Originally posted by Apex512
Janus is fired up!furious*grabs popcorn and waits for next post*
Hey, I was called out. Now, I wasn't gonna get involved in this because it's so controversial, but now I did. And you'd better get a big vat of popcorn, because of Frobo and Emperor come back with another round of nonsense, I'm gonna do it again. This is getting ridiculous.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Hey, I was called out. Now, I wasn't gonna get involved in this because it's so controversial, but now I did. And you'd better get a big vat of popcorn, because of Frobo and Emperor come back with another round of nonsense, I'm gonna do it again. This is getting ridiculous.
Yes, Yes, it is.
Oh, and that new sig really fits your attitude right now. That sig is like your transformation from intellect .. To absolute ranting, but I kind of like the change.
Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Sidious manipulated the entire republic and jedi order who were actually looking for a sith threat at the time to fight the only other force that would cause him any grief (the cis) as well as the jedi. What says that ragnos couldn't have done something similiar. You say that he manipulated others into fighting him yet you also say that he went unchallenged your contradicting yourself did he or did he not go unvhallenged during his reign, if he did then it was because he was a manipulative bastard because if the sith wanted him out they could have banded together with their forces and taken him, or had him assasinated, or started some form of rebellion. If Palpatine's empire was so much insanely more powerful then Ragnos's (which it was) and it went challenged by a force much smaller then it then logically one insanely powerful sith lord would try at one point or another unless he was being manipulated not to which as said before would be cowardice.
Woah....
Ragnos manipulated the other Sith Lords into fighting each other and he made them focus they attention on him. Still none of them - I don't know if somebody tried - was powerful enough to challenge him. And please:
- assasinating somebody who is nearly all powerful ? How ?
- rebellion against somebody who was feared by people powerful enought to blow up stars ?
The problem is that the only way to take the title as a dark lord is to beat the actual dark lord in a duel (force powers or sword fight). Now if no one ever tried to do so (at least no one ever did it) Ragnos must be the most powerful swordfighter and force user at the high point of the Sith empire.
And Palpatines empire was more powerful than Ragnos ? LOL !
Sorry...the Sith Empire was wealthier than the Republic. They had advanced technology and they had tons of powerful force users. See...any of the ancient Sith Lords needed an entire army of Jedi to get defeated (Sadow, Kun, Nadd) and those people were weaker than Ragnos.
Or he was challenged which shows that he wasn't that feared and was beleived that he could be beaten. Even if he did manipulate others into fighting him then he would only manipulate those weaker then he was into fighting him and as he never manipulated sadow or kresh knowing they both wanted to take on the republic that leads me to one of two conclusions
Now...all were weaker than him. See...that is the entire point. If somebody would have been stronger than Ragnos, Ragnos wouldn't have been Dark Lord for such a long time. That is how the Sith Empire worked.
1. He was weaker then they were despite them being his apprentices and he was manipulating them to keep them from fighting him.
Hell...they still feared him when he was a spirit. And they didn't even try to kill him when he was on his death bed.
2.he manipulated them to serve him because he was scared if there was a revolt of some form he'd be screwed.
Again: Civil wars against the Dark Lord were common in the Sith Empire. Duels against the Dark Lord were common. They constantly challenged each other to find out who is the strongest. That is the base of the Sith Empire. Yet...either no one ever beat Ragnos when he was alive or they were too afraid of him to try to do so...that doesn't matter. Fact is that Ragnos was the most powerful person within the Sith Empire when the Sith Empire reached it's peak. No one before him and no one after him ever reached that status
He may have manipulated a council of twenty sith lords, just because they didn't beleive they could doesn't mean they couldn't have been manipulated i.e too busy fighting each other or ragnos kept them under his control for one of the above two reasons.
Oh great. Everybody want his title and they were too busy to fight people they don't need to fight instead of fighting Rangos ? And keeping 20 (!) Sith Lords under your control ? Errr...
As for your point about the sceptre not only did you prove my point about the weakness of ragnos (even if the game was dumb it was part of eu and is considered cannon here) as he gets owned it also shows that his sceptre was the only way his apprentices could do what they did which means they're not as great as they're all made out to be here including ragnos.
W T F ?
Did we ever saw Ragnos wielding a sceptre in the god damn comics who are FAR more canon than the games ? No. And what are you talking about "his apprentices" ? He had none. That is the Sith Empire and not the post Battle of Ruusan Sith Order. Just if you don't get it.
1 Dark Lord
20 Sith Lords (guys like Sidious, Kreia and so on)
What has a sceptre that was never seen used by Ragnos, or Sadow or Kressh have to do with that thread ?
As for the duels, we don't know but going by ragnos's manipulative nature he could have weaseled his way out and we also don't know the caliber of those he fought except for simus so that's pretty much null.
LOL again. Simus was the most powerful Sith magician at the highest point of Sith magic. Get it. He is more powerful than Sadow, Nadd and even Exar Kun. And Ragnos defeated him.
Finally we come to simus. so he was powerful, the power of the force is still greater and it's called force lightning for a reason they may have used magic at the time but the force is ultimatley greater. Even considering that simus was a powerful magician how do we know if he was a great duelist or not what do we know about his saber skills...jack all so we can't really know if he was that good. Revan defeated malak who was drawing on the greatest artifact of a darkside/drawing on a sun for power.
a)
Force lightning is also called Sith Lightning so...oh my...
b)
You still seem to not know what the Sith Empire was. Really.
Imagine a place were literary everyone wants to rule as a Dark Lord. They all practice Sith Magic they all wield swords and have muscles that would make Revan look like Woody Allen compared to Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Their entire lifes are focused on force use (Sith Magic) and fighting (swordfighting) and for all we know they can live 150 years easily. So after 100 years of practicing Sith magic and sword combat you better be goddamn good. Yet Simus was the best until Ragnos showed up.
And if you still don't get it. "Sith magic" is that what people would call "dark side powers" - there is no difference between them. If you didn't know - it were dark Jedi that started the Sith empire.
And **** the Star Forge. Sadow did blow up stars. Kun and Ulic (or lets say Aleema Keto) destroyed entire SUN SYSTEMS. That makes the Star Forge look like a toy.
The only place we know anything about ragnos is force powers and he didn't have nearly the ressources Revan did and Revan learned everything possible from those ressources.
WTF ? Ragnos and the people in his times were the well of Revans knowledge. Got it ? What do you think were all that Sith knowledge Revan found came from ? Appearing out of nowhere ?
He plundered tombs that belonged to people like Ragnos himself or people that were inferior to Ragnos. He plundered Malachor V a planet where the Sith of Ragnos times did store their knowledge. Now Revan used that stuff for 3 years and the ancient Sith used it for their entire lifetimes in Ragnos case more than a century. Revan is a child (yes a child) compared to the ancient Sith Lords when it comes to "knowledge". And - just to have you finaly get it - Exar Kun might take Revan.
Now:
Ragnos (as a spirit) > Sadow + Kressh
Sadow alone (600 years post the peak of his power) > Nadd
Nadd (alive) > Exar
It's so damn obvious that Ragnos would kill Revan that I don't know why I'm even arguing here.
Originally posted by Darth Windu
Wait. . . I agree with everything there, completely, but Ragnos' Spirit was stronger than the combined powers of a living Sadow and Kressh?
Ragnos' spirit immediately after his death was at least comparable. Obviously the spirit that Jaden Korr spanked had the limitations of a weak body and 5000 years of aging. Maybe his spirit didn't age well 😛.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Woah....
Ragnos manipulated the other Sith Lords into fighting each other and he made them focus they attention on him. Still none of them - I don't know if somebody tried - was powerful enough to challenge him. And please:
- assasinating somebody who is nearly all powerful ? How ?
- rebellion against somebody who was feared by people powerful enought to blow up stars ?The problem is that the only way to take the title as a dark lord is to beat the actual dark lord in a duel (force powers or sword fight). Now if no one ever tried to do so (at least no one ever did it) Ragnos must be the most powerful swordfighter and force user at the high point of the Sith empire.
And Palpatines empire was more powerful than Ragnos ? LOL !
Sorry...the Sith Empire was wealthier than the Republic. They had advanced technology and they had tons of powerful force users. See...any of the ancient Sith Lords needed an entire army of Jedi to get defeated (Sadow, Kun, Nadd) and those people were weaker than Ragnos.Now...[b]all
were weaker than him. See...that is the entire point. If somebody would have been stronger than Ragnos, Ragnos wouldn't have been Dark Lord for such a long time. That is how the Sith Empire worked.Hell...they still feared him when he was a spirit. And they didn't even try to kill him when he was on his death bed.
Again: Civil wars against the Dark Lord were common in the Sith Empire. Duels against the Dark Lord were common. They constantly challenged each other to find out who is the strongest. That is the base of the Sith Empire. Yet...either no one ever beat Ragnos when he was alive or they were too afraid of him to try to do so...that doesn't matter. Fact is that Ragnos was the most powerful person within the Sith Empire when the Sith Empire reached it's peak. No one before him and no one after him ever reached that status
Oh great. Everybody want his title and they were too busy to fight people they don't need to fight instead of fighting Rangos ? And keeping 20 (!) Sith Lords under your control ? Errr...
W T F ?
Did we ever saw Ragnos wielding a sceptre in the god damn comics who are FAR more canon than the games ? No. And what are you talking about "his apprentices" ? He had none. That is the Sith Empire and not the post Battle of Ruusan Sith Order. Just if you don't get it.1 Dark Lord
20 Sith Lords (guys like Sidious, Kreia and so on)What has a sceptre that was never seen used by Ragnos, or Sadow or Kressh have to do with that thread ?
LOL again. Simus was the most powerful Sith magician at the highest point of Sith magic. Get it. He is more powerful than Sadow, Nadd and even Exar Kun. And Ragnos defeated him.
a)
Force lightning is also called Sith Lightning so...oh my...b)
You still seem to not know what the Sith Empire was. Really.
Imagine a place were literary everyone wants to rule as a Dark Lord. They all practice Sith Magic they all wield swords and have muscles that would make Revan look like Woody Allen compared to Arnold Schwarzenegger.Their entire lifes are focused on force use (Sith Magic) and fighting (swordfighting) and for all we know they can live 150 years easily. So after 100 years of practicing Sith magic and sword combat you better be goddamn good. Yet Simus was the best until Ragnos showed up.
And if you still don't get it. "Sith magic" is that what people would call "dark side powers" - there is no difference between them. If you didn't know - it were dark Jedi that started the Sith empire.
And **** the Star Forge. Sadow did blow up stars. Kun and Ulic (or lets say Aleema Keto) destroyed entire SUN SYSTEMS. That makes the Star Forge look like a toy.
WTF ? Ragnos and the people in his times were the well of Revans knowledge. Got it ? What do you think were all that Sith knowledge Revan found came from ? Appearing out of nowhere ?
He plundered tombs that belonged to people like Ragnos himself or people that were inferior to Ragnos. He plundered Malachor V a planet where the Sith of Ragnos times did store their knowledge. Now Revan used that stuff for 3 years and the ancient Sith used it for their entire lifetimes in Ragnos case more than a century. Revan is a child (yes a child) compared to the ancient Sith Lords when it comes to "knowledge". And - just to have you finaly get it - Exar Kun might take Revan.
Now:
Ragnos (as a spirit) > Sadow + Kressh
Sadow alone (600 years post the peak of his power) > Nadd
Nadd (alive) > ExarIt's so damn obvious that Ragnos would kill Revan that I don't know why I'm even arguing here. [/B]
Lets see, as for assuming the mantle of the dark lord, malak took out revan with a cheap shot and assumed the title of apprentice why wouldn't sadow do the same?
As far as rebellions are concerned who cares who fears him, I've just spent multiple posts explaining why that fear wasn't justified.
The sith empire under ragnos could not stack up to two death stars a sun crusher hundreds of thousands of star destroyers and millions upon millions of solidiers sorry.
About all being weaker then him, knowing that sadow and kresh both hated him, both had view points that conflicted in every way and both were the only two that had enough power to challenge him wouldn't it make sense that he deals with both of them so he has an uncontested rule in which none are able to challenge him? That's exactly what he didn't do why...because he was either afraid of them or afraid that without them if a civil war would brake out he would lose.
As for them fearing him as a spirit he was probably the first force spirit they'd seen and that would scare the hell out of you, if he wasn't remeber he spent his entire life manipulating people which probably included making himself seem more powerful then he really is, such displays of power would be useful in keeping the other sith lords in check. Just because he led didn't make him the greatest warrior.
As for keeping 20 sith lords under your control sidious controlled thousands of senators and jedi what trouble would someone have with 20 people.
As for the sceptre according to the game (which sucked blew and scared me for life) that's how they were able to blow up stars
whether or not it appeared in the comics is irrelevant truth is the games are actually overseen by lucas more then the comics are.
As for calling sadow and kresh his apprentices it's also been said a ridiculously high number of times, "Ragnos was so powerful that his apprentices could chuck stars." or, "Ragnos was so powerful he had sadow and kresh (who could throw stars) as apprentices" my sources are direct statements from ragnos supporters across all the threads he's in take it up with them.
As for simus we know he was the greatest magician and i concede the point that sith magic=force powers however being good with the force and being a good swordsman are completely different we have know clue who he fought if he fought at all and until we have more info.
As for your statement about the star forge i'll take that as a your right Frobo as you obviously weren't and probably still aren't able to come up with a more powerful darkside artifact which gives it's user as much power as the star forge did, so sadow could bend a star to his will, Revan also bent a sun to his will which he used to create an army that kicked the crap out of the republic.
As for Revans knowledge he absorbed EVERYTHING they had to offer him in terms of force power took artifacts from all the tombs that accented his power and had much more knowledge in terms of lightsaber knowledge and as Ragnos went unchallenged like you said I guess that would make him have more experience to right? Also the amount of force knowledge available to learn from for sith became greater and more extensive until you got a sith who was as powerful as plaguesis that could play god for fun so naturally Revan would have more to learn from and as he learned all of it that would give him greater knowledge.
I personally wanted to end this arguement in the first two pages because everyone knows jack all about ragnos but people still insist on continuing using this half ass info. We can end it now and save me a lot of time and effort on a thread about two fictional charachters or we can continue with the BS it's your descision.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
You're arguing because the rather rational idea that Ragnos pwns is being challenged with... ah.... nothing.
it's being argued against with everything we know about revan which has been posted probably close to 50 times across these boards and we've made several points showing that ragnos is the god he isn't made out to be next time you read a thread please try to do so with an open mind.
"As for keeping 20 Sith Lords under your control Sidious controlled thousands of Senators and Jedi what trouble would someone have with 20 people."
Yeeeah. Except that all those Jedi, all those Senators. . . . not one of them knew what he really was. They suspected nothing from him. Only Mace Windu, and Yoda, to a lesser extent, suspected something was awry of the Jedi. Ragnos was obviously known across the Empire as what he was. There were perhaps one or two people who knew Palpatine's secret.
So, when Palpatine had those Councils with Yoda, Mace, and others, if they'd known his secret, they would have killed him on the spot. Ragnos would probably have such meetings with his subjects often. this is one Sith Lord meeting with twenty other Sith, the likes of which were possibly around Dooku's or Sidious' level of power, possibly more.
Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Lets see, as for assuming the mantle of the dark lord, malak took out revan with a cheap shot and assumed the title of apprentice why wouldn't sadow do the same?
Yeah. Why wouldn't Sadow do the same. Maybe because he would even fear attacking Ragnos with a nuclear bomb because Ragnos might survive this and kick his ass over Korriban ?
The sith empire under ragnos could not stack up to two death stars a sun crusher hundreds of thousands of star destroyers and millions upon millions of solidiers sorry.
Since you still don't get it. The Sith empire contained more than "a few" planets and even if it were only a "few planets" that would be a "few" planets filled with millions of force users.
Two death stars ? What for ? Those people could destroy a death star by waving their hands. They destroyed stars (Sadow) and sun systems (Kun) using Sith magic or technology aided by Sith magic / alchemy. They would own the sh*t out off the Galactic Empire.
About all being weaker then him, knowing that sadow and kresh both hated him, both had view points that conflicted in every way and both were the only two that had enough power to challenge him wouldn't it make sense that he deals with both of them so he has an uncontested rule in which none are able to challenge him? That's exactly what he didn't do why...because he was either afraid of them or afraid that without them if a civil war would brake out he would lose.
For gods sake. Sadow and Kressh were afraid of his spirit. Got it know. They feared a confrontation with Ragnos being a spirit...ionized air particles.
As for them fearing him as a spirit he was probably the first force spirit they'd seen and that would scare the hell out of you, if he wasn't remeber he spent his entire life manipulating people which probably included making himself seem more powerful then he really is, such displays of power would be useful in keeping the other sith lords in check. Just because he led didn't make him the greatest warrior.
Ajunta Pall ran around in his tomb for 20,000 years before Ragnos reign. And please...the spirit of Freedon Nadd could kill force users 400 years after his dead. Why shouldn't Ragnos do that ?
And hell...Sadow and Kressh had the talking head of Simus lying around and giving them some advice. If you have the talking head of a dead person lying around at home would you be scared of a ghost ?
As for keeping 20 sith lords under your control sidious controlled thousands of senators and jedi what trouble would someone have with 20 people.
Sidious couldn't keep Vader under his control and Ragnos had to deal with 20 people that would made Vader look like a child.
As for the sceptre according to the game (which sucked blew and scared me for life) that's how they were able to blow up stars
whether or not it appeared in the comics is irrelevant truth is the games are actually overseen by lucas more then the comics are.
That's great. The sceptre made the people blow up stars. Sure the damn Jedi 5,000 years after Ragnos know more about him than Kreia would about Sith magicians like Kun who ran around in her lifetime.
And of course the people at Lucas Arts can give you more information on the Ancient Sith than the creators of the ancient Sith. And if you want to take games as "canon" explain Rebellion / Force Commander / Battle Fronts to me that contradict the movies every 2 minutes.
As for calling sadow and kresh his apprentices it's also been said a ridiculously high number of times, "Ragnos was so powerful that his apprentices could chuck stars." or, "Ragnos was so powerful he had sadow and kresh (who could throw stars) as apprentices" my sources are direct statements from ragnos supporters across all the threads he's in take it up with them.
Great. Sadow and Kressh were both Sith Lords (in the Council) and Ragnos reigned over them. They don't were his apprentices since there was nothing like apprentices back in that time (in terms of the one master one student rule).
As for simus we know he was the greatest magician and i concede the point that sith magic=force powers however being good with the force and being a good swordsman are completely different we have know clue who he fought if he fought at all and until we have more info.
Why can't you get it ? He had to kill dozens of people to archieve his position in the Sith priesthood. He had to kill even more people to become Dark Lord of the Sith. That is how the Sith Empire worked. Why can't you simply accept the truth.
As for your statement about the star forge i'll take that as a your right Frobo as you obviously weren't and probably still aren't able to come up with a more powerful darkside artifact which gives it's user as much power as the star forge did, so sadow could bend a star to his will, Revan also bent a sun to his will which he used to create an army that kicked the crap out of the republic.
a)
The Star Forge is just charged with Dark Side energies but it's not a dark side artifact.
b)
Revan used technology (the Star Force) to bent a sun to his will while Sadow did it with his raw power. So who is stronger now ? If Revan could do what people like Sadow could do he didn't even need to search the star force because he could have blown away planets as he liked. He could have traveled around with a single ship and conquer the republic.
As for Revans knowledge he absorbed EVERYTHING they had to offer him in terms of force power took artifacts from all the tombs that accented his power and had much more knowledge in terms of lightsaber knowledge and as Ragnos went unchallenged like you said I guess that would make him have more experience to right? Also the amount of force knowledge available to learn from for sith became greater and more extensive until you got a sith who was as powerful as plaguesis that could play god for fun so naturally Revan would have more to learn from and as he learned all of it that would give him greater knowledge.
Yeah...sure he learned the entire secrets of a 20,000 year old culture in 3 years while leading a full scale war against the republic. Sure as hell he did not nor did he knew more about Sith magic than somebody like Ragnos who practiced that stuff for 100+ years.
30-50 or more years of constant fighting with a melee weapon against other force users only > 6 years frontline experience
I personally wanted to end this arguement in the first two pages because everyone knows jack all about ragnos but people still insist on continuing using this half ass info. We can end it now and save me a lot of time and effort on a thread about two fictional charachters or we can continue with the BS it's your descision.
You lose. Case closed. 😛
About all being weaker then him, knowing that sadow and kresh both hated him, both had view points that conflicted in every way and both were the only two that had enough power to challenge him wouldn't it make sense that he deals with both of them so he has an uncontested rule in which none are able to challenge him? That's exactly what he didn't do why...because he was either afraid of them or afraid that without them if a civil war would brake out he would lose.
That's the shittiest logic I've ever seen.
Ragnos didn't challenge them because they were scared of him, they would LISTEN to what he had to say. Why dispose of two loyal followers simply because they may attempt to overthrow them; which they DIDN'T.
Why? Because Ragnos was more powerful, simple as that.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yeah. Why wouldn't Sadow do the same. Maybe because he would even fear attacking Ragnos with a nuclear bomb because Ragnos might survive this and kick his ass over Korriban ?Since you still don't get it. The Sith empire contained more than "a few" planets and even if it were only a "few planets" that would be a "few" planets filled with millions of force users.
the sh*t out off the Galactic Empire.
Two death stars ? What for ? Those people could destroy a death star by waving their hands. They destroyed stars (Sadow) and sun systems (Kun) using Sith magic or technology aided by Sith magic / alchemy. They would [b]ownFor gods sake. Sadow and Kressh were afraid of his spirit. Got it know. They feared a confrontation with Ragnos being a spirit...ionized air particles.
Ajunta Pall ran around in his tomb for 20,000 years before Ragnos reign. And please...the spirit of Freedon Nadd could kill force users 400 years after his dead. Why shouldn't Ragnos do that ?
And hell...Sadow and Kressh had the talking head of Simus lying around and giving them some advice. If you have the talking head of a dead person lying around at home would you be scared of a ghost ?Sidious couldn't keep Vader under his control and Ragnos had to deal with 20 people that would made Vader look like a child.
That's great. The sceptre made the people blow up stars. Sure the damn Jedi 5,000 years after Ragnos know more about him than Kreia would about Sith magicians like Kun who ran around in her lifetime.
And of course the people at Lucas Arts can give you more information on the Ancient Sith than the creators of the ancient Sith. And if you want to take games as "canon" explain Rebellion / Force Commander / Battle Fronts to me that contradict the movies every 2 minutes.
Great. Sadow and Kressh were both Sith Lords (in the Council) and Ragnos reigned over them. They don't were his apprentices since there was nothing like apprentices back in that time (in terms of the one master one student rule).
Why can't you get it ? He had to kill dozens of people to archieve his position in the Sith priesthood. He had to kill even more people to become Dark Lord of the Sith. That is how the Sith Empire worked. Why can't you simply accept the truth.
a)
The Star Forge is just charged with Dark Side energies but it's not a dark side artifact.b)
Revan used technology (the Star Force) to bent a sun to his will while Sadow did it with his raw power. So who is stronger now ? If Revan could do what people like Sadow could do he didn't even need to search the star force because he could have blown away planets as he liked. He could have traveled around with a single ship and conquer the republic.Yeah...sure he learned the entire secrets of a 20,000 year old culture in 3 years while leading a full scale war against the republic. Sure as hell he did not nor did he knew more about Sith magic than somebody like Ragnos who practiced that stuff for 100+ years.
30-50 or more years of constant fighting with a melee weapon against other force users only > 6 years frontline experience
You lose. Case closed. 😛 [/B]
Your entire arguement is centered around him being feared, everything else is merely heresay we don't know if he killed people other then simus I'm not saying he didn't but we simply don't know, we also don't know how powerful he really was your logic is because he was feared by powerful people that must make him powerful which is pretty crapass if you think about it.
While I may have been pwned over some minuit details I've definitley made a couple of points showing that that fear may not and maybe even probably wasn't justified.
Your first point is just plain dumb there Ragnos is mortal like everyone else there are certain things he just can't survive.
As far as the sith empire beating the galactic empire is concerned Sadow (who could throw stars) took on the republic (which was MUCH weaker then the empire trust me) and lost you'll argue that's because he was fighting with kresh as well but if he could pwn death stars so easily he should be able to take a fleet of inferior starships, he didn't now consider how powerful the empire was.
So they feared ragnos...until we have proof that fear was justified that says nothing.
As for the sceptre it's considered cannon as much as it defies common sense much like many other star wars games that's just the way it works, as for those other games they display what if scenarios not what actually happened.
As for your point about the apprentices take it up with the people who said it, I've merely quoted things ragnos supporters have said and shown them to be wrong yet somehow there's always someone to try to lecture me like I'm writing my own opinion or something, all I did was quote what other people who share the same viewpoint as you have used to support their beliefs.
Palpatine also had to control generals and politicians and the only reason he couldn't control vader because of his willpower based off an emotional bond with his son sith at that time didn't worry about love and such as you said they were to busy worrying about sword fighting and such so the emotional bond they'd need to escape ragnos manipulation as for will power um...they were his lackeys for 150 years in a culture where that's the equivelant of being a quadruple amputee hobo you think after 150 years of shame they might try to get some honour back, probably not because they were too far under his control after going unchallenged for a certain amount of time it gave him an aurora of invincibility which is why he was never challenged later, by that time he probably had manipulated them so he had such total control that they WANTED to obey him it's more then possible and has happened numerous times in sith circles.
As for your star forge point the star forge merely makes it easier for it's ruler to channel the darkside energies therin in order to create things or channel the energies of the sun to strengthen oneself. Revan channeled the darkside energies of the star forge to control the sun to make his army and malak channeled the darkside energies of the star forge to keep the jedi alive so he could drain their lifeforce.
As for your statement about sadow I've already written about the ~shudders in contempt for lucasarts~ sceptre and obviously even sadow lost to the republic with a full fleet of superior starships at his command. Furthermore Revan would have no need to blow up planets as if you remember he was trying to help the republic to the point where he never destroyed planets like malak did.
You completely ignored what I said there and listened only to the parts that you could contradict while not taking in the whole statement, what I said was the the siths knowledge of the force got greater over time unlike the jedi's and more info was added on korriban and malachor and more powerful techniques were devellopped in the two or three thousand years between them and Revan, they would not have access to such techniques being dead but Revan did as well as what they had to offer and he learned everything possible from there remeber what I've said before Revan was an insanely fast learner and the game even supports that he learned everything possible from his sources as well as having hundreds of ancient sith artifacts that bolstered his power just by him having them.
You've tried to base an entire arguement around assumptions you've made, educated guesses at best so really until you have any proof once so ever supporting Ragnos power other then guesses like, "He must have been powerful because powerful people were cared of him" or he must have been powerful because he was in charge of a lot of people." which are factless unproven assumptions attempted to be passed off as real proof. The only proof we do have of his power is that he killed simus but we have absolutley nothing showing that he was the slightest bit powerful..at all I'm not saying he wasn't but all you have are guesses and assumptions not facts nothing you have said can be proven or has any evidence once so ever backing it. all it has are assumptions based off the extremely little knowledge we have of the time, sorry Nai but the truth is as far as facts are concerned you've got next to nothing.
Originally posted by Illustrious
That's the shittiest logic I've ever seen.Ragnos didn't challenge them because they were scared of him, they would LISTEN to what he had to say. Why dispose of two loyal followers simply because they may attempt to overthrow them; which they DIDN'T.
Why? Because Ragnos was more powerful, simple as that.
Oh really then you wouldn't fare so well as a sith lord, if you have two people who beleive the complete opposite to you hate you (as far as I've been told) want to usurp power from you at any chance they get and are the only two remotley capable of defeating you as they are so insanely powerful they could throw stars it would make sense to get rid of them for two reasosns,
1. If anyone would or could oppose him it would be them so it would be smart to get rid of them, they weren't loyal they wanted him dead and if you have two people so close to you it would be smart to get rid of them so your rule goes uncontested instead of having to watch your back just in case assumning they wouldn't attack him would just leave him open to getting back-stabbed.
2.It would install a sense of fear in his followers showing that he really is the most powerful and none could challenge him and live securing his reign and rallying more supporters and loyal followers to him.
Think of the big picture.