off pure hatred from your arm with the aid of a Sith artifact. If it was, Exar Kun wouldn't be able to use the Force to fuel his motions, would he?
So really, your "blah blah that's biased!" complaint amounts to nothing. It's perfectly reasonable to assume Kun can use the Force to push or pull Skywalker to the side while spamming those blasts at Yoda. Considering Yoda was initially caught off guard by a short burst of lightning which was inferior to the Sith amulet blasts from someone he knew was a Sith Lord like Kun, I don't really want to be the one to say "Yoda will simply avoid those and coordinate with Skywalker, who for sure will avoid them too!". I'd hate to sound stupid.
[quoteYeah, because Yoda is going to lack any hint of strategy, capability or intelligence all of a sudden, and Exar is enough of a god to effortlessly divide himself up here.
This is silly, Janus.[/quote]
No, not really. But the burden of proof is on the other side to indicate Yoda will either recognize the blasts and avoid them or that he would have a means to deal with them. Even if he did start hopping around like a toad, it's not like Kun's going to sit still and be snuck up on while he has to reload or anything. He can backpedal or leap about and spam those blasts. Even if he doesn't bother to use the Force on Anakin, he could conceivably fire a blast at Yoda who has to evade, then one at Skywalker who has to evade, and keep this up until one or both mess up. It's his ace in the hole. And really, it's not like Anakin Skywalker is Yoda's greatest teammate or anything.
Oh, God, the 'amulet blasts' argument.It's not like Sith artifacts can be disabled via the Force, or Exar having to divide attention, or Yoda knowing things like Morichro, Malacia, and given he had the Tedryn Holocron, Force sever. Or just leap up and throw up a force shield and then launch a force wave when Exar is too busy focusing on blasting everything like a deranged lunatic to bother with defense.
Oh God, LS being obtuse again.
1. Where is it shown that a Force-artifact like Kun's can be "disabled via the Force"? Use canon sources please. No bullshit.
2. Dividing attention? It's assumed they're attacking him from the front and he has the initial opportunity to shoot them with something Skywalker's never seen and Yoda's never personally dealt with, even if we assume he has knowledge of Kun walking into the fight.
3. Show me a good argument of why any of those Force abilities will work on a person who dominated every single Force user in his era. Why? Because Yoda will use them and he's the "omfg greatest jedi evar according to Stover's book!" or he has more exposure than a comic book character which you clearly dispise for his "long ponytail"?
4. What Force Shield has canonically been shown to prevent these attacks?
5. Since when is Kun so stupid that he'd just sit there and spam blasts which weren't having any affect, assuming that's the case?
Here's one - stop making vague unsupported assertions, LS.
Unless they are remotely comparable to yoda and anakin in power and ability, irrelevant.
My stance: Exar Kun's shown dominating the premier Force users of his era - esteemed masters who fought ancient Sith, battle masters, jedi knights, etc. He is undefeated and shows amazing Force ability.
Your stance: None of them stack up to Yoda or Anakin. Proof? **** you, thats my proof.
Please. Stop embarassing yourself with this senseless rhetoric. You've been hanging around the wrong crowd for too long, LS.
And as the Jedi in question here are more powerful and skilled than those Jedi, irrelevant. Yoda has dominated a Dark Lord of the Sith with relative ease, who was also a top tier Jedi master before growing even stronger
Good god, I'm not even going to touch on that assertion. I'll just let it slide by as a lack of sleep, or a small case of the stupids. I can't believe you're talking like this LS.
You neglect to mention here that what he did with Kyp was play off his fears. There was no force domination there, there was seducing him to the Dark Side.
You also neglect to mention that Streen was able to stop that choking.
1. Kyp was dominated. It's not the end-all of points, but it is a point. He lured Kyp first, dominated him second.
2. His Force spirit was 4000 years old and still contained enough remnant power to do even that. It's a feat we can't claim Obi-Wan, Anakin or even Yoda's force ghosts accomplished that.
This has bearing on a more powerful era, how? Darth Bane was also undefeated and unequalled during his timeframe. Same might go for Revan.
My point here is a simple: What bearing does this have on anything?
The context is important, LS. You claim Yoda > others by virtue of his standing within his own timeframe. You believe it makes sense. Yoda most certainly is better than other Force users in his era, including Skywalker by a far margin. But then when I say Exar Kun > others of his timeframe and by extension he should be considerable enough to fight Yoda and Skywalker, especially with his amulet to offset the numerical balance, you say "Balls, that means nothing. Here's some random drivel about Bane and Revan to undermine your point". I don't quite follow, LS. Are you debating here or starting a pissing contest?
Oh, so the 'they just haven't been in enough' argument? No, that doesn't fly. Odan appeared in three six issue miniseries, that's more than enough time to show something. Kun was in two and was practically the star villain of two novels, with a ton of writing in third party material.
I'm afraid the 'grandiose narration' is still part of the continuity and just because the PT have had more time to show off doesn't mean they're less powerful. If we have to decide between the guys with more backing or the guys with less, where we do we go logically, now?
That's the crux of your agrument though, isn't it? If I say Odan-Urr is a top level Force master on the levels of Yoda and Mace you immediately go "nuh uh!" Why? Because Odan-urr hasn't done the sheer amount of combat and force feats they have. Why? Because of lack of exposure. Odan-urr was a supporting character in a comic book series which is limited media, which came out before the PT-era was solidified in movie form. Of course Mace and Yoda have great showings - they're central characters in the entire movies series, plus Clone Wars novels, cartoons, games, RPG books, etc.
You know how much new information has come out about Odan-Urr since the comics were released? None. That's how much.
You know how much new information has come out about Yoda, Mace, and Anakin in the same timeframe? Shitloads. The entire basis of how you judge these characters has been effected by the massive exposure their getting and the verbal fellatio some authors choose to lap on there.
So really, if you want to argue to me "Odan-urr should have explicitly higher showings in his limited exposure or else he sucks worse than Yoda", you should concede at the very least that he has "high showings" among his own timeframe and media exposure. Among the comic books of his era, he was Yoda's equal as he was the eldest, wisest, and implicitly strongest in the Force, and Exar Kun dominated him. Thus endeth the argument.
That 'excessive' knowledge line applies to Yoda. Oh, and is there any evidence of Odan fighting Sith now? As I pointed out, he did nothing during the Kirrek battle. The only Dark Lords left had either fled or died after Naga's purge and escape, leaving practically undefended Sith worlds to be genocided.
Odan headed to Ossus after the war. There is no evidence he ever left it since and devoted himself to learning and knowledge.
This was refuted earlier in my agrument. Assuming you aren't speed-reading again and making senseless assumptions, you might have already addressed it.
as Yoda happily points out to Whie Malreaux, Yoda's fought and killed more than Whie can imagine. Yoda's early years are shrouded in mystery, but he did a lot of traveling, learning and there was quite a few battling with dark siders along the way. It's implied that he might well have battled some Sith along the way and unlike Odan, when the chips were down in a fight, Yoda proved himself.
Yoda's had brushes with Dark Siders. Nowhere has he engaged in Sith that I remember, especially since the Sith have been in hiding for over a thousand years. Of course, with recent canon changes happening left and right, this may be the case. Yoda's offhand statement to Whie Malreux doesn't convince me that he's suddenly the world expert on fighting Sith, versus someone who lived in a time when Sith were around and apparently learned an ability to shut them off routinely from the Force after Sadow's forces were destroyed. I'm not saying Yoda couldn't school most dark siders quite easily (He did a fine job with Sidious) but a large majority of Yoda's life was spent being a couch potato too and reading. I don't see how you claim Odan-Urr is innately inferior to Yoda in Force mastery simply because he wasn't out killing Dark Siders in his younger years.
Oh wait, he was.
And? When Yoda opened himself to the Force, he was a nearly unstoppable fighter and has demonstrated incredible levels of speed and strength
That happens to any Jedi who knows what they're doing. Luke does it, Mace does it, Revan does it, etc. "Opening yourself to the Force" requires knowledge, not necessarily just power alone, or else Anakin Skywalker would have destroyed Yoda long ago, right?
Skipping the next part because it's been addressed.
Yeah, except there's no evidence he 'made up' the ability and I question his definition of Sith Lord, knowing the Sith Lords were fled or dead by the time Odan would have entered combat.
If he can use sever force on a Sith Acolyte? Good for him.
His is the first time it's mentioned. His description implies that he either made it, or took it and perfected it. Either way is impressive. If you're assuming that any Dark Side users worth a damn were dead or gone by the time Odan-urr participated in the following clean up process, I'd love to see something definite. The only Sith Lords killed included Ludo Kressh and those loyal to him and Sadow. lower level Sith Lords may have still survived, and since there's no way to truly differentiate their individual Force levels, there's no way to say random Sith is weaker than anyone other than Exar Kun, since Kun is the only exception to Odan-Urr's experience that we know.
Unlike that mongrel idiot Odan, Yoda might actually put some stock in how severing people from the force is a horrible thing not to be done lightly. Not only that, notice how Vodo and Nomi don't use it on Ulic permanently? Or join together for an attack on Exar with it?
By that same standard, when would Yoda have found need or necessity to do so? He needed to kill Palpatine, his equal or near-equal in the Force who would conceivably be able to resist it. And he's there to KILL Palpatine. he wants to save Dooku, not destroy him.The only other times I recall Yoda facing Dark Siders are the Bpfasshi group who he kills and Ventress who he handily defeats without even igniting his saber.
Whoa, way to show hatred for a comic book character, LS. A bit cranky lately, aren't you? Maybe you're arguing this way because you're upset or sick. Normally you don't sound like this much of a hateful blowhard.
Yoda not using the ability nor mentioning it opens up a lot of questions. Did he know of it? Could he do it? If not, why not? Why would he not use it when appropriate? Odan-Urr used it to defend himself when he knew he was in the presence of a dark lord. He keenly sensed Exar Kun's power and malice before Kun was fully in the room and immediately decided to use that ability to render the Force from Kun. That's quite telling. In a situation where evil is loose in the galaxy, Odan-urr, your "idiot mongrel" attempts to remove their one claim to power. A smart thing to do. Yoda, who himself could have stopped the war, saved millions, and changed the fate of the galaxy by simply doing the same thing to Dooku and Sidious, did not even bring the idea up.
So seriously - how is Odan-urr an idiot for doing the smartest, quickest thing to disable a Dark Sider while Yoda never even considers it despite the fact that it cost the lives of millions in a war and the lives of the entire Jedi Order? Which is a more moral choice, do you think?
Also, if Force Sever is in such wide appeal during the TOTJ era, why did nobody do it during the third great Schism? Might've helped save an entire star system before the Dark Jedi destroyed it. The idea of Odan just going "Lol Sever Force" at every opportunity is kind of undercut given that the one single time he faced an opponent of great power, his attempt failed and he was instantly killed.
Outside of the fact that the third Great Schism isn't even included in TOTJ works (Nice attention to detail there), Odan-urr's failure at something which he was adept at and something which worked easily on Ulic speaks measures for Kun, and less so for Odan-urr. Ultimately, I'm not out to prove Odan-Urr directly equals Yoda or that he's even better (Which is a ridiculous stance that you're seizing on here) but that he's a top level Force master and his sheer knowledge and practice of the Force alone implies that Exar Kun, who is much better, is amazing enough to kill Skywalker and with those amulet blasts potentially kill Yoda too.
Ridiculous assertion. There is no evidence Odan is more powerful and far more evidence on Yoda's side. Plus, Yoda's power in regards to other Jedi is directly stated in certain places.
Keyword on my part is vastly, but either way I'm not making the assertion that "Odan is more powerful" than Yoda. I'll say this again:
Read my posts slower!
You've consistently shown a lack of reading comprehension and attacked points I haven't even made.
Also, of course Yoda's power is stacked a lot against other Jedi in his own time -- he has tons of exposure. It's common sense. You'll likely never see Odan-Urr in EU again.
So what? Unless this has bearing on Yoda, it is irrelevant. Compare and contrast Yoda's abilities to Kun's alones and see who comes out on top. Kun can beat Yoda's inferiors. This isn't a strong case for him at all.
So you're saying I have to stack Exar Kun linearly alongside Yoda in Force powers because... this will somehow resolve the issue of the Sith amulets? Actually, my initial point was against Skywalker, who is a flea in this fight. Some of Kun's showings indicate his shrugging off of Odan-Urr's "difficult" ability which he was "adept" at and his subsequent Force-choking of Odan which killed the 1000 year old Jedi Master. If you needed to substantiate Exar Kun's Force showings without picking a particular example against inferiors (Such as the Senate, or Sylvar, for example) this is perhaps his best example. If it doesn't satisfy you, I suggest a cold shower and a cigarette, because that's all we have to work with.
Yeah, we know Kun is something, but guess what? So is Yoda. Yoda's own feats are enough to place him up alongside the best and that includes Exar. His own demonstrated feats are enough to make a case for him on his own against Kun and it's a good case.
That Yoda>>>>the other Jedi based on available evidence and demonstrated ability plus heavy textual backing on Yoda's behalf? Not so flawed
If this statement wasn't followed by your signature, I would have assumed some random insignificant KMC personality posted it. Really, you're slipping. Slowly reread everything I've posted here and get back to me when you make sense, okay?
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I've decided to skip tdtd's arguments, since it's more loudmouthed arrogance than any founding in reason. Faunus' post was very good and made me put the idea of knowledge and actual power better into perspective. But the Troll's forum bashing and ad hominems are tiresome.
1. I have stated what Faunus and lightsnake have stated. Just because I choose not to be bullied by you and also choose to point out your incompetence and pseudo intellect, no need to get angry with me.
2. You are the very epitome of a troll, coming back to this forum, getting pwned, running back to your dying forum until you realize that even by your best efforts, you're not liked in real life nor the internet, by which time you come back to KMC, troll around, get pwned, and retreat again. We've seen this happen far too many times.
3. I think you're the only one who believes you have any reasoning abilities, much less objecitivty. I guess delusion, egocentrism, and lack of self awareness are all connected.
4. The fact that you're egocentric and possess 0 self awareness is far too evident. Calling you a hypocrite wouldn't even register in that minute brain of yours. Now please Janus, stop embarrassing yourself and continue your career as a lowly customer service rep-running-a-dead-forum.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I've decided to skip tdtd's arguments, since it's more loudmouthed arrogance than any founding in reason. Faunus' post was very good and made me put the idea of knowledge and actual power better into perspective. But the Troll's forum bashing and ad hominems are tiresome.Lightsnake:
My stance is this: Odan-Urr's technique is supposively difficult and used only in times of dire need.
Why did Mace or Yoda not use this technique? It's not like it has prep time or anything.
Odan-Urr did it instantly, as did Nomi.
So I'm led to believe that either Yoda was a buffoon who did not use a great tool within his power (Which is not inconceivable) or he simply wasn't able to do it. That's a reasonable stance, don't you agree?
I withdrew this statement when Red Nemesis corrected me. And Odan-Urr is a bit old and stupid in some ways. Genius, but lacking common sense.
Re-read the scan, LS. Odan-Urr talks about the [b]days following the battle, and how he had to learn the ability.
He never once uses it in the Fall of the Sith Empire depicting him as a newbie. Indeed, the actual "war" in the comic is concluded with a simple space battle in which Naga Sadow flees using his explosion as a decoy. That space battle was concluded in a single day, and Empress Teta, who led the attack, recalled her ships. Odan-Urr was subsequently allowed to go back to the ships left in orbit and glean them for artifacts.
His words here, however, imply heavily that there were following battles, mopping up, what have you.
Either that, or you're asserting that he learned the Sever Force ability while standing next to his dying master's side, which is ridiculous. You cannot become "adept" at what you're doing if you aren't doing it.
Defending himself isn't even a defensible argument, LS. Exar Kun couldn't have known Odan-Urr was going to immediately try and sever his connection to the Force, and yet he still resisted it.
It's probably an innate balance of the power of the user versus the power of the target. Exar Kun's Force powers excelled Odan-Urr's by many times, rendering even his adeptness and his wisdom in the Force useless. That speaks levels of his power. Considering Anakin Skywalker can't overcome Obi-Wan Kenobi who himself was chucked around like a ragdoll, I don't see Annie being much help to Yoda.
Are you making the assumption I'm arguing Exar Kun is going to use the sever Force ability? You were speed reading this again, weren't you? I never made any such claim.
Odan-Urr's level of power as a Jedi master was called into question because supposively Exar Kun lacked the amount of Force potential and power to manhandle Anakin Skywalker. Considering Odan-Urr is the closest Yoda-like figure in the era, and he was easily dominated by Exar Kun using only the Force, and then Exar Kun went on to use his lightsaber to manhandle who was perhaps the best fighter of that era, it stands to reason that Exar Kun is head and shoulders above most Force users, including Anakin Skywalker who's never showed the same level of power and control, nor the same Sith knowledge. /Quote]
Odan is the 'Yoda' figure how? Because he sits there wisely and says cryptically wise things? He's not the Grandmaster of the Order-that title is probably belonging to Arca given the recent KOTOR flashback- and he's shown us very little by way of ability or power.
Exar Kun is head and shoulders above most force users? So are Yoda and Anakin. Anakin, by the by, was able to fling Durge around like a ragdoll with the Force and dominate his mind. This is the same Durge, btw, who just tends to laugh force attacks off. and then Anakin was able to guide the ship Durge was in into the sun. Seems to be a good level of power and control. Also he he overcame Asajj Ventress with the Force
And really, 'perhaps the best fighter' of the era? You're getting this from WHERE? ODAN demonstrated NOTHING in combat. Nothing save failure. Compare him to Arca or Ood, or Vodo, or Kavarr, or numerous other Jedi that we know of now and he falls very flat. He was held in esteem for wisdom. At no point is his 'power' or combat ability praised. he has one technique which tends not to work if the enemy can resist it.
[Quote]
So to close the open loop here, Exar Kun >>> Anakin Skywalker by a good bit Force-wise, and while I won't stoop to argue he'd wreck Yoda using the Force, his Sith Amulets even the field for him there.
He has a very good chance of using those two abilities combined to destroy any cohesion between Skywalker and Yoda and kill one or both outright.
Wow, you couldn't have cast him in a worse light, could you? Exar could clearly tool the shit out of Odan, that's never in question. My entire argument is that Exar Kun's Force dominance of knowledgeable Jedi Masters is a good indicator that he could "toss Anakin around like a ragdoll"
. Dooku could do that, and I don't see Dooku killing Odan-Urr with a simple gesture shortly after resisting his sever Force ability which he created and was admittedly quite good at, do you?
Again, reading comprehension is your friend, LS. I'm starting to think you just sped-read through this and fired off a hasty, combative response.
Odan-Urr tells Nomi in detail about how he learned this ability fighting the ancient Sith. They don't just roll over and expose their bellies and ask for their abilities to be shut off from them, do they?
No, they don't. It's quite clear in the implication that Odan-urr honed this ability on nonwilling enemies, ergo, it is an ability designed to strip the force unwillingly.
Is that clear enough for you, or are you going to speed-read over that too?
We have no verifiable instance of Odan-Urr "devoting time to power or combat ability" obviously. He suffers from a lack of exposure which apparently in KMCland equals to disgust and being deficient, but I'll reply to you all the same.
Odan-Urr sat on top of a Jedi stronghold of Force knowledge and information, much of which forms the foundation of modern Force users' knowledge.
It stands to reason that by being the foremost Force scholar of his time, he learned the intricacies of the Force in ways few could, especially given his advanced age. Yoda himself is one of the only other Jedi Masters to have his fingers in this amount of knowledge and have the time to fully explore it.
I don't see how this isn't at all clear to you. Time to study + intense knowledge of the Force + creating abilities in battle with Sith = substantial power and knowledge in the Force.
This is a pretty clear example. If someone spends a thousand years studying medicine and practices in his spare time and another spends sixty years studying and practices a bit more, is the latter the better doctor by virtue of more practice and significantly less study? Even removing the element of "natural ability", this seems quite obvious. [/B]
Both have to 'reach deep' into the Force first. Considering Nomi used it after hearing about it once, seems that it'sConsidering Nomi also picked up a lightsaber for the first time and wielded it "like a master," that's a bad example. She's a prodigy, not the standard by which others should be judged. Vergere is old and has demonstrated a broad range of knowledge with the Force, having been a Jedi Knight, Sith apprentice, and observer of the Vong. The technique Tholme used cannot actually be the same unless someone else rekindled his connection for him. How can someone with no connection to the Force simply give himself the ability to touch it again?
I'm not familiar with Kyle's use of it, so I'm hoping you can fill me in on that a little.
Wasn't able to 'overcome?' Both hit one another with their attacksAnd then stalled for several seconds because neither could overpower the other.
and sent eachother flying and Obi took more of the damage.Obi-Wan "took more damage"? Don't make things up.
Anakin's reserves of power are enough to collapse a buildingAn old, likely radiation-damaged ceiling that he unintentionally brought down when he roared. It was an accident.
with a single emanation of the Force and he's got the greatest reserves of just about anyone ever.Which he means he probably won't tire out, not that he can go Force-pounding people into oblivion.
Add that to one of the most unquestionably powerful, able and skilled Jedi Masters ever, even with Anakin adding his power to Yoda or lashing out at Kun and what is Kun going to do?"Adding his power"? You understand that this is the raging Sith Lord Darth Vader, right? Cohesiveness probably isn't his thing.
He's facing two of the strongest Force Users everAnakin is not a heavyweight when it comes to effective use of the Force. His power makes him a dangerous swordsman and certainly a force to be reckoned with, but even Obi-Wan - despite having comparatively negligible potential - was able to completely counter his Force-push when Skywalker was at his pre-suit peak.
Yoda can throw up a force shield, redirect and absorb enemy, or that Sith amulets and talismans can be destroyed...How?
or that Yoda has shown himself capable of dodging things much bigger than those beamsWhat, and when?
The first episodes of the new Clone Wars show show him demonstrating more than the ability to do so.No they don't. He fights super battledroids and casually disarms Asajj Ventress. Hardly Exar Kun-level enemies.
Originally posted by Darth SexyHe was talking to a "tdtd," whom you do not know.
Since the great Janus can't seem to stop embarrassing himself, let's point out a few things here..1. I have stated what Faunus and lightsnake have stated. Just because I choose not to be bullied by you and also choose to point out your incompetence and pseudo intellect, no need to get angry with me.
2. You are the very epitome of a troll, coming back to this forum, getting pwned, running back to your dying forum until you realize that even by your best efforts, you're not liked in real life nor the internet, by which time you come back to KMC, troll around, get pwned, and retreat again. We've seen this happen far too many times.
3. I think you're the only one who believes you have any reasoning abilities, much less objecitivty. I guess delusion, egocentrism, and lack of self awareness are all connected.
4. The fact that you're egocentric and possess 0 self awareness is far too evident. Calling you a hypocrite wouldn't even register in that minute brain of yours. Now please Janus, stop embarrassing yourself and continue your career as a lowly customer service rep-running-a-dead-forum.
Just saying.
Originally posted by Faunus
He was talking to a "tdtd," whom you do not know.Just saying.
He was referring to me, while calling me "tdtd". So I'm allowed to reply to his stupidity. That is of course, unless you kids want to go on that pointless witch hunt again, which did absolutely nothing but waste time.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
So you're countering my argument with... a blanket argument that lacks substantiation? How does that work?1. So Yoda is better than Odan-urr by virtue of what exactly? More exposure? Vague, unsupported assertions? Work with me here.
2. Odan-Urr and the Jedi Masters of Exar Kun's age were ignorant to Sith Lords, but Yoda is somehow the master of fighting them? How does this stack up?
As we know from Jedi vs. Sith, most Sith Holocrons will share their knowledge. The Telos Holocron did so to Tionne very freely. Dooku accessed some in his youth, secretly.
The better chance they'll have of corrupting Jedi.
3. So someone who draws on the recorded wisdom of the original is somehow better than the original by virtue of what? Having more exposure? Hyperbole and blanket arguments? Vague, unsupported statements which need to be substantiated? Did I miss anything, LS? Are you actually arguing here, or just shouting out your opinion while deriding mine?
4. This last one is so ridiculous it could be framed and admired by idiots everywhere. Substantiate all of this or stuff it, LS. I'll be honest - it's been awhile since I've seen you argue this blindly, and it's painful to watch.Prove to me why I had respect for you as a debator and don't start acting like tdtd. I don't cave to assertions. Follow Faunus' example and piece something together which I will respect, even if I don't remain convinced. Fair enough?
No, it makes sense. [b]If you read the comics again and slower this time you'd see that Exar Kun, while having no prior experience with the item, started moving and blasting the Sith wyrm with ease.
He was not stationary, and the maneuver did not slow him down. Likewise, using the Force to throw or push someone is not negated by firing off pure hatred from your arm with the aid of a Sith artifact. If it was, Exar Kun wouldn't be able to use the Force to fuel his motions, would he?
So really, your "blah blah that's biased!" complaint amounts to nothing. It's perfectly reasonable to assume Kun can use the Force to push or pull Skywalker to the side while spamming those blasts at Yoda.
Considering Yoda was initially caught off guard by a short burst of lightning which was inferior to the Sith amulet blasts from someone he knew was a Sith Lord like Kun, I don't really want to be the one to say "Yoda will simply avoid those and coordinate with Skywalker, who for sure will avoid them too!". I'd hate to sound stupid.
By that token, Kun is so ridiculously arrogant, he doesn't bother ever using those amulets ever again. What will allow him to raise his arm and fire before Yoda attacks first exactly? How will he divide himself against the simultaneous assaults of two of the most powerful Jedi of all time? Is Kun able to do everything with no effort now? Does he have no limits at all?
No, not really. But the burden of proof is on the other side to indicate Yoda will either recognize the blasts and avoid them or that he would have a means to deal with them.
Even if he did start hopping around like a toad, it's not like Kun's going to sit still and be snuck up on while he has to reload or anything.
He can backpedal or leap about and spam those blasts.
Even if he doesn't bother to use the Force on Anakin, he could conceivably fire a blast at Yoda who has to evade, then one at Skywalker who has to evade, and keep this up until one or both mess up. It's his ace in the hole. And really, it's not like Anakin Skywalker is Yoda's greatest teammate or anything.
Oh God, LS being obtuse again.1. Where is it shown that a Force-artifact like Kun's can be "disabled via the Force"? Use canon sources please. No bullshit.
2. Dividing attention? It's assumed they're attacking him from the front and he has the initial opportunity to shoot them with something Skywalker's never seen and Yoda's never personally dealt with, even if we assume he has knowledge of Kun walking into the fight.
3. Show me a good argument of why any of those Force abilities will work on a person who dominated every single Force user in his era.
Why? Because Yoda will use them and he's the "omfg greatest jedi evar according to Stover's book!" or he has more exposure than a comic book character which you clearly dispise for his "long ponytail"?
4. What Force Shield has canonically been shown to prevent these attacks?
5. Since when is Kun so stupid that he'd just sit there and spam blasts which weren't having any affect, assuming that's the case?
Here's one - stop making vague unsupported assertions, LS.
My stance: Exar Kun's shown dominating the premier Force users of his era - esteemed masters who fought ancient Sith,
battle masters, jedi knights, etc. He is undefeated and shows amazing Force ability.
Your stance: None of them stack up to Yoda or Anakin. Proof? **** you, thats my proof.
Please. Stop embarassing yourself with this senseless rhetoric. You've been hanging around the wrong crowd for too long, LS.
Good god, I'm not even going to touch on that assertion. I'll just let it slide by as a lack of sleep, or a small case of the stupids. I can't believe you're talking like this LS.
[Qupte]
1. Kyp was dominated. It's not the end-all of points, but it is a point. He lured Kyp first, dominated him second.[/Quote]
None of this involved anything using the force. Kun seduced Kyp to the Dark Side and Kyp gave in to the point where he utterly relied on Kun for help and guidance
2. His Force spirit was 4000 years old and still contained enough remnant power to do even that. It's a feat we can't claim Obi-Wan, Anakin or even Yoda's force ghosts accomplished that.
To contrast and compare, his spirit fought and was defeated by a small group of spacers beforehand according to Galaxies.
The context is important, LS. You claim Yoda > others by virtue of his standing within his own timeframe.
You believe it makes sense. Yoda most certainly is better than other Force users in his era, including Skywalker by a far margin. But then when I say Exar Kun > others of his timeframe and by extension he should be considerable enough to fight Yoda and Skywalker, especially with his amulet to offset the numerical balance, you say "Balls, that means nothing. Here's some random drivel about Bane and Revan to undermine your point". I don't quite follow, LS. Are you debating here or starting a pissing contest? [/B]
Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]That's the crux of your agrument though, isn't it? If I say Odan-Urr is a top level Force master on the levels of Yoda and Mace you immediately go "nuh uh!" Why? Because Odan-urr hasn't done the sheer amount of combat and force feats they have.
Why? Because of lack of exposure. Odan-urr was a supporting character in a comic book series which is limited media, which came out before the PT-era was solidified in movie form. Of course Mace and Yoda have great showings - they're central characters in the entire movies series, plus Clone Wars novels, cartoons, games, RPG books, etc.
You know how much new information has come out about Odan-Urr since the comics were released? None. That's how much.
Now you're complaining LFL has a bias for overpowering movie characters.
You know how much new information has come out about Yoda, Mace, and Anakin in the same timeframe? Shitloads. The entire basis of how you judge these characters has been effected by the massive exposure their getting and the verbal fellatio some authors choose to lap on there.
So really, if you want to argue to me "Odan-urr should have explicitly higher showings in his limited exposure or else he sucks worse than Yoda", you should concede at the very least that he has "high showings" among his own timeframe and media exposure. Among the comic books of his era, he was Yoda's equal as he was the eldest, wisest, and implicitly strongest in the Force, and Exar Kun dominated him. Thus endeth the argument.
This was refuted earlier in my agrument. Assuming you aren't speed-reading again and making senseless assumptions, you might have already addressed it.
Yoda's had brushes with Dark Siders. Nowhere has he engaged in Sith that I remember, especially since the Sith have been in hiding for over a thousand years. Of course, with recent canon changes happening left and right, this may be the case.
Yoda's offhand statement to Whie Malreux doesn't convince me that he's suddenly the world expert on fighting Sith, versus someone who lived in a time when Sith were around and apparently learned an ability to shut them off routinely from the Force after Sadow's forces were destroyed.
Yeah, the Sith were 'around' so much they showed up, fought for a day and was utterly destroyed and then exterminated. Stop making it seem as if they were a massive presence in the galaxy before the Hyperspace War.
With the 'recent canon changes,' we have nothing saying Odan fought anything more powerful than an acolyte and even that's questionable.
I'm not saying Yoda couldn't school most dark siders quite easily (He did a fine job with Sidious) but a large majority of Yoda's life was spent being a couch potato too and reading.
I don't see how you claim Odan-Urr is innately inferior to Yoda in Force mastery simply because he wasn't out killing Dark Siders in his younger years.
Oh wait, he was.
That happens to any Jedi who knows what they're doing. Luke does it, Mace does it, Revan does it, etc. "Opening yourself to the Force" requires knowledge, not necessarily just power alone, or else Anakin Skywalker would have destroyed Yoda long ago, right?
His is the first time it's mentioned. His description implies that he either made it, or took it and perfected it.
Either way is impressive. If you're assuming that any Dark Side users worth a damn were dead or gone by the time Odan-urr participated in the following clean up process, I'd love to see something definite. The only Sith Lords killed included Ludo Kressh and those loyal to him and Sadow.
lower level Sith Lords may have still survived, and since there's no way to truly differentiate their individual Force levels, there's no way to say random Sith is weaker than anyone other than Exar Kun, since Kun is the only exception to Odan-Urr's experience that we know.
Whoa, way to show hatred for a comic book character, LS. A bit cranky lately, aren't you? Maybe you're arguing this way because you're upset or sick. Normally you don't sound like this much of a hateful blowhard.
Yoda not using the ability nor mentioning it opens up a lot of questions. Did he know of it? Could he do it? If not, why not? Why would he not use it when appropriate? Odan-Urr used it to defend himself when he knew he was in the presence of a dark lord.
He keenly sensed Exar Kun's power and malice before Kun was fully in the room and immediately decided to use that ability to render the Force from Kun.
That's quite telling. In a situation where evil is loose in the galaxy, Odan-urr, your "idiot mongrel" attempts to remove their one claim to power. A smart thing to do.
Yoda, who himself could have stopped the war, saved millions, and changed the fate of the galaxy by simply doing the same thing to Dooku and Sidious, did not even bring the idea up.
So seriously - how is Odan-urr an idiot for doing the smartest, quickest thing to disable a Dark Sider while Yoda never even considers it despite the fact that it cost the lives of millions in a war and the lives of the entire Jedi Order? Which is a more moral choice, do you think?
Outside of the fact that the third Great Schism isn't even included in TOTJ works (Nice attention to detail there),
Odan-urr's failure at something which he was adept at and something which worked easily on Ulic speaks measures for Kun, and less so for Odan-urr.
Ultimately, I'm not out to prove Odan-Urr directly equals Yoda or that he's even better (Which is a ridiculous stance that you're seizing on here) but that he's a top level Force master and his sheer knowledge and practice of the Force alone implies that Exar Kun, who is much better, is amazing enough to kill Skywalker and with those amulet blasts potentially kill Yoda too. [/B]
Keyword on my part is vastly, but either way I'm not making the assertion that "Odan is more powerful" than Yoda. I'll say this againRead my posts slower!
You've consistently shown a lack of reading comprehension and attacked points I haven't even made.
Also, of course Yoda's power is stacked a lot against other Jedi in his own time -- he has tons of exposure. It's common sense. You'll likely never see Odan-Urr in EU again.
So you're saying I have to stack Exar Kun linearly alongside Yoda in Force powers because... this will somehow resolve the issue of the Sith amulets
? Actually, my initial point was against Skywalker, who is a flea in this fight.
Some of Kun's showings indicate his shrugging off of Odan-Urr's "difficult" ability which he was "adept" at and his subsequent Force-choking of Odan which killed the 1000 year old Jedi Master.
If you needed to substantiate Exar Kun's Force showings without picking a particular example against inferiors (Such as the Senate, or Sylvar, for example) this is perhaps his best example.
If it doesn't satisfy you, I suggest a cold shower and a cigarette, because that's all we have to work with.
If this statement wasn't followed by your signature, I would have assumed some random insignificant KMC personality posted it. Really, you're slipping. Slowly reread everything I've posted here and get back to me when you make sense, okay? [/B]
How about you read what I posted, stop inflating anyone who's 'old' to ridiculous levels and then get back to me? Or better yet, actually go by what the evidence gives us.
Originally posted by Faunus
Considering Nomi also picked up a lightsaber for the first time and wielded it "like a master," that's a bad example. She's a prodigy, not the standard by which others should be judged. Vergere is old and has demonstrated a broad range of knowledge with the Force, having been a Jedi Knight, Sith apprentice, and observer of the Vong. The technique Tholme used cannot actually be the same unless someone else rekindled his connection for him. How can someone with no connection to the Force simply give himself the ability to touch it again?
I'm not familiar with Kyle's use of it, so I'm hoping you can fill me in on that a little.
And then stalled for several seconds because neither could overpower the other.Obi-Wan "took more damage"? Don't make things up.
An old, likely radiation-damaged ceiling that he unintentionally brought down when he roared. It was an accident.
Which he means he probably won't tire out, not that he can go Force-pounding people into oblivion.
"Adding his power"? You understand that this is the raging Sith Lord Darth Vader, right? Cohesiveness probably isn't his thing.
Anakin is not a heavyweight when it comes to effective use of the Force. His power makes him a dangerous swordsman and certainly a force to be reckoned with, but even Obi-Wan - despite having comparatively negligible potential - was able to completely counter his Force-push when Skywalker was at his pre-suit peak.
How?
What, and when?
No they don't. He fights super battledroids and casually disarms Asajj Ventress. Hardly Exar Kun-level enemies.