Amateur logic is fun!!!!
P1- The Star Forge is hella powerful!
P2- REvan controlled the Star Forge!
Cl- Revan is hella powerful!]
zOMG! It's that easy, kids!
P1- Revan read some stuff on Sith in like three years.
P2- These Sith musta been pussies. Revan could take them.
Cl- Revan is pimp auf dem Welt!
P1- I like Revan
P2- I dislike the idea of Ragnos
Cl- Revan must somehow, someway be superior.
P1 - Revan killed someone
P2 - Council members were mentioned in KotOR
Cl - Revan MUST have killed those council members
P1 - I'm a poor senseless kid that doesn't know anything about Ragnos
P2 - I play KotOR all day
Cl - Revan > Ragnos
Yeah, Revan had the Republic at its knees by killing all of 0 council members.
I mean, Jango Fett has a higher kill count! He must be closer to taking over the galaxy!
Don't get me started on the Nexu, dude...
More fun with logic!
P1- Revan was a leader of armies.
P2- Those armies ****ed people up.
Cl- Revan must somehow be better than every person killed and its just as good as if he sabered them in the back since how he won is irrelevant (See subclause, premise 4a)
P1- I can't win this argument.
P2- The other guys are pwning my ass silly.
Cl- Circular logic, round four.
There are no barbers shown in movie.
Somehow, everyone still has semi-decent haircuts.
In SW< hair must grow like the seventies.
Or better yet...
Yoda doesn't have a father by name or appearance in the movies that we know of.
Thus, Yoda has no male lineage.
If Yoda has no male lineage, then he cannot possess the needed chromosones to exist.
If Yoda has chromosones as we know it, all the above applies.
If it doesn't, then Yoda must exist.
Except that Yoda has no named or visible mother.
Advanced creatures all have at least one parent.
Yoda has none.
Thus, Yoda does not exist.
If Yoda does not exist, then no one teaches the younglings.
If no one teaches the younglings, they must not be taught.
If the younglings are ignorant of the Force, then they must not learn how to fight using it.
A youngling uses the Force to fight in ROTS.
If this were to still occur with Yoda not existing, then this kid would not be a youngling since younglings are ignorant.
Ignorance is a prerequisite for being a youngling.
Younglings are without sufficient knowledge of fighting or the Force.
Everyone in the Sw universe is ignorant of something.
Thus, Revan is a youngling with no Force powers.
Actually Janus although I agree that Ragnos will win, your points here are based on just as much assumptions as that of those that say Revan will win. I find it incedibly funny that everybody uses assumptions mostly based on logic to prove their points and both critize the other for doing it. Yeah there are assumptions about Revan his power there is no doubt about that, but thats because we don't know he did some things because its a game. Everything about Ragnos is an assumption but using a little bit of logical thinking and you could easily come to the right conclusion.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
First off, learn to prove up.
Will do
Name how Malak, Traya, and Sidious are exceptions to this rule. Or better yet, let me do all the thinking for you! Let's see... You have no evidence to suggest that Malak ever had to fight for his position. Since he killed REvan (even cowardly) he was doubtless the next Sith lord because he had usurped the throne and obviously no one killed him in the next year. Traya was defeated by two Sith at once (Of which I believe Nihilus' special talents had a factor in it) and later on she dominated Sion like he was her godgiven *****. As for Sidious, he lived in a time of two Sith, and he always made sure to keep the other Sith lesser than himself, or at least stay in a position of safety. So basically, your point is moot.
Lets see, Malak defeated Kavar right? On his own otherwise it would not have been an achievement worth mentioning. So Kavar lost, Kavar was also said to be the most powerful of the Jedi Masters or at least the best fighter. Seeing as the entire army of Revan and Malak existed out of Jedi you can easily assume they were weaker then Kavar even the councillors that joined Revan his army, you can only assume that they would be to scared to move against Malak, who since then probably only became stronger. Same thing goes for Ragnos really now doesn't it. He beats the most powerful therefor he must be the most powerful, others are to scared to move against that and rightfully so.
Irrelevant to the point Revan has won? On the contrary, how he won has EVERYTHING to do with his ability. If he killed Yusanis with eighty Sith troopers by his side, I would say that's a piss poor win and deserves to be stricken from the record. But obviously, if Ragnos can rule a Sith empire- as you say- being a mere manipulator, it should not matter how he did it, simply that he did do it. And in doing that he is greater than any Sith before or since. So yeah... point is moot.
Ask yourself this, would Canderous consider it honorable if Revan used a billion troops to kill Mandalore, would the Echani talk about Yussanis if his dead was weak? Would people even say how great Revan was by killing the last if he let troops do it? No, of course not. And from all we know about Revan its pretty clear that he always wants to test himself. Always wants to improve, you really can not argue that. So why would he walk away from a great challenge? There is no logic behind it.
Name one ****ing quote from KOTOR II that says ANYTHING about Revan's fighting style that covers all forms. Frobo, I have played the game nine times already to completion. I would HOPE I would know!
There is nothing in Kotor I or Kotor II that claims anything like that, however it is you yourself who has once argued that Revan had his own style, I still agree with that. That style however far from covers all style's thats just freaking impossible.
It's not a holocron, it's actually a sith tablet that was all the crazy old sith could (Or would, the smart devil) translate and put into written form from the holocron which he never devulged. It remains lost to time. You have no proof otherwise, I'm sure.
You are right here there is no proof otherwise..
He went to Malachor. So did Nihilus, Sion, Kreia, and Bao Dur's sensor ball. Are they all better than Ragnos too? No, they arent. So please, try again. You don't know a damn thing about what was or wasn't at Malachor. Thus, you can't prove Revan's measure of power from this fact by itself as it stands, which is on bullshit.
I never really understood the point of Malachor either, but it corrupts as hell apparently, but the power there at the start of Kotor II is amazing, I mean its that power that made Nihilus and Sion, what that means about Revan? I don't know. Still he resisted the Dark Side of a Dark planet, hardly means anything really.
Multiple artifacts? As so far as we know, the only reference to Revan -actually- (One hundred per cent outside of gameplay possibility terms) getting anything is Ajunta Pall's blade. If he still has that. If it didn't get him killed, since we don't know if he's alive or dead.
Well you have his robes, but still... And we don't know if he's alive or dead? Janus come on now thats just weak, we know damn well he is alive. You know as well as I do that Revan was supposed to be in the ending of Kotor II meaning he was still alive at that time. Now you could say that doesn't count because he wasn't there, thats fine but then think of this. The cave, you confront Revan at the very end the last thing the Exile will do of importance or perhaps the last thing he will do. Everything else in that cave already happened, the confrontation with Revan will happen as well, its only logical that it will happen.
As far as the ending goes, yes it does matter. A darkside Revan would be infiniately more powerful and less scrupulous than a lightside Revan, and he would abide by different ethics and rules in combat, or anywhere else. They are essentially two different people! This is like saying Anakin could have beat Assajj, Dooku, or Luke could have beaten Vader WITHOUT calling on the darkside, since it is "moot" in your educated presumptuous opinion!
For somebody who has played Kotor II nine times I would not have expected this, remember that thing that Kreia says about Revan always being himself, light or dark were just tools for him to reach what he wanted. It really doesn't matter what side Revan is going to be, as long as he stays himself. If he does that his attacks will have the furry and passion in it that they need as well as the control, really I hardly think it matters. Because Revan does not let himself be controlled by either one of the sides, he uses both.
Him being alive IS relevant. Since we don't know the cap of Revan's power (Or even how much he has as of the end of KOTOR I) if he is dead and no one in KOTOR II knows it, he may never have become strong enough to defeat anyone better than Malak.
Maybe not, but for all we know Malak could have been as powerful as Exar Kun, based on nothing but its an assumption just like what you said, a very stupid assumption but I have seen plenty of those in this thread.
Where does it say specifically Malak spent his whole life with Revan? Oh wait... that's bullshit.
Kotor I childhood friends, Its said by several people. Including Zak or something who taught Revan so he could know.
Again, about the Star Forge. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ITS RESTRICTIONS! For all you know, the simpleton Ratakan on the planet could control it. Never anywhere save for Bastila's words was it said that no one but Revan and Malak was able to control the Star Forge. And yet in the load screens for KOTOR I, it mentions that Malak snagged the Star Forge to solidify his rule. And seeing as he was by Revan's side as the thing was discovered, it would make sense only he and Revan could make use of it. Seeing as Bastila never tried to control the Star Forge, I won't take her word as the expert's. And stop being baseless with your assumptions that you have to be the strongest to run the Star Forge. It's ridiculous.
That wouldn't explain how the Rakatan used it for many years even after the dead of their first leaders... So what the hell kind of logic is this, the Star Forge was not sabotaged as you claimed in another post, the only one smart enough to do something like that was Revan, and he would have no reason to make the Star Forge so that only he and Malak could use it, saying Malak could never use it was a golden way to make sure he reigned longer.
Back to the point about a "lifetime of knowledge". Well, I have a lifetime of knowledge. So does everyone else able to read this and then some. What's your point? What kind of knowledge? Specifically? Where? Huh? No answer? Oh yeah... sysph.
Seeing Revan is legendaric in his time because of his knowledge you can only assume he's smart, denying this is like denying what Ragnos did is impressive. Simple logic again.
So there was your rebuttal, Frobo... Let's see...accoring to the pwn-o-meter... you are****ING PWN3D! [/B]
Far from...
All I see happening here is fighting assumptions with assumptions, the funny thing is however is that now the assumptions on Revan are being attacked when most of them have far more credibility then those of Ragnos. Still those few things that we know about Ragnos makes him damn powerful more powerful then Revan. But don't try attacking those assumptions on Revan, as long as i'm around i'll defend them to the end because half of them are made by me and I wouldn't have made them if they didn't make a shit load of sense.
this thread should be burn but there's a few things i felt i should say.
yes some revan fan boys say that we don't know much about ragnos. well there ISN'T MUCH to KNOW. he ruled the sith empire with an iron fist, he was feared, obeyed, hated and respected. he was the strongest plain and simple, if sadow, kressh or any others thought that there was a possibility that they could over throw ragnos - wouldn't they take it? among the sith only the strongest can rule, so the other great sith lords must have felt inferior to him.
as for the other sith lords that wanted to go and assault the republic, he made them focus their attention on him. all this stuff is out there in books and other sites, if you didn't know it, you obviously don't know all there is to know about the star wars universe.
one can only imagine what the attention of many sith lord would give a great sense of being uncomfortable to say the least but he welcomed it and laughed at it. obviously no one challenged him to a one on one fight but perhaps there were assassination attempts?
what can be more said?
since we're on that note, what do we really know about revan? maybe a bit more than ragnos? but not a whole lot, only roughly where he came from and his twenties and perhaps early thirties. that he controlled the star forge, defeated the mandalorians, defeated the jedi, etc.
kreia killed 3 master jedi which were considered elite, and all at once. can she be called the greatest sith or jedi?
no we don't know a great deal about ragnos as compared to someone like yoda or exar kun, but there's also a great deal to know about revan which we still don't know about. did he die in the outter rim? or did he survive and accomplish what he was planning to do?
Originally posted by Illustrious
There's a difference between gameplay QUOTES, CUTSCENES, and other such things that are universal for all experiences as compared to gameplay experience (i.e. Malak was so easy, I killed him in 2 seconds, ergo he must suck).There are 3 facts here:
1) Simus was mentioned explicitly as the most powerful of his era.
2) The era was considered/mentioned explicitly as the height of the Sith Empire
3) It was mentioned specifically that Ragnos killed Simus, and became Dark Lord.Those are 3 facts, it's not hard to extrapolate that Ragnos > Simus > people of his era, k?
The facts are he ruled for over a hundred years, he was never bested and died a natural death. We know that the Sith Empire IDEOLOGY is that the strongest shall rule, therein you get people like Kun and Ulic, or Sadow and Kressh fighting each other.
We can conclude Ragnos didn't get killed because it was mentioned he died a NATURAL DEATH (woah, big assumption, right?). It is a fact that Ancient Sith Empire existed by the strongest shall rule. Therefore, it is an easy deduction that Ragnos was the most powerful of his time, greater than two individuals that were extremely powerful (Sadow and Kressh). There's no lies about that one. No "speculation", basic factual deduction.
As for YOUR and EMPEROR'S speculation, here we go:
This is an absolutely steaming pile of Sith.
Yes, because clearly there is no one in the history of Starwars that could've had greater precog, right? And you say you aren't a fanboy.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Other than that, you're just pulling straws out of a hat.
Again, does this mean he's greater than Ragnos? No. It doesn't show jack other than he's strong relative to his time. You're assuming that because he learned from the best masters and Tulak's holocron that he can beat Ragnos? And you say that Ragnos supporters are assuming.
You apparently don't know what a syllogism is.
Here, I'll simplify it for your simpleton ass:
1) The Sith Empire was built on the ideology that the strongest shall rule, so the strongest did rule.
2) Ragnos ruled for over a century and died a natural death.It's a NATURAL deduction to say Ragnos is the most powerful. It's speculatory crap to say "Ragnos may not be powerful, he may just be a good manipulator."
What proof do you have that Ragnos wasn't powerful, but that he was simply a good manipulator? Please, get your Dectective Dumbass "facts" out of the thread.
And why didn't you answer what Janus asked you? You're DUCKING the f*cking facts.
Well now since you decided to show what an idiotic ass you are I guess I must continue posting then.
First off the strongest has not always ruled the sith empire and I've named multiple exceptions to that fact, but here we go again
plaguesis>sidious yet sidious took control
Revan>malak yet malak took control
That's just a couple so it's obvious that it's not always the strongest who rules but it may sometimes be the smartest or most deceitful. So his ruling or simus ruling means nothing.
I have no proof that Ragnos was just a good manipulator all I have JUST LIKE YOU is speculation speculation that is easily undermined at that.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Did I ? Can't remember this happening.Who he killed ? Non force users all the way, pathetic acting Sith and Jedi and Malak who has his own power defined by Revan.
So now...to finaly end that stupid stuff.
Kreia herself admited that the Ancient Sith would make people in KotoR times (including herself) look like children.Yet...[b]everything
Revan found in terms of knowledge comes from the ancient Sith lords - the same people you try to make look weak here. So either you want to tell me that the ancient Sith lords were weak and thereby you have to tell me that Revan is weak too because using their knowledge or you tell me that Revan is great because of his knowledge but in this case you have to admit the ancient sith lords were great because it's their knowledge that Revan used.However you want to do it. You lose. And don't even try to tell me that Revan after studying the very same knowledge the ancient Sith Lords had would be more used to it than people who not only invented and grow up with that stuff but studied, practiced and used that stuff for 100+ years !
That would be equal to saying a fast-learning Padawan would have more knowledge about the force than Yoda himself. [/B]
Kreia said that they were but children compared to TULAK not the ancient sith and that was reffering to swordsmanship so that's null.
Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Well now since you decided to show what an idiotic ass you are I guess I must continue posting then.First off the strongest has not always ruled the sith empire and I've named multiple exceptions to that fact, but here we go again
plaguesis>sidious yet sidious took control
Revan>malak yet malak took controlThat's just a couple so it's obvious that it's not always the strongest who rules but it may sometimes be the smartest or most deceitful. So his ruling or simus ruling means nothing.
I have no proof that Ragnos was just a good manipulator all I have JUST LIKE YOU is speculation speculation that is easily undermined at that.
Neither of them lived in the REAL Sith Empire. Sidious was around in Darth Bane's Empire. Malal ;ived in REvan's Empire. Back on the TRUE Sith Empire, the strongest ruled. Get over it.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
First off, learn to prove up.- Name how Malak, Traya, and Sidious are exceptions to this rule. Or better yet, let me do all the thinking for you! Let's see... You have no evidence to suggest that Malak ever had to fight for his position. Since he killed REvan (even cowardly) he was doubtless the next Sith lord because he had usurped the throne and obviously no one killed him in the next year. Traya was defeated by two Sith at once (Of which I believe Nihilus' special talents had a factor in it) and later on she dominated Sion like he was her godgiven *****. As for Sidious, he lived in a time of two Sith, and he always made sure to keep the other Sith lesser than himself, or at least stay in a position of safety. So basically, your point is moot.
- Irrelevant to the point Revan has won? On the contrary, how he won has EVERYTHING to do with his ability. If he killed Yusanis with eighty Sith troopers by his side, I would say that's a piss poor win and deserves to be stricken from the record. But obviously, if Ragnos can rule a Sith empire- as you say- being a mere manipulator, it should not matter how he did it, simply that he did do it. And in doing that he is greater than any Sith before or since. So yeah... point is moot.
- Name one ****ing quote from KOTOR II that says ANYTHING about Revan's fighting style that covers all forms. Frobo, I have played the game nine times already to completion. I would HOPE I would know!
- It's not a holocron, it's actually a sith tablet that was all the crazy old sith could (Or would, the smart devil) translate and put into written form from the holocron which he never devulged. It remains lost to time. You have no proof otherwise, I'm sure.
- He went to Malachor. So did Nihilus, Sion, Kreia, and Bao Dur's sensor ball. Are they all better than Ragnos too? No, they arent. So please, try again. You don't know a damn thing about what was or wasn't at Malachor. Thus, you can't prove Revan's measure of power from this fact by itself as it stands, which is on bullshit.
- Multiple artifacts? As so far as we know, the only reference to Revan -actually- (One hundred per cent outside of gameplay possibility terms) getting anything is Ajunta Pall's blade. If he still has that. If it didn't get him killed, since we don't know if he's alive or dead.
- As far as the ending goes, yes it does matter. A darkside Revan would be infiniately more powerful and less scrupulous than a lightside Revan, and he would abide by different ethics and rules in combat, or anywhere else. They are essentially two different people! This is like saying Anakin could have beat Assajj, Dooku, or Luke could have beaten Vader WITHOUT calling on the darkside, since it is "moot" in your educated presumptuous opinion!
- Him being alive IS relevant. Since we don't know the cap of Revan's power (Or even how much he has as of the end of KOTOR I) if he is dead and no one in KOTOR II knows it, he may never have become strong enough to defeat anyone better than Malak.
- Where does it say specifically Malak spent his whole life with Revan? Oh wait... that's bullshit.
- Again, about the Star Forge. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ITS RESTRICTIONS! For all you know, the simpleton Ratakan on the planet could control it. Never anywhere save for Bastila's words was it said that no one but Revan and Malak was able to control the Star Forge. And yet in the load screens for KOTOR I, it mentions that Malak snagged the Star Forge to solidify his rule. And seeing as he was by Revan's side as the thing was discovered, it would make sense only he and Revan could make use of it. Seeing as Bastila never tried to control the Star Forge, I won't take her word as the expert's. And stop being baseless with your assumptions that you have to be the strongest to run the Star Forge. It's ridiculous.
- Back to the point about a "lifetime of knowledge". Well, I have a lifetime of knowledge. So does everyone else able to read this and then some. What's your point? What kind of knowledge? Specifically? Where? Huh? No answer? Oh yeah... sysph.
So there was your rebuttal, Frobo... Let's see...accoring to the pwn-o-meter... you are
****ING PWN3D!
Malak was weaker then revan but betrayed him for the throne
Sidious was weaker then plaguesis but did the same
Traya was weaker then nhilus (including his eating ability) yet ruled the three of them.
Revan is repeatedly cited as a powerful warrior as a known fact he beat two tentarak at once when a single one pwns a jedi master so lets see here logic time
Revan>tenterak>jedi master
or
Revan pwns kreia pwns three most powerful masters at once.
You obviously don't know what you're talking about, one of the sidequests is to help lashowe recover a holocron from a tuk'ata mother that holocron is tulaks.
Let's see logic time again Revan learned everything he could from all his sources, malachor=one of his sources.
The force is equally powerful on both sides he would have the same amount of power just in a different form if he was lightside or darkside.
Yeah multiple artifacts:
Tulaks holocron
Tulaks headband
Ragnos's gauntlets
Palls sword
sadows sword
before that there are multiple quotes saying that revan had sith search for and bring many artifacts to him.
Him being alive..truth is I don't really care even if he did die fine so there's someone more powerful then him, a good judge of his power is think kreia then a bit more so on the grounds that he has as much if not more potential then she does and the same if not more knowledge.
Malak and revan were best friends that were together since before the mandalorian wars and being the same age they were probably trained together as well.
You have to be powerful enough to harness a star end of story as far as the star forge is concerned,
He has a lifetime of training from powerful masters learning from the entire jedi archive (kreia says so) and then from malachor and korriban both are planets full of darkside knowledge and according to kreia he learned everything he could and she also said his potential for knowledge was nearly unlimited.
And janus next time you use an ownage picture make sure it's not one you've stolen from the exact person your using it on lol.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Neither of them lived in the REAL Sith Empire. Sidious was around in Darth Bane's Empire. Malal ;ived in REvan's Empire. Back on the TRUE Sith Empire, the strongest ruled. Get over it.
They followed the exact same rules the only difference is that none of them had any sith blood in them get over it.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Amateur logic is fun!!!!P1- The Star Forge is hella powerful!
P2- REvan controlled the Star Forge!
Cl- Revan is hella powerful!]zOMG! It's that easy, kids!
P1- Revan read some stuff on Sith in like three years.
P2- These Sith musta been pussies. Revan could take them.
Cl- Revan is pimp auf dem Welt!P1- I like Revan
P2- I dislike the idea of Ragnos
Cl- Revan must somehow, someway be superior.
Good for u retard you took things I never said or twisted things I did say to suit you needs as with the rest of these stupid amateur logic posts noobtards.