ragnos vs. reven

Started by Emperor Revan15 pages

Darth Frobo has a great point here. Not only does Kreia say that Ragnos manipulated his enemies into fighting each other, but right after Ragnos died, Sadow manipulated them into declaring him their dark lord. That tells me once Ragnos defeated Simus (who by the way, where do you guys hear that he was "the greatest Sith magician ever"?) Ragnos became ruler of the Sith. Obviously if Sadow manipulated them in one day, Ragnos wouldn't have had a problem with it.

Now out of every other Sith, how many actually try and usurp their masters by simple fighting. No one I can think of at the moment. Most simply took orders without question. Sidious killed his master in his sleep, Ulic and Malak betrayed their masters from afar, and Sion had help from Nihilus. So I hate to say, all other evidence seems to show that Sith do not usually challenge their superiors for power in a simple fight, herego Ragnos did not fight nearly as much as people think.

Next, Ragnos had supporters. If everyone hated him why was his funeral such a big deal and no one knew what to do without him? Like I said before, most Sith took their orders from superiors without question, and if he's the head of the Sith empire, his army would be greater than any other sith resistance.

Now Ragnos lovers also love to say Sadow and everyone feared him. Where did that come from? I've never heard any source say that everyone feared him. So Sadow didn't attack him, he simply was smart about and waited until after Ragnos' death and played off their confusion. Sadow wanted the Sith to bow before him, and to have the Sith fight the Republic (remember the Sith LOST, even thought they were far wealthier and in possession of bizzare technology, he could blow up stars, had a form of battle meditation, and they still lost to a Republic Revan conquered with half the army it had, Against battle meditation no less, and it was far more Revan's tactics than the Star Forge.) Even at the height of the Sith empire you people praise, and all those Sith lords you claim were so powerful, they still lost yet Revan succeeded with only one other Sith.

Now obviously Sadow wanted control of the Sith so it makes perfect sense for him not to try and kill Ragnos prematurely, the Sith would've hated that. And no, I don't think Sadow feared him, especially if he could simply wave his hand and blow up the nearest star and obliterate the entire solar system.

The next thing, Ragnos lovers continually say everyone feared Ragnos' spirit. Where do they get that conclusion? Neither Sadow nor Kressh bothered to listen to Sadow. Ragnos' spirit announced Kun the dark lord later on so you think Kun feared him? Jaden didn't fear his power, why would Kun or Sadow?

And lastly, the binary star Sadow destroyed was unstable anyway. Ragnos wasn't even the one to do it anyway. Oh but you say he can, yet everyone else can't?

We don't have nearly enough info on Ragnos to try and gauge his power, but even assuming he's way stronger than all others (not accusing you Nai Fohl) is fanboyish.

Darth Janus: You know I like you, and I'm not trying to be mean, but you called me a fanboy earlier. Yet, I'm here with Frobo defending my position while you've simply sat there saying he's the most powerful and we shouldn't even bother trying. That's pretty fanboyish to me.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan

Now Ragnos lovers also love to say Sadow and everyone feared him. Where did that come from? I've never heard any source say that everyone feared him. So Sadow didn't attack him, he simply was smart about and waited until after Ragnos' death and played off their confusion. Sadow wanted the Sith to bow before him, and to have the Sith fight the Republic (remember the Sith LOST, even thought they were far wealthier and in possession of bizzare technology, he could blow up stars, had a form of battle meditation, and they still lost to a Republic Revan conquered with half the army it had, Against battle meditation no less, and it was far more Revan's tactics than the Star Forge.) Even at the height of the Sith empire you people praise, and all those Sith lords you claim were so powerful, they still lost yet Revan succeeded with only one other Sith.

Now obviously Sadow wanted control of the Sith so it makes perfect sense for him not to try and kill Ragnos prematurely, the Sith would've hated that. And no, I don't think Sadow feared him, especially if he could simply wave his hand and blow up the nearest star and obliterate the entire solar system.

The next thing, Ragnos lovers continually say everyone feared Ragnos' spirit. Where do they get that conclusion? Neither Sadow nor Kressh bothered to listen to Sadow. Ragnos' spirit announced Kun the dark lord later on so you think Kun feared him? Jaden didn't fear his power, why would Kun or Sadow?

And lastly, the binary star Sadow destroyed was unstable anyway. Ragnos wasn't even the one to do it anyway. Oh but you say he can, yet everyone else can't?

Revan did not suceed in destroying the Republic. He lost because he was betrayed, just like Kun.

You aren't taking into account Sith Culture. The strongest rule. In our society, if Bin Laden killed Bush tomorrow, Osama would not become the leader of the US. In Sith society, he would. Ragnos was also a half-blood and those were hated back then. Killing Ragnos would have gotten Sadow some serious support.

What does Ragnos' spirit making Exar the DLOS have to do with Exar being afraid of him. It does show that Ulic was afraid of him. Ulic is not a pushover. He could take Malak for sure and even give Revan a hard time. If we look at that in simple terms, it shows
Ragnos spirt>Ulic
Ulic>Malak
Ulic<Revan
Ragnos spirit?Revan

Assuming that spirits are much weaker than the actual person, Ragnos must be better than Ulic, who is close to Exar. Exar has already destroyed Nadd's spirit by this point.

If we assume that spirits aren't much weaker than the real person, then Exar has just gained a ton of status with me. If the spirit is about equal, Exar at probably around 2/3 of his strength when fighting Ulic, defeated a very powerful Sith Lord. Either way is testament to Ragnos' strength.

Glentract: Revan had the Republic fleet decimated, the Jedi numbered at about a hundred, and then he simply left.

yes, but if someone killed Bin Laden, they would become the leader would they not? That doesn't happen because they are manipulated by him, and fear what might happen.

Who made up this crap that people hate half-breeds? Seriously where does everyone hear this? They gave him a giant funeral and no one killed him in a century? If they hated him they would've banded togther, and destroyed him or Sadow would've simply destroyed the solar system. If they hated him, Ragnos wouldn't have lasted a month.

Next, Ulic barely knew anything about the Sith. If a spirit suddenly came out of nowhere of some weird creature, it might freak me out too. I don't think Ragnos' spirit could beat Ulic when after it was charged with enough Force energy to power an army of non-Force users to dark Jedi capable of using several different powers, he couldn't even beat Jaden?

I also don't think Ulic's as powerful as Malak but I must admit, I don't know a whole lot about him, except from what Lord Darkstar posts.

Revan destroyed Ajunta Pall's spirit (who came from an earlier time than Ragnos) with ease before getting far, far stronger. I would say his power easily tripled in that time but I'm too lazy to list why at the moment. A quick sum, he was paralyzed by Malak on the Leviathan not long after, than after more and more fighting, Revan ploughed through dozens of Sith apprenitces, assassin droids, and Malak's 3 most powerful dark Jedi with only Bastila and a non-Force user with him. Then he defeats Malak twice in a row who also said he's stronger than his previous reign now, and after that he recovers his full memories including knowledge he plundered from the Jedi, Korriban and especiall Malachor V which is a planet sized sith storehouse of knowledge. And we all know how much lust Revan had for knowledge.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Darth Frobo has a great point here. Not only does Kreia say that Ragnos manipulated his enemies into fighting each other, but right after Ragnos died, Sadow manipulated them into declaring him their dark lord. That tells me once Ragnos defeated Simus (who by the way, where do you guys hear that he was "the greatest Sith magician ever"?) Ragnos became ruler of the Sith. Obviously if Sadow manipulated them in one day, Ragnos wouldn't have had a problem with it.

Now out of every other Sith, how many actually try and usurp their masters by simple fighting. No one I can think of at the moment. Most simply took orders without question. Sidious killed his master in his sleep, Ulic and Malak betrayed their masters from afar, and Sion had help from Nihilus. So I hate to say, all other evidence seems to show that Sith do not usually challenge their superiors for power in a simple fight, herego Ragnos did not fight nearly as much as people think.

Next, Ragnos had supporters. If everyone hated him why was his funeral such a big deal and no one knew what to do without him? Like I said before, most Sith took their orders from superiors without question, and if he's the head of the Sith empire, his army would be greater than any other sith resistance.

Now Ragnos lovers also love to say Sadow and everyone feared him. Where did that come from? I've never heard any source say that everyone feared him. So Sadow didn't attack him, he simply was smart about and waited until after Ragnos' death and played off their confusion. Sadow wanted the Sith to bow before him, and to have the Sith fight the Republic (remember the Sith LOST, even thought they were far wealthier and in possession of bizzare technology, he could blow up stars, had a form of battle meditation, and they still lost to a Republic Revan conquered with half the army it had, Against battle meditation no less, and it was far more Revan's tactics than the Star Forge.) Even at the height of the Sith empire you people praise, and all those Sith lords you claim were so powerful, they still lost yet Revan succeeded with only one other Sith.

Now obviously Sadow wanted control of the Sith so it makes perfect sense for him not to try and kill Ragnos prematurely, the Sith would've hated that. And no, I don't think Sadow feared him, especially if he could simply wave his hand and blow up the nearest star and obliterate the entire solar system.

The next thing, Ragnos lovers continually say everyone feared Ragnos' spirit. Where do they get that conclusion? Neither Sadow nor Kressh bothered to listen to Sadow. Ragnos' spirit announced Kun the dark lord later on so you think Kun feared him? Jaden didn't fear his power, why would Kun or Sadow?

And lastly, the binary star Sadow destroyed was unstable anyway. Ragnos wasn't even the one to do it anyway. Oh but you say he can, yet everyone else can't?

We don't have nearly enough info on Ragnos to try and gauge his power, but even assuming he's way stronger than all others (not accusing you Nai Fohl) is fanboyish.

Darth Janus: You know I like you, and I'm not trying to be mean, but you called me a fanboy earlier. Yet, I'm here with Frobo defending my position while you've simply sat there saying he's the most powerful and we shouldn't even bother trying. That's pretty fanboyish to me.

Don't toss that term around too casually. There's a fine line between what I represent in this argument and what you represent. A fanboy is someone who goes above and beyond the call of fan duty to defend someone, using circular reasoning, personal insults, or other's help generally. I've simply made up my mind and that's that. I don't run around saying Ragnos pwns all. I don't have a ragnos sig or avatar. I don't even bring the guy up unless there's a damn good reason.

If I was a fanboy for Ragnos in this case, I would be attacking every single thing you guys say, totally undermining it, even if it is logically superior. I would totally ignore all other points. I would not realize that the argument went against me long ago. And I would only post on Ragnos threads. It's that simple.

Now, you're not the worst person on the earth to me because I consider you a Revan fanboy... You're just typically very wrong in any argument against Revan. Now next year, KOTOR III, Revan could very well reach levels of amazing power. Who knows? But Revan as we know him can't beat Ragnos, and this futile attempt to detract from that argument and attack Ragnos' credibility with a bunch of twisted words and bad logic isn't gonna change anyone's mind.

Now, since evidence is scarce on both sides, what we do know favors Ragnos way over Revan. It also sets him up there with the elite Sith of all time. And since an elite ancient Sith is stronger for aggressive Force power (and most likely fighting skill) than any jedi paragon, the idea is ragnos is the heaviest hitter in the land until proven otherwise.

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Glentract: Revan had the Republic fleet decimated, the Jedi numbered at about a hundred, and then he simply left.

yes, but if someone killed Bin Laden, they would become the leader would they not? That doesn't happen because they are manipulated by him, and fear what might happen.

Who made up this crap that people hate half-breeds? Seriously where does everyone hear this? They gave him a giant funeral and no one killed him in a century? If they hated him they would've banded togther, and destroyed him or Sadow would've simply destroyed the solar system. If they hated him, Ragnos wouldn't have lasted a month.

Next, Ulic barely knew anything about the Sith. If a spirit suddenly came out of nowhere of some weird creature, it might freak me out too. I don't think Ragnos' spirit could beat Ulic when after it was charged with enough Force energy to power an army of non-Force users to dark Jedi capable of using several different powers, he couldn't even beat Jaden?

I also don't think Ulic's as powerful as Malak but I must admit, I don't know a whole lot about him, except from what Lord Darkstar posts.

Revan destroyed Ajunta Pall's spirit (who came from an earlier time than Ragnos) with ease before getting far, far stronger. I would say his power easily tripled in that time but I'm too lazy to list why at the moment. A quick sum, he was paralyzed by Malak on the Leviathan not long after, than after more and more fighting, Revan ploughed through dozens of Sith apprenitces, assassin droids, and Malak's 3 most powerful dark Jedi with only Bastila and a non-Force user with him. Then he defeats Malak twice in a row who also said he's stronger than his previous reign now, and after that he recovers his full memories including knowledge he plundered from the Jedi, Korriban and especiall Malachor V which is a planet sized sith storehouse of knowledge. And we all know how much lust Revan had for knowledge.

PS... Kreia said that halfbreeds were reviled.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Don't toss that term around too casually. There's a fine line between what I represent in this argument and what you represent. A fanboy is someone who goes above and beyond the call of fan duty to defend someone, using circular reasoning, personal insults, or other's help generally. I've simply made up my mind and that's that. I don't run around saying Ragnos pwns all. I don't have a ragnos sig or avatar. I don't even bring the guy up unless there's a damn good reason.

If I was a fanboy for Ragnos in this case, I would be attacking every single thing you guys say, totally undermining it, even if it is logically superior. I would totally ignore all other points. I would not realize that the argument went against me long ago. And I would only post on Ragnos threads. It's that simple.

Now, you're not the worst person on the earth to me because I consider you a Revan fanboy... You're just typically very wrong in any argument against Revan. Now next year, KOTOR III, Revan could very well reach levels of amazing power. Who knows? But Revan as we know him can't beat Ragnos, and this futile attempt to detract from that argument and attack Ragnos' credibility with a bunch of twisted words and bad logic isn't gonna change anyone's mind.

Now, since evidence is scarce on both sides, what we do know favors Ragnos way over Revan. It also sets him up there with the elite Sith of all time. And since an elite ancient Sith is stronger for aggressive Force power (and most likely fighting skill) than any jedi paragon, the idea is ragnos is the heaviest hitter in the land until proven otherwise.

It's funny you said all this, I'm not any of the things you mentioned except perhaps the first one. I have always defended my position whereas here you just say Ragnos is the strongest, that's a fact, and nothing can change my mind right now. IMO that's fanboyism. Ragnos is not proven to be the strongest, even Illustrious says that. And if he was, why is he barely mentioned on Star Wars sites and why do none of them even comment on his power?

Maybe I'm very wrong to you, but Fishy often agrees with me on the Revan situation. Bunch of twisted words and bad logic? We barely know anything about him yet you just think he's the most powerful, won't post any reasons why, and won't change your mind. You don't even try to counter all the reasons Frobo and I have come up with. If anything is logical, it would be for Revan since he has far more accomplishments and more impressive ones. Yes, I still think you're a fanboy for Ragnos, and yes, I still admit I'm a little defensive towards Revan, I never denied it. But it doesn't interfere with how I rate his power either. If I think he'll lose, I don't hesitate to post it.

As for your P.S. I remember she called him a half breed but I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that she didn't say all Sith hated them.

"PS... Kreia said that halfbreeds were reviled."

and Kreia has never once lied. JK. But still, what reason does she have to lie about that.

Is the Jawa party crumbling, the darkside will do that you know.

When Revan almost destroyed the Republic army, it had been severaly hurt by the Mandalorians only a few years earlier. It had also been severaly weakened by Exar's attack only forty years earlier.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
"PS... Kreia said that halfbreeds were reviled."

and Kreia has never once lied. JK. But still, what reason does she have to lie about that.

Good point, I actually do remember her saying something on those lines come to think of it. I'll try and play that part sometime and get back to you on that.

The Republic was hurt by Kun's forces, but Revan's 1/3 of the Republic army was what fought the Mandalorians, and he took the remnants of that against which would be less than half of the Republic's forces. Obviously the Star Forge did help some, but when you listen to the Jedi masters, they all credit the war to Revan, not the Star Forge. Without Bastila, the Republic would've lost.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
When Revan almost destroyed the Republic army, it had been severaly hurt by the Mandalorians only a few years earlier. It had also been severaly weakened by Exar's attack only forty years earlier.

That's true, but it's true with practically any dictator. They have to come in a time of weakness, as its almost impossible to upset a stable balance by ones own accord.

Not this song and dance again. I've already defended Ragnos' high esteem in the past. Why regurgitate it all again? Unless you can put it into some way of looking that will totally blow my mind. Like, a good example would be where Darth Windu reminded me about Dooku's perceptions of Grievious in LOE, and how GG wins when he has the advantage of surprise and terror. He took a direct piece of evidence and made an observation that made me stop and reevaluate my whole way of thinking about Grievious and even Ki-Adi-Mundi. By putting it into perspective, Darth Windu changed my mind on the issue.

But I don't see anything coming from you and Darth Frobo that even resembles that. It's all just undermining his accomplishments and discrediting him because you haven't seen anything. It would be like someone arguing that Patton was a better general than Hannibal just because you have more empiracal evidence showing Patton's tactics. No one's saying you have to utterly believe with utmost conviction that Ragnos is very powerful and very cunning... It's just really obvious to those of us who aren't on a character bashing mission.

And as for "IMO".... your opinion regarding the definition of fanboy apparently applies to whoever doesn't share your views. That's ridiculous. I suggest you stow it. I called you a fanboy because of what you're doing now, and what you've done the whole time you've been here... Prop Revan up on some invincible pedastal. And you think Revan can beat anyone else simply because there's a lack of evidence on Tulak Hord, or Marka Ragnos, or even Exar Kun... I mean, you'd argue that Revan can take NJO Luke and yet you can't even tell me if Revan pees standing up or not! Come on now... talk about "lack of evidence"... we know jack shit about Revan save for Revan was a Sith lord with an assload of accomplishments. Nothing about the fighting style.... Nothing about the relation of Revan's power to anyone else save Malak. So don't preach to us about not knowing any of Ragnos' powers and how we can't make a judgment. You've done it yourself.

Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Not this song and dance again. I've already defended Ragnos' high esteem in the past. Why regurgitate it all again? Unless you can put it into some way of looking that will totally blow my mind. Like, a good example would be where Darth Windu reminded me about Dooku's perceptions of Grievious in LOE, and how GG wins when he has the advantage of surprise and terror. He took a direct piece of evidence and made an observation that made me stop and reevaluate my whole way of thinking about Grievious and even Ki-Adi-Mundi. By putting it into perspective, Darth Windu changed my mind on the issue.

But I don't see anything coming from you and Darth Frobo that even resembles that. It's all just undermining his accomplishments and discrediting him because you haven't seen anything. It would be like someone arguing that Patton was a better general than Hannibal just because you have more empiracal evidence showing Patton's tactics. No one's saying you have to utterly believe with utmost conviction that Ragnos is very powerful and very cunning... It's just really obvious to those of us who aren't on a character bashing mission.

And as for "IMO".... your opinion regarding the definition of fanboy apparently applies to whoever doesn't share your views. That's ridiculous. I suggest you stow it. I called you a fanboy because of what you're doing now, and what you've done the whole time you've been here... Prop Revan up on some invincible pedastal. And you think Revan can beat anyone else simply because there's a lack of evidence on Tulak Hord, or Marka Ragnos, or even Exar Kun... I mean, you'd argue that Revan can take NJO Luke and yet you can't even tell me if Revan pees standing up or not! Come on now... talk about "lack of evidence"... we know jack shit about Revan save for Revan was a Sith lord with an assload of accomplishments. Nothing about the fighting style.... Nothing about the relation of Revan's power to anyone else save Malak. So don't preach to us about not knowing any of Ragnos' powers and how we can't make a judgment. You've done it yourself.

Oh come on, Frobo and I have been going on for pages. Read through it all. Next, I don't care if other people have different views than mine, I respect it if they can back it up. Next, I don't put Revan on an invincible pedestal, yet you seem to with Ragnos. I just said earlier that there have been other threads where I post Revan will lose. Read through them. And yes I do also think Revan could beat NJO Luke. He isn't the god you think he is Janus, he was very nearly killed by a single Yuuzhan Vong pretending to be the supreme overlord. And like you said, Revan has an assload of accomplishments, what do you compare power on? I hope he can pee standing up, he probably can, but it doesn't matter if it's not in direct correlation to power or any way of judging it. We know WAY more about Revan than most EU characters whereas Ragnos has defeated one Sith who was probably powerful but we don't know. Woo hoo.

You blame me of calling people a fanboy when it clashes with my views? Look at you. We have posted pages of reasons questioning Ragnos' power, Nai, Illustrious, and Glentract have made some good points to SOME, but not nearly all. You've been sitting there saying Ragnos is all powerful, anyone who says otherwise is a fanboy, and I'm not gonna say why Ragnos is so good or even try to counter other's posts. How do you even pretend to think I'm a fanboy if you're not?

whats up with listing Nai and Illustrious before me? lol 😄

My problem is that instead of building up Revan's case, you attempt to drag down Ragnos through one sided banter.

For you, it's not saying what Revan does rivals Ragnos, it's always about declaring him inept. You do this by either questioning Ragnos' reign, which was unprecedented; you do this by questioning his enemies, which existed; you do this by question Simus, whom was explicitly mentioned as being the most powerful of his time and whom Ragnos defeated.

I have no problem with the fact you like Revan, it's obvious you do, but you should worry about building up Revan's credentials, not knocking down Ragnos', which are pretty much impeccable. You have to admit, whether you like to or not, Ragnos ruling a Sith Empire of thousands of force sensitive, sword wielding bad mofos who are pretty much all power hungry is impressive beyond any doubt.

You mentioned that the Sith simply wait for the Sith Lord to die before they take over. This is far from the truth: Ragnos grabbed the throne for himself. Kressh fought Sadow for it, and Sadow became the Dark Lord. Nadd is believed to have killed Sadow's spirit the moment he became strong enough, and then becomes Dark Lord. The same with Exar Kun, who destroyed Nadd's spirit the second he became powerful enough to do so.

The fact that Ragnos has not 1, but 2 individuals, in Sadow and Kressh, who pack serious power and neither of them, even together, decided to knock him off, speaks volumes about his power. Then not to mention how much Kreia touts about the ancient Siths power. There are many reasons to think Ragnos is the greatest/most powerful Sith, and not too many to think otherwise.

Build up Revan's credentials, but right now, they don't stack up to Ragnos'. Don't tear down Ragnos's credentials to build up your argument.

Here's what you and Frobo have posted, in a nutshell.

"Yeah even though he only defeated one person he must be really powerful."

This was ridiculous. To say that Ragnos only killed one person because the only kill we happen to have available to us is named is about as illogical as saying that Han Solo has only killed one Rodian in his lifetime based on what we know from ANH.

"Even though he only ruled over a couple of planets, it's not like any other Sith could possibly rule their entire lives over a couple of planets"

Oh really? So tell me... What other Sith have ruled over a couple of planets populated with Sith? Oh wait... none. Nice try.

"Even though no credible star wars site says anything about these Sith being all powerful or Ragnos being extremely powerful or even mentioning him at all sometimes they must be."
All powerful is never mentioned. Overwhelmingly power? Probably. But if your sole source of information consists of credible Star Wars sites, you shouldn't know who the hell Revan is, because he's not at Starwars.com.

"We know Kreia said that Ragnos posessed tremendous strength, both physically and in the Force"

And that didn't strike you as exceptional that she would even comment on that?

"Kreia the one who never manipulates or lies (telling Handmaiden that the Exile is dead, using the Exile for some ulterior motive to try and destroy the Force, etc.) Kreia said Ragnos had tremendous strength both physically and in the Force so Ragnos must be the most powerful being ever capable of destroying planets by blowing his nose. (Even though Kreia says Revan is power and staring at him was like staring at the heart of the Force back when he was just a Jedi padawan and he would later multiply his power several fold, and Kreia is saying this about someone she actually knew unlike Ragnos)"

What's this all about" You think a historian is going to lie or exaggerate when she's been telling you information that was true and credible since you landed on Korriban? What, you think she just randomnly lied? To what end? If you distrust Kreia so much, what she says about Revan should be equally suspect.

"It's not like Revan was powerful or anything. (Even though Wikipedia, the Free encyclopedia says that Revan is thought by many to be the most powerful Sith Lord of all time) Ragnos or any ancient Sith for that matter would easily fart and destroy Revan and everyone else of his time (1,000 years later)"

Wikipedia is a source anyone can edit, and it's never been an official credible Star Wars site, so why bother quoting it? And since when has everyone thinking Revan is the most powerful ever changed anything? Most people think Sidious and Vader are powerful compard to Revan, and yet they aren't. That changes nothing. But your post here especially is fanboyish to the extreme.

"Revan has the highest level of Battle precog, has the Will power to resist the Dark side of an entire planet that no one else (not even Kreia) could resist, controlled an enormous space station that siphoned the power of a star and killed hundreds of other Sith who tried to control it, is perhaps the greatest tactician ever, has enormously high potential, plunders all the knowledge he could from the Jedi temples, he plundered tombs, relics, artifacts, and knowledge from a planet sized Sith storehouse of knowledge, learned dozens of ways to kill or turn Jedi/Sith, fights for 6 years straight as the leader of one of the main forces in the two different wars against powerful opponents, killing Mandalore and the strongest Echani, and was considered by Kreia (Revan's mentor who could kill three Jedi council members at the same time with one use of the Force) to be the heart of the Force. Then he loses all that power and becomes a Jedi again, he plunders Korriban, including the tombs of four very powerful dark lords, gaining their artifacts, learning from Tulak's holocron, killing two tarentateks at the same time by himself when just one could easily kill a Jedi, he killed everyone in a Sith academy that he started, he killed the best bounty hunter at that time, a Sith Lord, he killed hundreds of dark Jedi and assassin droids, defeated and killed his apprentice Darth Malak at least twice in a row, and became even stronger than he was during his first reign (first paragraph). Then he recovers all his memories and knowledge from Malachor V, the Jedi temples, etc. increasing his power greatly from the second paragraph, before he goes to fight the ancient Sith empire single handedly."

Battle precognition won't save him from being destroyed from a far superior Sith. His will power isn't as big a factor in this battle as you'd imply, and his control over the Star Forge is exceptional but not something totally exclusive. That is, it has yet to be shown just how powerful one must be to control it. Jesus, just reading this reeks of fanboyism... Even I'm getting disgusted with this.

"Now I have never read anywhere that Sadow and Kressh feared him or at least as much as you say."

So just what have you read?

Here's from your friend Frobo...

"he ruled a couple planets which is less then revan did, revan defeated hundreds if not thousands of jedi so a sith magician is no big deal, as for going unchallenged it was manipulation not power."

First off, Frobo has no idea how large the Sith empire was, so he assumes it was a couple of planets. Then he says it is less than what Revan did, even though Revan didn't rule a planet in his life. He was a general, not a ruler. Second, there is no official website or canon source that says Revan even killed five jedi, let alone hundreds or thousands. And nice job of shrugging aside the victory over Simus and the fact that he held his throne for over a century in a Sith land, where the rule is the strongest rule. If Ragnos was NOT the strongest, why did he rule? Answer me that one.

"As for his long rule going "unchallenged" it's pretty easy to go unchallenged when everyone who could put up a fight to you is killing one another instead because you're a lying manipulative SOB. what shows that the fear wasn't justified is that ragnos never fought anyone himself he merely manipulated them into fighting someone else who was stronger. He's no better then sidious he fought once in his life against someone who didn't even have the force and he's hailed as a God around here, why? is it because he outsmarted some sith? is it because someone powerful was afraid of him, many people around the world are afraid of george bush not because of his skill in battle but because of the ressources at his disposal because of what he has at his back. If ragnos could manipulate the sith empire into following him then what would be the point of attacking him if he has the entire empire at his back? he could merely find out about it before hand and have said individual executed as a traitor. The sith probably weren't afraid of ragnos as much as they were of the ressources at his disposal. "

First sentence, nonsense. Second sentence, assumption. Frobo assumes just like you do that Ragnos never fought anybody. Evidence for this? None. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. There were no verified dinosaur bones until the eighteen hundreds. Does that mean there were no dinosaurs that whole time?

"As for the duels, we don't know but going by ragnos's manipulative nature he could have weaseled his way out and we also don't know the caliber of those he fought except for simus so that's pretty much null."

So here Frobo diminishes Ragnos to a weasely manipulator and not a fighter, while giving us NO evidence at all. Not even sound reasoning. Just... boom... opinion and assumption.

"Finally we come to simus. so he was powerful, the power of the force is still greater and it's called force lightning for a reason they may have used magic at the time but the force is ultimatley greater. Even considering that simus was a powerful magician how do we know if he was a great duelist or not what do we know about his saber skills...jack all so we can't really know if he was that good. Revan defeated malak who was drawing on the greatest artifact of a darkside/drawing on a sun for power"

Now, Frobo tries to discredit Simus to totally prove that Ragnos sucks. Frobo assumes that Sith magic is separate from the Force and assumes that the force is greater. Frobo assumes Simus must not be a good duellist because he is a Sith magician, even though every Sith lord -at least- from Exar Kun and before was considered a Sith magician. Frobo then goes on to make the biggest assumption of this post- that the Starforge is the greatest artifact of the darkside, which is ridiculous.

"It's been repeatedly said in this thread and in others, "Ragnos was so powerful that in a time of ancient sith lords no one dared challenge him." Many many many times it's probably been said more then anything else on this forum."

In particular, we know that Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh even together were afraid of Marka Ragnos. Even when he was dead and had no assets or armies they were afraid of him. why? His power was immense. Or, if you ask Frobo... they must be afraid because he's a weakely manipulative bastard.

By the way, where were the amazing facts and logic we were promised in your guys' posts? I must have missed those, considering I read them all.

Janus is fired up!furious

*grabs popcorn and waits for next post*

Exactly the same thing I've said before.

Maybe now that the Lord of Jawas said it, the Revan fanboys will listen.