ragnos vs. reven

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
you put a bunch of bullcrap in there.

"He beat everyone he fought with ease" my fat ass. That is completly not true.

"he had enough force power to instakill the three most powerful jedi masters of his time with one raise of his hand. (kreia did it and Revan>kreia in every way)"

that is a load of SH!T. He is not better than Kreia in everyway. If they were wine, Kreia would be better. Are you really that desperate.

The first part is completely true in kotor who did he ever lose to...nobody. furing the mandalorian wars and jedi civil war who did he lose to...nobody. if your as good as I am at kotor then it really is with ease.

He is so better then kreia in every way it's even said during kotor 2 and it can be figured out fairly easily.

Revan=looking in to the heart of the force
kreia=average sith lord

Revan according to kotor learned everything he could from his sources
kreia had less sources and didn't learn as much.

Revan had more combat experience and knowledge with a lightsaber.

So revan has more knwoledge, experience and natural ability..Revan pwns her.

as for the whole sadow simus thing we have nothing saying simus was greater except sadow not fighting him which once again doesn't say anything except MAYBE sadow was afraid of him and we have no proof supporting that or supporting the idea that fear was justified, I'm not saying either are untrue but I'm saying until we have proof of either they shouldn't be used as facts.

I really don't think Sadow was around a century before he took on the Republic myself. Ragnos died after that time yet Sadow's still really young?

All this logic is so entertaining. We know almost nothing about this guy so he must be the most powerful ever. Kreia said Tulak was the best duelist in a time of great duelists. We've never heard anything anywhere else on Tulak but he's got to be way more powerful than anyone including Revan even though Kreia says Revan was power, staring at him was like staring into the heart of the Force. down with all those people we know enough about to post more than two paragraphs! Booh! Even though we have no way of coming close to gauging any of thier power, we can pretend everyone feared them, everyone else decided to fight him, he blew up stars, no one could stop him and much more. It's not like we can assume the worst about him (with much more evidence) like we can't assume he fought everyone, he manipulated his enemies into fighting each other, and he had the army of sith lords behind him so naturally no one would try and challenge him. Ragnos PWNS ALL!!!

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
b) No, that's more useless garbage Ragnos lovers desperately make up to try and keep Ragnos as the "strongest". Ragnos' spirit merely said to choose their future actions wildy. Later the other sith lords named Sadow the dark lord. Read the new essential guide to characters and/or the star wars timeline, and I would appreciate you not making up more of this stuff, I'm getting tired of smacking it all down.

Keep Ragnos the greatest ? What for ?
We know that he was greater then Sadow and Kressh since they never challenged him (and don't start that "he manipulated them" stuff again) and all other Sith Lords alive at that time.

Still:
- Sadow didn't manipulate the others really. He tricked them into believe that the Republic had attacked the Sith Empire and that this action was reason enough to launch war against the republic
- that was totally against Kressh view so all people (logically) turned away from Kressh and supported Sadow
- Sadow didn't use battle meditation he created and illusion which made his fleet look bigger than it was.
- and he failed to conquer the Republic because the commander of his fleet (Gav Daragon) attacked him (betrayal)
- with his decimated forces he was still powerful enough to destroy Ludo Kressh who had taken control over the Sith Empire again.

And please the fact remains that Kressh as well as Sadow would have killed Ragnos if they were able to do so.

Really? How is fact that Simus was the greatest? If you can prove it, I'll believe it. I could say Revan is the most powerful Sith lord of all time and at the very least, Wikipedia agrees with me. But Simus? That's just what you guys hope.

Simus was the greatest because he was the Dark Lord before Ragnos killed him. Case closed.

Ah, point taken. That was pretty dumb of me. Even still, I would also like to know where you got this info on 'hundreds of planets'.

Again logic. Take a look at the maps in KotoR 2 you have Malachor and Korriban that are (according to Kreia) at the outer boarder of the Sith Empire. Yet the Sith empire could still be up to 50 % of the Republics space (and worlds) if there are thousands (more likely millions) of planet within the Republic (and most of the outer rim didn't belong to the republic same counts for the Hutt space - Nar Shadda and so on)

So Ulic was named apprentice and didn't question it. You think it was out of fear of Ragnos? Yeah right. Working together with Kun benefited them both. And again, Ragnos did NOT declare Sadow a sith lord.

If you are in a duel with somebody and there is actually no proof that he is stonger than you and you are a hothead - would you listen to a spirit telling you that you are the apprentice while the person that seem to be very equal to you will be the Dark Lord ?

He was still wrong. Even Palpatine is nearly always right, for instance: "I sense Lord Vader is in danger." and so many others.

Err...He sensed that Lord Vader was in danger and didn't predict it. Sidious predictions more go like: "I will have another apprentice more powerful" (now compare mechanical Vader to Dooku). Or: "Your friends will be destroyed by the imperial fleet and this space station." or: "The young Skywalker will join us or die". Hmm...not that accurate. 😉

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Keep Ragnos the greatest ? What for ?
We know that he was greater then Sadow and Kressh since they never challenged him (and don't start that "he manipulated them" stuff again) and all other Sith Lords alive at that time.

Still:
- Sadow didn't manipulate the others really. He tricked them into believe that the Republic had attacked the Sith Empire and that this action was reason enough to launch war against the republic
- that was totally against Kressh view so all people (logically) turned away from Kressh and supported Sadow
- Sadow didn't use battle meditation he created and illusion which made his fleet look bigger than it was.
- and he failed to conquer the Republic because the commander of his fleet (Gav Daragon) attacked him (betrayal)
- with his decimated forces he was still powerful enough to destroy Ludo Kressh who had taken control over the Sith Empire again.

And please the fact remains that Kressh as well as Sadow would have killed Ragnos if they were able to do so.

Simus was the greatest because he was the Dark Lord before Ragnos killed him. Case closed.

Again logic. Take a look at the maps in KotoR 2 you have Malachor and Korriban that are (according to Kreia) at the outer boarder of the Sith Empire. Yet the Sith empire could still be up to 50 % of the Republics space (and worlds) if there are thousands (more likely millions) of planet within the Republic (and most of the outer rim didn't belong to the republic same counts for the Hutt space - Nar Shadda and so on)

If you are in a duel with somebody and there is actually no proof that he is stonger than you and you are a hothead - would you listen to a spirit telling you that you are the apprentice while the person that seem to be very equal to you will be the Dark Lord ?

Err...He sensed that Lord Vader was in danger and didn't predict it. Sidious predictions more go like: "I will have another apprentice more powerful" (now compare mechanical Vader to Dooku). Or: "Your friends will be destroyed by the imperial fleet and this space station." or: "The young Skywalker will join us or die". Hmm...not that accurate. 😉

Challenging Ragnos is like challenging the entire sith empire with him. Not the brightest idea when they can wait a year or whatever for him to die and play off the confusion.

Oh, my bad, Sadow tricked them instead of manipulating them. That shows a lot for those Sith and Ragnos couldn't have possibly tricked them. 😉

I said a form of battle meditation, it helped his side out, it's not as good really but it still helped.

Sadow still didn't defeat Kressh in a fair fight. (or so I think.) And Sadow was clearly able to destroy Ragnos, but then he would destroy all the other Sith with him and Sadow dreamed of destroying the Republic so he needed an army. It's simple, Sadow planned ahead.

Uh, Simus and Ragnos fought to see who would BECOME the dark lord. I'm not 100% sure, but I am pretty positive Simus wasn't already the dark lord. Even if he was, how does that compare to Sadow who existed after Simus did?

Yes, yes, the sith empire could be all that but we don't know it and there's nothing to indicate it is. Obviously it had some planets but I doubt hundreds.

Why does Vader not try to kill Sidious after he lied to him? I sure don't know. Hotheads make dumb-ass choices but I'm guessing Vader didn't want to risk dying and simply wanted to join forces, same with Ulic.

Well, yeah that wasn't the best point. 🙄 But in ROTJ he does foresee a lot of things. And ROTS is about the only one where he could really foresee something. 😉

Please just because he wasn't challenged doesn't mean he would of one if he was, because they never took him on we don't know what would happen I'm not saying he would of lost merely we shouldn't assume the contrary either, we have no clue if sadow could have beat him or not so lets not make assumptions, in KOTOR master uthar calls sadow the strongest on korriban, we simply don't know if he really was the best.

As for simus being the greatest it's more then possible in fact it happens all the time that people are made to work for the inferiors just because they were his underlings doesn't make them weaker Generals can still be in charge of solidiers who are inferior to them in combat that's life. Also I'm wondering if the strongest always rules then how is it that a padawan can be stronger then his master and take the rule from him if the strongest is always the person in charge?

Wow, you guys truly are Stone Deaf.

Go back and read the couple of pages that were written, if you fail to possess the common sense and logic to connect the dots, don't bother arguing. It's simple, build up your achievements instead of trying to tear the other side, it doesn't work. Nothing Revan did is as impressive as ruling for the Sith Empire for a century. If you want to list a couple, go ahead and try, but you're simply bathing in fanboy sauce.

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
The first part is completely true in kotor who did he ever lose to...nobody. furing the mandalorian wars and jedi civil war who did he lose to...nobody. if your as good as I am at kotor then it really is with ease.

He is so better then kreia in every way it's even said during kotor 2 and it can be figured out fairly easily.

Revan=looking in to the heart of the force
kreia=average sith lord

Revan according to kotor learned everything he could from his sources
kreia had less sources and didn't learn as much.

Revan had more combat experience and knowledge with a lightsaber.

So revan has more knwoledge, experience and natural ability..Revan pwns her.

What part of dont go by gameplay do you not understand. Just because it was easy for you doesn;t mean it was canonly easy. I personaly had know difficulty with KOTOR. I did over half of the sidequest and still finished it in nine hours.

Kreia=average Sith Lord? WTF! I don't know where you got that load of BS, its a real big one though.

Kreia spent more time in Malacor V than Revan. Revan spent at most a year or so there. She was there for probably close to five years. She knows would have more time to learn things from it. Kreia also has significant amounts of knowledge about the Ancient Sith on Korriban. Did you see all of those holocrons that Atris had? Kreia most likly had as many because she was once Darth Traya. The thought that Revan has more knowledge is not credible.

Are you getting BS at a discount or something, because you have a lot of it. Sure Revan fought in the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil War, but Kreia probably did too.

Lets name what they might have gained experince from.

Revan

-Mandalorian War
-Jedi Civil War
-Search for the Star Forge
-(Maybe) Fighting the TSE
-Whatever Kreia thought him
-Sparring with people in the group to destroy the SF
-Sparring with Kreia

Kreia

-(Probably) Mandalorian Wars
-(Probably) Jedi Civil War
-Whatever she learned from her Master
-Sparring and real fighting Sion
-Sparring with Revan
-All of KOTOR 2
-(Probably) Fighting off Sith Assassins
- The Great Sith War

That last one is a big one. She fought through and survived the Great Sith War. Being as powerful as she was, she probably spent a lot of time on the front lines. This War was bigger than the Jedi Civil War. She has more experince, get over it.

so i'm guessin this is not such a bad thread after all lol gosh y don't u just admit that ragnos would waste revan. i didn't at first but now after reading a lot every single source i found says ragnos is THE MOST powerful sith NOT ONE of the most THE most so without question ragnos wins

Holy mother ****er!!! Why the hell is this thread still going OMG! Dude, Ragnos would waste Revan! Emperor Revan and Frobo listen to words of a fellow Revan fanatic...Ragnos takes this with ease!!!

ya when the person who started it says it needs to end it needs to end

Glad that's over.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Challenging Ragnos is like challenging the entire sith empire with him. Not the brightest idea when they can wait a year or whatever for him to die and play off the confusion.

No Emperor Revan.
This is the point where you and Frobo totally not get it.
Ragnos is not like Emperor Palpatine later. He can't command people arround as he likes. It basically works like that: Each of the Sith Lords (from KotoR 2 we can tell that there were 20 Lords visting Ragnos funeral) had their own army of Sith Warriors, Assasins - stuff like that under their command. You can see that while Sadow is Dark Lord the troops of Kressh were still under the command of Kressh not under the command of Sadow.

The point is that back in this times you have to take out the Dark Lord by challenging him in a duel. It doesn't matter what you do in the rangs under that. You can assasinate another Sith Lord to become Sith Lord yourself but to become Dark Lord you have to proof yourself more powerful than the actual Dark Lord.

So every single Sith Lord who would have tried to beat Ragnos and defeat him would have become the next Dark Lord without having the entire Sith Empire going up against him. Because it's the rule of the Sith to kill the Dark Lord when you can do so. Otherwise every new Dark Lord would have to destroy the supporters of the former Dark Lord what is simply stupid. Who is the Dark Lord is not a question of popularity.

The situation after Ragnos dead is very unique since the title was passed on from one Dark Lord to the next by having the new Dark Lord kill the old one. Ragnos died a natural way an that's why there was confusion who will be the next after it. Actually it would have been more logical to strike down Ragnos while he was alive than waiting till he dies if you could do so because whoever would have killed Ragnos would have become the next Dark Lord without a question.

Oh, my bad, Sadow tricked them instead of manipulating them. That shows a lot for those Sith and Ragnos couldn't have possibly tricked them. 😉

Sorry. But how should Ragnos have "tricked" them ? Sadow simply lied to them. What should Ragnos have done. Tell them that he isn't the Dark Lord so it would make no sense to attack him ?

Sadow still didn't defeat Kressh in a fair fight. (or so I think.) And Sadow was clearly able to destroy Ragnos, but then he would destroy all the other Sith with him and Sadow dreamed of destroying the Republic so he needed an army. It's simple, Sadow planned ahead.

What the hell ? Sadow didn't defeat Kressh in a "fair fight" they fought into a standstill the first time before there duel was interrupted and in the end Sadow did blow Kressh ship up.
And Sadow was clearly not able to destroy Ragnos. If he could have done that he would have done it. That's how the Sith Empire work. And please: We know that Ragnos was Simus student before Ragnos took the title as a dark lord. If Sadow could have destroyed Ragnos why he should have waited more than a century until Ragnos have died and watch how Ragnos didn't even think of attack the Republic ?

Uh, Simus and Ragnos fought to see who would BECOME the dark lord. I'm not 100% sure, but I am pretty positive Simus wasn't already the dark lord. Even if he was, how does that compare to Sadow who existed after Simus did?

Since you still don't get it: You kill the Dark Lord you become the next Dark Lord - none of them died in a natural way before Ragnos. So Simus did take his title from another Dark Lord.
And Sadow was already one of Simus students. Ragnos being a half-breed had lived for more than 100 years (maybe 140-150) yet people with pure Sith blood would even archieve a longer lifetime naturaly.

Yes, yes, the sith empire could be all that but we don't know it and there's nothing to indicate it is. Obviously it had some planets but I doubt hundreds.

Just to name a few:
- Korriban
- Malachor V (see...that system must at least have 5 planets)
- Dromund Kaas
- Ziost
- Koros Minor

Actualy that doesn't matter because their could still be billions of Sith around from 20,000 years of history.

Why does Vader not try to kill Sidious after he lied to him? I sure don't know. Hotheads make dumb-ass choices but I'm guessing Vader didn't want to risk dying and simply wanted to join forces, same with Ulic.

WTF ? When should Vader have killed Sidious ? Before being in his suit he needed Sidious so he had to keep him alive because he feared that Padme would die otherwise. After being in his suit he was no longer powerful enough to kill Sidious.

I'm not done yet...

Listen up, fanboys... You've dragged Revan's name through a whole lot of mud this week. You've stubbornly refused to accept anything that doesn't support your argument but twisted and regugitated words to make Revan out to be some Force god. I didn't initially understand the fuss over Revan when I came back after my two month vaca... but now i do. And it's worse than the Vader fanboyism, and right up there with the Sidious fanboyism, neck and neck. So listen up, Frobo... Emperor Revan. Time for YOU to prove up, since the evidence is sooo in your favor.

- What's Revan's gender?
- What's Revan's appearance?
- Revan's known lightsaber forms?
- Name the conditions in which he killed the following characters; also, note if he was totally alone. If he wasn't list where it says he did all the work by himself regardless if applicable... Ysannis, Mandalore, Bandon, Malak, Bastila, the Sith governor on Taris, Bendak Starkiller (assuming Revan did fight Starkiller, which might be hard for you to prove...)
- List the information (even if partial) Revan gained from his plumderings, if anything. List all artifacts he specfically took (And don't say Tulak Hord's holocron, since it wasn't a holocron, it was a Sith tablet, and Revan was only given a concise rundown of it from a crazy old sith.
- Show proof of where Revan is the heart of the Force. If you cannot, provide insight into Kreia's reasoning behind this statement.
- Reinforce Kreia's crediblity. If you can do so, you must make room for the possibility that she is right about Ragnos, which means Ragnos was exceptional enough for her to comment on his ability and rule.
- Prove which ending of KOTOR is canon.
- Prove that Revan is even still alive as of KOTOR II.
- Prove that Revan became better in the Force than he was after KOTOR. If you must cite Malak, reinforce his observation with facts and insight into his mentality.
- Prove how powerful one must be to wield the Star Forge. If you cannot, you must admit that the point is moot, since it gives us no measure of Revan's powers. Also, the only reasoning you have behind "ONly Revan and Malak can control the Star Forge" comes from a quote from Bastila -only if- you choose Revan as being evil in the sequel. Note that Bastila never specifies whether the Star Forge was sabotaged (which you must admit was possible) and that no one could control it later as a result of said sabotage.
- Prove that Revan can beat Ragnos.

Good luck with that...

owned...
Nice work, Janus.

It had to be done, dammit. The embracing of unreason drove me to it...

This really bothers me...poor Revan is really gaining a bad rep due to fanboys such as Emporer Revan and Frobo.

I agree. I mean, I still like Revan. He has style and isn't some savage beast of a Sith lord. But I'm comfortable with the fat that nearly everyone who came before him would school his ass good.

Listen up, fanboys... You've dragged Revan's name through a whole lot of mud this week. You've stubbornly refused to accept anything that doesn't support your argument but twisted and regugitated words to make Revan out to be some Force god. I didn't initially understand the fuss over Revan when I came back after my two month vaca... but now i do. And it's worse than the Vader fanboyism, and right up there with the Sidious fanboyism, neck and neck. So listen up, Frobo... Emperor Revan. Time for YOU to prove up, since the evidence is sooo in your favor.

See my comment on stone deaf, that's what they are. I don't know why we are bothering wasting our times, our "kung fu" attacks will have no effect on these people. To quote the Fantastic Four: "Where are your ears?"

In the case of Emperor Revan and Darth Frobo, they have none, they are stone deaf.

I repeat, and I'll bold this for you since the fanboys have trouble grasping it:

The ONLY evidence contrary to Ragnos was that there is lack of evidence detailing his greatness.

That's it. That's all. Don't twist what we know around, don't screw with it, don't tamper it, don't induce your halfwit speculation to it, don't fidget with it, don't reword it, and don't bloody try to deny it!

I have to agree with the above posters, the Revan fanboys are fekkin pwn3d.

There is nothing saying he was great merely something saying he was in charge of great people, and there have been many exceptions to the strongest ruling the sith empire, malak,sidious,traya and many others. There is nothing other then assumption saying Ragnos is great there are all the people Revan has killed how he killed them is irrelevant the point is that he won, we have numerous quotes from KOTOR saying that Revan knew all the forms very well, tulaks HOLOCRON found in the body of a dead animal (the hermits teachings were different) he went to malachor which is a known fact, he went to korriban which is a known fact supported by KOTOR he found multiple artifacts in those same tombs. No matter which ending is cannon he's equally as powerful so that point is moot. Him being alive or not is irrelevant. Malak spent his entire life with Revan learning from him and as an apprentice sized him up and his abilities based off a lifetime of knowledge so malak would know, from there he regained everything he had studied up until then. The star forge is a powerful artifact of the darkside only the most powerful sith lord at the time can use it you need to be powerful enough to harness a sun point final.

DarthRevan89 dude as long as we're owning for revan in a debate your all supportive but the second there's actual opposition you call us fanboys what the hell man? Truth is I beleive there are some who can beat Revan, Ragnos just isn't one of them, not atleast until there's more proof...how about until there's any proof that matters.
finally prove anything about how powerful was based off fact and remeber my previous statement(s) about the strongest sith not always leading which completely undermines anything you can speculate about ragnos(which is the best you can do) and simus. So basically Ragnos rule says next to nothing, his beating simus also next to nothing and his being feared also nothing. So that leaves you with drum roll please...absolutley nothing proving your case. So you got nothing besides specualtion and at best educated guesses and we have real evidence and statements supporting Revan.

All I can say is: