ragnos vs. reven

By the way for all those calling me and emperor Revan fanboys, we have admitted in the past numerous times Revan would lose to certain people, we back up our opinions with hard facts we tell the truth about who we support instead of making things up.

Fanboys would be people who refuse to admit their charachter would lose despite evidence to the contrary, have no evidence or if they do no evidence that stands up to scrutiny and base all their points of guesses and assumptions based off one or two facts that can be easily undermined, oh yeah that's everyone supporting Ragnos in this thread
As for this nothing Revan has done has been greater then ruling the sith empire how about his owning the mandalorians,the republic thousands of jedi and a sith empire larger then ragnos's basically singlehandedly, how about singlehandedly winning two wars? Opposed to ruling an empire without fighting anyone for 100 years despite the fact you could VERY well not deserve it (like the above mentioned sith lords) and merely keep it through manipulation/cowardice or a fear that you also could have POSSIBLY not deserved. You don't know anything about Ragnos except that he ruled for a century over the sith at the height of that EMPIRES power everything else is just heresay an educated guess at best now considering all the possibilities I've mentioned that could make him ruling meaningless possibilities that until we have concrete evidence have to be considered on an equal level with your fanboyish ,"he must be insanely powerful" ideas as both are probable. So really you ultimatley have nothing
that your trying to pass off as fact so you just don't have to admit you're wrong because going by real facts Ragnos gets:

fanboys are also people who just cant see the evidence that is already there.

name all the people Revan would lose to.

Hey hey.

Until you answer this:

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
I'm not done yet...
- What's Revan's gender?
- What's Revan's appearance?
- Revan's known lightsaber forms?
- Name the conditions in which he killed the following characters; also, note if he was totally alone. If he wasn't list where it says he did all the work by himself regardless if applicable... Ysannis, Mandalore, Bandon, Malak, Bastila, the Sith governor on Taris, Bendak Starkiller (assuming Revan did fight Starkiller, which might be hard for you to prove...)
- List the information (even if partial) Revan gained from his plumderings, if anything. List all artifacts he specfically took (And don't say Tulak Hord's holocron, since it wasn't a holocron, it was a Sith tablet, and Revan was only given a concise rundown of it from a crazy old sith.
- Show proof of where Revan is the heart of the Force. If you cannot, provide insight into Kreia's reasoning behind this statement.
- Reinforce Kreia's crediblity. If you can do so, you must make room for the possibility that she is right about Ragnos, which means Ragnos was exceptional enough for her to comment on his ability and rule.
- Prove which ending of KOTOR is canon.
- Prove that Revan is even still alive as of KOTOR II.
- Prove that Revan became better in the Force than he was after KOTOR. If you must cite Malak, reinforce his observation with facts and insight into his mentality.
- Prove how powerful one must be to wield the Star Forge. If you cannot, you must admit that the point is moot, since it gives us no measure of Revan's powers. Also, the only reasoning you have behind "ONly Revan and Malak can control the Star Forge" comes from a quote from Bastila -only if- you choose Revan as being evil in the sequel. Note that Bastila never specifies whether the Star Forge was sabotaged (which you must admit was possible) and that no one could control it later as a result of said sabotage.
- Prove that Revan can beat Ragnos.

Stop posting, fanboys.

Yeah, back up with facts my ass. More like back up with circumstantial evidence, baseless speculation, senseless factual degradation, and gameplay experience. Yeah, lots of factual evidence there, don't you think? So much that all the actual "fact" has been covered by Nai alone about 5 times, much less everyone else.

*sigh* this thread has depressed me for some reason.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
fanboys are also people who just cant see the evidence that is already there.

name all the people Revan would lose to.

Exar Kun
Tulak hord
Njo Luke possibly
possibly ragnos if someone could give me evidence instead of assumptions.

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Exar Kun
Tulak hord
Njo Luke possibly
possibly ragnos if someone could give me evidence instead of assumptions.

Woah hypocrisy!

You know LESS about Tulak Hord than you do about Ragnos, yet you say Revan will lose to Tulak Hord.

A list of 3 people?

Wow, what a COMPREHENSIVE LIST!!! It's so large that you absolutely can't be a fanboy. What next? Revan will beat Nihilus AND his Force Eating ability?

Holy freakin' JAWA!!! Let this thread die. Ragnos wins, end of story. However, I must congratulate Frobo and Emperor Revan for putting up an unrelenting argument.

And what if Nadd or Sadow > Kun? Would not not acknowledge the possibility they could beat Revan also?

Your list, as short as it is, has generated so many incongruities, you might as well get paid by Supershadow, or become an NJO writer; you'd do great as either.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Hey hey.

Until you answer this:

Stop posting, fanboys.

Yeah, back up with facts my ass. More like back up with circumstantial evidence, baseless speculation, senseless factual degradation, and gameplay experience. Yeah, lots of factual evidence there, don't you think? So much that all the actual "fact" has been covered by Nai alone about 5 times, much less everyone else.

yeah except all the facts about revan are based off gameplay experience and gameplay quotes which is all facts too bad about that eh.

As for facts with the exceptions of ragnos ruling the sith at the height of their empire and defeating simus nothing was anything more then assumptions and specualtation. Other then those two statements give me concrete evidence from a credible source that says anything about Ragnos's power or abilities. There's nothing except maybe some more guessing from Nai and you face it your guessing and speculations will never amount up to evidence which leaves you with nothing except the above mentioned facts everything else is not fact and unless supported by quotes from a credible website or piece of eu will be just known as the guess it is and ignored. I refuse to waste my time with anymore of your heresay and BS I refuse to waste any more of my time debating with you if you refuse to do so as this thread really is getting depressing.

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Exar Kun
Tulak hord
Njo Luke possibly
possibly ragnos if someone could give me evidence instead of assumptions.

Just to tell you...Revan could and probably would lose to:

Marka Ragnos
Freedon Nadd
Exar Kun
Naga Sadow
Tulak Hord
NJO Luke
Nihilus
DE Sidious
and finally Yoda.

And since you base your own oppinion on assumptions you better should not demand proof from other people...just to tell you:

- you say that Revan is good in lightsaber combat based on the assumption that he used Tulak Hords form (again assuming that Tulak Hord is the best lightsaber duelist ever)
- you say that he can beat most force users despite the fact that most people Revan creamed personaly were either non-force users (Echani, Mandalorians) or force users inferior to him (or even force users that were captured before)
- you say that he had a huge knowledge because of the things he found on Malachor and Korriban without even knowing what he did found there.

If I start reasoning like that pretty much anybody from the movies can destroy everybody from the EU section (Revan as well as Ragnos included).

Last waste of time: Tulak is said to be the greatest sith duelist ever meaning he would pwn any other sith in a duel if Nadd and sadow pwn kun then I'll admit them as well and with nhilus's eating ability he would beat anyone (except the exile). My list contains people who have facts supporting their greatness not half ass guesses like you generate keep that up and maybe you could actually make enough lies so that someone would beleive you 😉

As for yoda nai you got your ass pwned all ove that arguement don't waste my time.

I say he is good in lightsaber combat because of who he killed.

i say he can beat most force users because of all the knowledge he possesed.

I say the power of this knowledge because kreia with only a bit of that knowledge killed three jedi with a wave of her hand, finit last time I waste.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Just to tell you...Revan could and probably would lose to:

Marka Ragnos
Freedon Nadd
Exar Kun
Naga Sadow
Tulak Hord
NJO Luke
Nihilus
DE Sidious
and finally Yoda.

And since you base your own oppinion on assumptions you better should not demand proof from other people...just to tell you:

- you say that Revan is good in lightsaber combat based on the assumption that he used Tulak Hords form (again assuming that Tulak Hord is the best lightsaber duelist ever)
- you say that he can beat most force users despite the fact that most people Revan creamed personaly were either non-force users (Echani, Mandalorians) or force users inferior to him (or even force users that were captured before)
- you say that he had a huge knowledge because of the things he found on Malachor and Korriban without even knowing what he did found there.

If I start reasoning like that pretty much anybody from the movies can destroy everybody from the EU section (Revan as well as Ragnos included).

Listen to these words of wisdom. Although I have my doubts that Revan would loose to Yoda, but hey thats IMO.

Originally posted by darthrevan89
Listen to these words of wisdom. Although I have my doubts that Revan would loose to Yoda, but hey thats IMO.

It's possible, but doubtful. However, you should have seen Nai's arguments for Yoda in Itachi's thread. . . .

yeah except all the facts about revan are based off gameplay experience and gameplay quotes which is all facts too bad about that eh.

There's a difference between gameplay QUOTES, CUTSCENES, and other such things that are universal for all experiences as compared to gameplay experience (i.e. Malak was so easy, I killed him in 2 seconds, ergo he must suck).

As for facts with the exceptions of ragnos ruling the sith at the height of their empire and defeating simus nothing was anything more then assumptions and specualtation.

There are 3 facts here:

1) Simus was mentioned explicitly as the most powerful of his era.
2) The era was considered/mentioned explicitly as the height of the Sith Empire
3) It was mentioned specifically that Ragnos killed Simus, and became Dark Lord.

Those are 3 facts, it's not hard to extrapolate that Ragnos > Simus > people of his era, k?

Other then those two statements give me concrete evidence from a credible source that says anything about Ragnos's power or abilities. There's nothing except maybe some more guessing from Nai and you face it your guessing and speculations will never amount up to evidence which leaves you with nothing except the above mentioned facts everything else is not fact and unless supported by quotes from a credible website or piece of eu will be just known as the guess it is and ignored.

The facts are he ruled for over a hundred years, he was never bested and died a natural death. We know that the Sith Empire IDEOLOGY is that the strongest shall rule, therein you get people like Kun and Ulic, or Sadow and Kressh fighting each other.

We can conclude Ragnos didn't get killed because it was mentioned he died a NATURAL DEATH (woah, big assumption, right?). It is a fact that Ancient Sith Empire existed by the strongest shall rule. Therefore, it is an easy deduction that Ragnos was the most powerful of his time, greater than two individuals that were extremely powerful (Sadow and Kressh). There's no lies about that one. No "speculation", basic factual deduction.

As for YOUR and EMPEROR'S speculation, here we go:

Sadow still didn't defeat Kressh in a fair fight. (or so I think.) And Sadow was clearly able to destroy Ragnos, but then he would destroy all the other Sith with him and Sadow dreamed of destroying the Republic so he needed an army. It's simple, Sadow planned ahead.

This is an absolutely steaming pile of Sith.

Revans level of pre-cog was the highest don't try to pin me as a fanboy because you can't except the facts.

Yes, because clearly there is no one in the history of Starwars that could've had greater precog, right? And you say you aren't a fanboy.

Artifacts and knowledge are two different things and neither kun nor nad had any interest in things that would give them knowledge they wanted things that would give them power and unless you can tell me of another force user who learned multiple planets worth of info please tell me.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Other than that, you're just pulling straws out of a hat.

First of all so ragnos was the most feared being feared is not a skill or an ability and second as you know nothing about ragnos's swordsmanship outside of that one fight he won let me tell you a bit about Revans, Revan studied from every form becoming extrordinarily advanced in his knowledge of all of them, he learned everything possible from Tulak hords holocron tulak being the greatest sith swordsman ever. Revan was also inanely fast and strong more so when relying on the force and had battle pre-cog to the point where he could predict his opponents moves well before his opponent even thought of them.

Again, does this mean he's greater than Ragnos? No. It doesn't show jack other than he's strong relative to his time. You're assuming that because he learned from the best masters and Tulak's holocron that he can beat Ragnos? And you say that Ragnos supporters are assuming.

You are a hypocrite. when you guess someone was powerful or could do something from half ass facts it's fine and it's a "deduction" but when I think that someone might not have been that great using the same half ass facts suddenly I'm dumb and assuming things.

You apparently don't know what a syllogism is.

Here, I'll simplify it for your simpleton ass:

1) The Sith Empire was built on the ideology that the strongest shall rule, so the strongest did rule.
2) Ragnos ruled for over a century and died a natural death.

It's a NATURAL deduction to say Ragnos is the most powerful. It's speculatory crap to say "Ragnos may not be powerful, he may just be a good manipulator."

What proof do you have that Ragnos wasn't powerful, but that he was simply a good manipulator? Please, get your Dectective Dumbass "facts" out of the thread.

And why didn't you answer what Janus asked you? You're DUCKING the f*cking facts.

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
There is nothing saying he was great merely something saying he was in charge of great people, and there have been many exceptions to the strongest ruling the sith empire, malak,sidious,traya and many others. There is nothing other then assumption saying Ragnos is great there are all the people Revan has killed how he killed them is irrelevant the point is that he won, we have numerous quotes from KOTOR saying that Revan knew all the forms very well, tulaks HOLOCRON found in the body of a dead animal (the hermits teachings were different) he went to malachor which is a known fact, he went to korriban which is a known fact supported by KOTOR he found multiple artifacts in those same tombs. No matter which ending is cannon he's equally as powerful so that point is moot. Him being alive or not is irrelevant. Malak spent his entire life with Revan learning from him and as an apprentice sized him up and his abilities based off a lifetime of knowledge so malak would know, from there he regained everything he had studied up until then. The star forge is a powerful artifact of the darkside only the most powerful sith lord at the time can use it you need to be powerful enough to harness a sun point final.

DarthRevan89 dude as long as we're owning for revan in a debate your all supportive but the second there's actual opposition you call us fanboys what the hell man? Truth is I beleive there are some who can beat Revan, Ragnos just isn't one of them, not atleast until there's more proof...how about until there's any proof that matters.
finally prove anything about how powerful was based off fact and remeber my previous statement(s) about the strongest sith not always leading which completely undermines anything you can speculate about ragnos(which is the best you can do) and simus. So basically Ragnos rule says next to nothing, his beating simus also next to nothing and his being feared also nothing. So that leaves you with drum roll please...absolutley nothing proving your case. So you got nothing besides specualtion and at best educated guesses and we have real evidence and statements supporting Revan.

All I can say is:

First off, learn to prove up.

- Name how Malak, Traya, and Sidious are exceptions to this rule. Or better yet, let me do all the thinking for you! Let's see... You have no evidence to suggest that Malak ever had to fight for his position. Since he killed REvan (even cowardly) he was doubtless the next Sith lord because he had usurped the throne and obviously no one killed him in the next year. Traya was defeated by two Sith at once (Of which I believe Nihilus' special talents had a factor in it) and later on she dominated Sion like he was her godgiven *****. As for Sidious, he lived in a time of two Sith, and he always made sure to keep the other Sith lesser than himself, or at least stay in a position of safety. So basically, your point is moot.

- Irrelevant to the point Revan has won? On the contrary, how he won has EVERYTHING to do with his ability. If he killed Yusanis with eighty Sith troopers by his side, I would say that's a piss poor win and deserves to be stricken from the record. But obviously, if Ragnos can rule a Sith empire- as you say- being a mere manipulator, it should not matter how he did it, simply that he did do it. And in doing that he is greater than any Sith before or since. So yeah... point is moot.

- Name one ****ing quote from KOTOR II that says ANYTHING about Revan's fighting style that covers all forms. Frobo, I have played the game nine times already to completion. I would HOPE I would know!

- It's not a holocron, it's actually a sith tablet that was all the crazy old sith could (Or would, the smart devil) translate and put into written form from the holocron which he never devulged. It remains lost to time. You have no proof otherwise, I'm sure.

- He went to Malachor. So did Nihilus, Sion, Kreia, and Bao Dur's sensor ball. Are they all better than Ragnos too? No, they arent. So please, try again. You don't know a damn thing about what was or wasn't at Malachor. Thus, you can't prove Revan's measure of power from this fact by itself as it stands, which is on bullshit.

- Multiple artifacts? As so far as we know, the only reference to Revan -actually- (One hundred per cent outside of gameplay possibility terms) getting anything is Ajunta Pall's blade. If he still has that. If it didn't get him killed, since we don't know if he's alive or dead.

- As far as the ending goes, yes it does matter. A darkside Revan would be infiniately more powerful and less scrupulous than a lightside Revan, and he would abide by different ethics and rules in combat, or anywhere else. They are essentially two different people! This is like saying Anakin could have beat Assajj, Dooku, or Luke could have beaten Vader WITHOUT calling on the darkside, since it is "moot" in your educated presumptuous opinion!

- Him being alive IS relevant. Since we don't know the cap of Revan's power (Or even how much he has as of the end of KOTOR I) if he is dead and no one in KOTOR II knows it, he may never have become strong enough to defeat anyone better than Malak.

- Where does it say specifically Malak spent his whole life with Revan? Oh wait... that's bullshit.

- Again, about the Star Forge. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ITS RESTRICTIONS! For all you know, the simpleton Ratakan on the planet could control it. Never anywhere save for Bastila's words was it said that no one but Revan and Malak was able to control the Star Forge. And yet in the load screens for KOTOR I, it mentions that Malak snagged the Star Forge to solidify his rule. And seeing as he was by Revan's side as the thing was discovered, it would make sense only he and Revan could make use of it. Seeing as Bastila never tried to control the Star Forge, I won't take her word as the expert's. And stop being baseless with your assumptions that you have to be the strongest to run the Star Forge. It's ridiculous.

- Back to the point about a "lifetime of knowledge". Well, I have a lifetime of knowledge. So does everyone else able to read this and then some. What's your point? What kind of knowledge? Specifically? Where? Huh? No answer? Oh yeah... sysph.

So there was your rebuttal, Frobo... Let's see...accoring to the pwn-o-meter... you are

****ING PWN3D!

And for your information, Revan would probably lose to the following individuals:

Marka Ragnos
Naga Sadow
Ludo Kressh
Freedon Nadd
Simus
Exar Kun
Nihilus (with eating ability, but who outside of The Exile wouldn't?)
Tulak Hord
Possibly NJO Luke (eww... NJO)

That's pretty minimal actually, given a fair fight, we don't know how powerful Revan is. We know he can beat the crap out of inferior force wielders. How many council members did he kill?

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
As for yoda nai you got your ass pwned all ove that arguement don't waste my time.

Did I ? Can't remember this happening.

I say he is good in lightsaber combat because of who he killed.

Who he killed ? Non force users all the way, pathetic acting Sith and Jedi and Malak who has his own power defined by Revan.

i say he can beat most force users because of all the knowledge he possesed.

I say the power of this knowledge because kreia with only a bit of that knowledge killed three jedi with a wave of her hand, finit last time I waste.

So now...to finaly end that stupid stuff.
Kreia herself admited that the Ancient Sith would make people in KotoR times (including herself) look like children.

Yet...everything Revan found in terms of knowledge comes from the ancient Sith lords - the same people you try to make look weak here. So either you want to tell me that the ancient Sith lords were weak and thereby you have to tell me that Revan is weak too because using their knowledge or you tell me that Revan is great because of his knowledge but in this case you have to admit the ancient sith lords were great because it's their knowledge that Revan used.

However you want to do it. You lose. And don't even try to tell me that Revan after studying the very same knowledge the ancient Sith Lords had would be more used to it than people who not only invented and grow up with that stuff but studied, practiced and used that stuff for 100+ years !

That would be equal to saying a fast-learning Padawan would have more knowledge about the force than Yoda himself.

Originally posted by Illustrious
And for your information, Revan would probably lose to the following individuals:

Marka Ragnos
Naga Sadow
Ludo Kressh
Freedon Nadd
Simus
Exar Kun
Nihilus (with eating ability, but who outside of The Exile wouldn't?)
Tulak Hord
Possibly NJO Luke (eww... NJO)

That's pretty minimal actually, given a fair fight, we don't know how powerful Revan is. We know he can beat the crap out of inferior force wielders. How many council members did he kill?

Let me bring this up on the calculator....

0

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Let me bring this up on the calculator....

0

WOAH!!! That's a huge ****ing number!

If I multiply that by 10, I get.... 0!