Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Your entire arguement is centered around him being feared, everything else is merely heresay we don't know if he killed people other then simus I'm not saying he didn't but we simply don't know, we also don't know how powerful he really was your logic is because he was feared by powerful people that must make him powerful which is pretty crapass if you think about it.
You simply don't get what I want to say. Imagine something like this: You put a single person in an area with 100 other people and all of them wanted to have a trophy. To get this trophy they must defeat or kill all the others. Now the single person get the trophy - how many people had he killed to get it ?
See...that's a question to which we have no answer but it would be more logical to say that person killed more than one of the opponents in the area as long as you don't want to tell me, that a single person can stand around in some major massacre doing nothing but waiting until there's only one opponent left and then kick his ass.
Your first point is just plain dumb there Ragnos is mortal like everyone else there are certain things he just can't survive.
He survived for more than 100 years in an enviroment where you can thrust noone because everyone will kill you if he spots a weak point.
As far as the sith empire beating the galactic empire is concerned Sadow (who could throw stars) took on the republic (which was MUCH weaker then the empire trust me) and lost you'll argue that's because he was fighting with kresh as well but if he could pwn death stars so easily he should be able to take a fleet of inferior starships, he didn't now consider how powerful the empire was.
The Republic in Sadows times is pretty much not compareable to the Republic in the times of ROTS. In that times the Jedi were not "peacekeepers" but warriors. If you have a look at the comics they sended hundrets or even thousands of Jedi to kill people like Nadd or Kun.
And now...what do you think will happen if you have a fleet in a sun system and a single ship with a single person on bord flies in, the person moves his hand and makes the sun go supernova ?
As for the sceptre it's considered cannon as much as it defies common sense much like many other star wars games that's just the way it works, as for those other games they display what if scenarios not what actually happened.
Ah great. So some games are "what if scenarios" and other games are "canon" just as you like it. But just to show you that it doesn't matter how they did all that stuff.
How goddamn powerful must a single person be to create a sceptre that is powerful enough to drain the force power out of multiple places charge up an entire army of non-forces user with so much force power that they can use lightning and give people the ability to blow up stars and sun systems with it ? If this is Ragnos work he must be more powerful than the entire Rakatan species combined because that sceptre would make the star forge look like a toy.
And were the hell did they tell that the sceptre was what the ancient Sith (Sadow, Kun) used to destroy planets ? The only things that are said is that the sceptre can charge non-force users with force energy or boost the power of force users, drain the force from places, objects and force users and has the ability to bring dead people back to live again.
Palpatine also had to control generals and politicians and the only reason he couldn't control vader because of his willpower based off an emotional bond with his son sith at that time didn't worry about love and such as you said they were to busy worrying about sword fighting and such so the emotional bond they'd need to escape ragnos manipulation as for will power um...they were his lackeys for 150 years in a culture where that's the equivelant of being a quadruple amputee hobo you think after 150 years of shame they might try to get some honour back, probably not because they were too far under his control after going unchallenged for a certain amount of time it gave him an aurora of invincibility which is why he was never challenged later, by that time he probably had manipulated them so he had such total control that they WANTED to obey him it's more then possible and has happened numerous times in sith circles.
Why is it actualy easier for you to believe that somebody who his not quite powerful can manipulate 20 Sith Lords and command them around as he likes than it is to believe that they simply feared him because of his power ?
Just to create a compareable situation. Imagine the Jedi Council and have Sidious walk into it and cut Yoda's head off and after doing so manipulate the Jedi left into fighting each other or simply leave him unchallenged instead of fighting him. Pretty much not believeable except Sidious would have displayed such an amount of power that nobody else will try to challenge him.
I don't get it why you think that the more complicated and more impossible thing is the right one.
As for your star forge point the star forge merely makes it easier for it's ruler to channel the darkside energies therin in order to create things or channel the energies of the sun to strengthen oneself. Revan channeled the darkside energies of the star forge to control the sun to make his army and malak channeled the darkside energies of the star forge to keep the jedi alive so he could drain their lifeforce.
It still is channeling energies with the help of technology that is designed to channel energies. And while it requires quite some power it's still not as impressive as blowing an entire sun up with a hand movement.
As for your statement about sadow I've already written about the ~shudders in contempt for lucasarts~ sceptre and obviously even sadow lost to the republic with a full fleet of superior starships at his command. Furthermore Revan would have no need to blow up planets as if you remember he was trying to help the republic to the point where he never destroyed planets like malak did.
Now what ?
Sadow was stopped by thousands of Jedi going against him at once. Still he managed to escape by blowing a sun up and was around 600 years later to teach Freedon Nadd.
Then Nadd who was trained by Sadow but never finished his training under Sadow (so he had less knowledge then Sadow) went to Onderon and conquered the entire planet on his own armed with a short lightsaber and a blaster pistol and he destroyed nearly all beast masters on Onderon with Sith magic before he was stopped by an entire army of Jedi - but still he was able to survive in his spirit form.
Then Nadd taught Exar and again Exar didn't finish his training under Nadd, still he nearly brought the Republic to it's knees and was only stopped because of Ulics betrayal. And again they sended an entire army of Jedi knights that destroyed pretty much every living being on Yavin 4 to stop Kun but still Kun survived as a spirit for more than 4,000 years.
Now realy for knowledge: Sadow > Nadd > Kun with the fact that Sadow was < Ragnos when it came to force powers and knowledge about Sith magic.
You completely ignored what I said there and listened only to the parts that you could contradict while not taking in the whole statement, what I said was the the siths knowledge of the force got greater over time unlike the jedi's and more info was added on korriban and malachor and more powerful techniques were devellopped in the two or three thousand years between them and Revan, they would not have access to such techniques being dead but Revan did as well as what they had to offer and he learned everything possible from there remeber what I've said before Revan was an insanely fast learner and the game even supports that he learned everything possible from his sources as well as having hundreds of ancient sith artifacts that bolstered his power just by him having them.
It is clearly said that the reign of Ragnos marked the highest point of the Sith Empire including Sith magic. After this that art as well as the Sith Empire declined.
And you should listen to the history of a game when you want to argue based on that history. It's clearly said that the Sith left Korriban and Malachor V past the times of Sadow because that planets were too close to the Republic space.
So the knowledge stored on Malachor V was exactly what the Sith left there in the times of Sadow and Ragnos and nothing more. For the artifacts: Revan plundered that what people like Sadow, Ragnos, Hord and Ajunta Pall have created with their own power. Now imagine those people alive wearing their own artifacts vs Revan who doesn't have the artifacts any longer.
And please...hundrets of ancient Sith artifacts to bolster his power ? He would look like a christmastree.
You've tried to base an entire arguement around assumptions you've made, educated guesses at best so really until you have any proof once so ever supporting Ragnos power other then guesses like, "He must have been powerful because powerful people were cared of him" or he must have been powerful because he was in charge of a lot of people." which are factless unproven assumptions attempted to be passed off as real proof.
I gave you facts about the working of the Sith Empire - you deny it.
I gave you facts about the power of people that followed Ragnos - you ignore it.
And what you say (or assume) is:
In a society that is based on constant challenge and fighting in which the most powerful being always reigned, the most powerful ruler we know about must have been a coward that archieved anything only by manipulation following another ruler that was so weak that even the manipulative coward could kill him in a straight duel.
And you call that "logic" ?
ahh, you didn't respond to my post. Oh well.
Ragnos seems to have two arguments. He ruled for a century over a few planets and the entire sith empire. Sadow who didn't kill Ragnos could blow up stars.
1) This is the impressive one but everyone is putting Ragnos on a higher pedestal than he is. You keep saying everyone feared him and where do you come to that conclusion? Sadow manipulated nearly all the sith to support him in a couple days. Herego, it's not too hard and Ragnos could easily have done that. It's never been said anywhere that everyone feared him. Like I said before, they were loyal just like sith from every other time. They take orders without questions. Next, no other sith we've seen ever directly challenged their master in fair combat and won, so I don't see why Ragnos lovers say it happened on a daily basis. Ragnos had tons of supporters, they thought he was a great leader, gave him a big funeral and didn't know what the hell to do without him. Obviously they weren't going to challenge him every day. Next, Ragnos manipulated his enemies into fighting each other. If he's so powerful why would he do that?
If every single Sith hated him, Ragnos would be dead. Sadow could destroy the solar system with a wave of his hand or whatever and Ragnos would be gone. Or every Sith would just come together and try to fight him. Why didn't they? Because Ragnos was a good leader. Clearly he had many supporters and who would try and fight an army of Sith to destroy the guy who's ruled for quite a while? This is like an american deciding he wants a president that has ruled for 50 years dead. After a while, no one dares to question them. The same is true here.
Ragnos defeated Simus who we think is strong. Anyone else? No. Does that mean he fought no one ever? No, he probably fought a few in his early years before people feared to question him (because it's the same with any dictator, not the most powerful) Does that mean Ragnos fought everyone who was ever powerful? Hardly. We can't go on assumptions. Revan supporters don't go around saying he defeated the ancient Sith empire now do we? He went off to fight them single handedly, and we could easily assume he defeated them all but we don't. The same is true here.
2) Sadow could destroy stars. Could Ragnos? Possibly but he didn't. So how does that help Ragnos? If Sadow really wanted to kill Ragnos (which he didn't and I will explain in a moment) he would've gone off planet, waved his hand and destroyed the entire solar system along with Ragnos. No one could survive that. Next, Ragnos lovers love to say Sadow and Kressh feared him. Who came up with that? Sadow didn't bother to listen to Ragnos' spirit yet you say Sadow feared him? Really, where did you get that from? Sadow didn't want to kill Ragnos on his death bed because the Ragnos supporters would've killed Sadow. Instead, Naga waited until after Ragnos' death when they didn't know what the heck to do without Ragnos and he played off their confusion, easily manipulating them into declaring him the dark lord and going to war with him. A war against the Republic they lost, even with superior wealth, bizzare technology, star destroying, and a form of battle meditation, and all those super powered (or so you claim) sith lords, they lost. Yet Revan decimated the Republic and the jedi with half the forces the Republic had, and only minimal dark Jedi up against battle meditation I might add.
Speaking of Sadow, he wasn't all that impressive anyway. I'm not sure how many stars he destroyed, but the last one was unstable anyway. Destroying the stars is impressive (if of course he did it without any technology) but they had the technology to destroy stars anyway, and if technology could do it, I'd say using the Force to do it wouldn't be too hard. Kyp Durron, with very little training, maybe a month at most, pulled the sun crusher out of the core of Yavin with only minor help from Kun's spirit. He says he could've easily pulled it out of the core of a sun too. Luke can manipulate black holes, far more impressive to me. Revan and Malak can control an immense space station that's a powerful dark side artifact which requires someone really powerful to control it in order to siphon the power of a star.
Sadow couldn't even beat Kressh, and didn't defeat anyone else. Wow, and he didn't kill Ragnos so Ragnos must be bad ass.
Ragnos' spirit: Once more Ragnos lovers continually pretend that everyone feared Ragnos' spirit. Kun and Ulic did not fear Ragnos' spirit, and why would they? A spirit comes out of nowhere and claims them sith lords, why would they fear it? Sadow didn't bother to listen to Ragnos and Kressh didn't much either. Jaden Korr didn't fear Ragnos' spirit even after it was brought back to "life" so therefore it wasn't constantly weakening over 5,000 years. It was brought back with tons of Force energy capable of powering an army of non-force users into dark Jedi with multiple dark powers. Even still, Ragnos' spirit could not defeat a lone Jedi with a weapon.
Kun's spirit on the other hand, had 4,000 years to lose power since people think they get weaker over time (which doesn't make sense to me, or Kun would've been way stronger than he was) but after 4,000 years of weakening (and remember Ragnos' spirit wasn't seen again after 1,000 years past his death until it was brought back to life.) Kun's spirit destroyed a Jedi knight who fared pretty well against Luke and who had a lightsaber, Kun killed him with the Force only.
Revan destroyed the spirit of Ajunta Pall, one of the first Sith lords, and he predated Ragnos. Revan destroyed the spirit who had a sith sword, with very little of his power later on. After he did this, Malak could paralyze Revan but later on, Revan ploughs through the Star Forge, killing dozens of Sith apprentices and assassin droids with only Bastila and a non-Force user to help him, then he fights Malak's three strongest Sith, then after surving Malak's attempt to destroy Revan with the Star Forge itself (You'd think he'd be exhausted by now) Revan is even stronger than his first reign and defeats Malak (who's said to be more powerful than Sidious) TWICE IN A ROW. After that Revan regains his full memories from tons of knowledge he plundered from the Jedi, Korriban, Malachor V (a planet sized sith storehouse of knowledge) and more. And we all know how great Revan's lust for knowledge was.
On top of that, Ajunta Pall's spirit fell to the dark side, succumbing to the power of his dark sword. Revan took the sword and it didn't corrupt him. He resisted a planet that everyone else (including Kreia who could kill 3 council members with a wave of her hand) couldn't resist. Revan has immense potential, training from both sides of the Force, tons of knowledge (probably more than anyone else since he studied both sides so much), he's defeated everyone he's ever faced with ease, is a brilliant tactician, brought the galaxy to it's knees, and has the highest level of battle pre-cog which no other non-Echani ever mastered on top of his powerful connection to the Force.
As for Nai Fohl's conclusion, I don't know much about Nadd, but while Kun didn't have much training, he got a sith amulet that increased his power A LOT. After destroying Nadd's spirit, he gained a lot of knowledge from Ossus, and plenty of more Sith knowledge. I don't think we can say Nadd is stronger than Kun or Sadow is stronger than Nadd.
The conclusion: It is silly to consider Ragnos the most powerful with as little knowledge we have on him, relying on so much assumption. Ragnos must've been powerful, but we have no idea how powerful and shouldn't try to gauge his power. If we had to, it falls far short of Revan's, NJO Luke's, Exar Kun's, and Traya's.
Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Ragnos seems to have two arguments. He ruled for a century over a few planets and the entire sith empire. Sadow who didn't kill Ragnos could blow up stars.
Ragnos arguments:
- growing up in an enviroment it which civil wars and duel were common and it's everyone vs everyone with the strongest on top
- defeated the greatest Sith magician and sword fighter at the peak of the Sith Empire
- reign over hundrets of planets filled with force users for more than a century
- making people like Sadow, Kressh, Kun and Ulic listen to his spirit
1) This is the impressive one but everyone is putting Ragnos on a higher pedestal than he is. You keep saying everyone feared him and where do you come to that conclusion? Sadow manipulated nearly all the sith to support him in a couple days. Herego, it's not too hard and Ragnos could easily have done that. It's never been said anywhere that everyone feared him. Like I said before, they were loyal just like sith from every other time. They take orders without questions. Next, no other sith we've seen ever directly challenged their master in fair combat and won, so I don't see why Ragnos lovers say it happened on a daily basis. Ragnos had tons of supporters, they thought he was a great leader, gave him a big funeral and didn't know what the hell to do without him. Obviously they weren't going to challenge him every day. Next, Ragnos manipulated his enemies into fighting each other. If he's so powerful why would he do that?
a)
There were only two people powerful enough to take Ragnos place after his death: Sadow and Kressh so basicaly you had to support one of them.
b)
Sith being loyal. You must be kidding.
c)
The fact that they didn't try to defeat Ragnos or at least didn't suceed with it shows that he is either more powerful than them all and killed everybody who tried to challenge them or they feared of challenging him because he's too powerful.
If every single Sith hated him, Ragnos would be dead. Sadow could destroy the solar system with a wave of his hand or whatever and Ragnos would be gone. Or every Sith would just come together and try to fight him. Why didn't they? Because Ragnos was a good leader. Clearly he had many supporters and who would try and fight an army of Sith to destroy the guy who's ruled for quite a while? This is like an american deciding he wants a president that has ruled for 50 years dead. After a while, no one dares to question them. The same is true here.
After a while no one dares to quetion him. Great idea. How he survived that time between "becoming dark lord" and the point were "no one dares to question him" ?
Ragnos defeated Simus who we think is strong. Anyone else? No. Does that mean he fought no one ever? No, he probably fought a few in his early years before people feared to question him (because it's the same with any dictator, not the most powerful) Does that mean Ragnos fought everyone who was ever powerful? Hardly. We can't go on assumptions. Revan supporters don't go around saying he defeated the ancient Sith empire now do we? He went off to fight them single handedly, and we could easily assume he defeated them all but we don't. The same is true here.
If you see Revan sitting on the throne of the Dark Lord would you then say he defeated the Sith Empire ? Yes. Now...Ragnos was Dark Lord - draw your own conclusions. So while Ragnos supporters have the proof that Ragnos must have defeated (according to any logic) the most powerful guys running around at the peak of the Sith Empire to become the dark lord you can actually say anything against that.
2) Sadow could destroy stars. Could Ragnos? Possibly but he didn't. So how does that help Ragnos? If Sadow really wanted to kill Ragnos (which he didn't and I will explain in a moment) he would've gone off planet, waved his hand and destroyed the entire solar system along with Ragnos. No one could survive that.
Could a more powerful force user block a force attack from a less powerful one ? Now guess what would happen if Sadow would have gone off the planet, wave his hand and try to destroy the entire solar system.
Next, Ragnos lovers love to say Sadow and Kressh feared him. Who came up with that? Sadow didn't bother to listen to Ragnos' spirit yet you say Sadow feared him? Really, where did you get that from? Sadow didn't want to kill Ragnos on his death bed because the Ragnos supporters would've killed Sadow. Instead, Naga waited until after Ragnos' death when they didn't know what the heck to do without Ragnos and he played off their confusion, easily manipulating them into declaring him the dark lord and going to war with him.
Sadow was declared to the Dark Lord by Ragnos spirit. Kressh being nearly as powerful as Sadow himself never questioned that decission. At least they both listened to what Ragnos spirit said.
A war against the Republic they lost, even with superior wealth, bizzare technology, star destroying, and a form of battle meditation, and all those super powered (or so you claim) sith lords, they lost.
20 Sith Lords VS serveral thousand Jedi Knights + the entire forces of the Republic. And why should they destroy everything when they wanted to conquer something ?
Yet Revan decimated the Republic and the jedi with half the forces the Republic had, and only minimal dark Jedi up against battle meditation I might add.
Revan decimated the Republic forces after Sadow, Nadd, Kun and Ulic have challenged them with their own forces. And after the Mandalorian wars who have greatly reduced the lines of the Jedi. And please don't forget that at the same moment Bastila entered the war with her battle meditation Revan began to lose. So he didn't do well against that.
Speaking of Sadow, he wasn't all that impressive anyway. I'm not sure how many stars he destroyed, but the last one was unstable anyway. Destroying the stars is impressive (if of course he did it without any technology) but they had the technology to destroy stars anyway, and if technology could do it, I'd say using the Force to do it wouldn't be too hard. Kyp Durron, with very little training, maybe a month at most, pulled the sun crusher out of the core of Yavin with only minor help from Kun's spirit. He says he could've easily pulled it out of the core of a sun too. Luke can manipulate black holes, far more impressive to me. Revan and Malak can control an immense space station that's a powerful dark side artifact which requires someone really powerful to control it in order to siphon the power of a star.
Oh great. You must be really powerful to control the Star Forge. Based on what ? Because some dark siders that are nowhere even close to Revans powers couldn't do so ?
Sadow couldn't even beat Kressh, and didn't defeat anyone else. Wow, and he didn't kill Ragnos so Ragnos must be bad ass.
He didn't kill Kressh because Ragnos told them to stop fighting. That's like saying Exar Kun couldn't kill Ulic Quel-Droma who was defeated by Nomi Sunrider so Nomi Sunrider > Exar Kun.
Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Ragnos' spirit: Once more Ragnos lovers continually pretend that everyone feared Ragnos' spirit. Kun and Ulic did not fear Ragnos' spirit, and why would they? A spirit comes out of nowhere and claims them sith lords, why would they fear it? Sadow didn't bother to listen to Ragnos and Kressh didn't much either. Jaden Korr didn't fear Ragnos' spirit even after it was brought back to "life" so therefore it wasn't constantly weakening over 5,000 years. It was brought back with tons of Force energy capable of powering an army of non-force users into dark Jedi with multiple dark powers. Even still, Ragnos' spirit could not defeat a lone Jedi with a weapon.
Would Ulic have said something against Ragnos decission if he dared to do so ? Yes...why he did not ? Would Kressh have said something against Ragnos decission if he dared to do so ? Yes...he also did not.
Why ? You better have a good answer to that question.
And again you come up with that "charged with force energy" crap. We don't know how much force power Ragnos spirit had. We only know that Tavions body was charged with more force powers and Ragnos had control over that body. That is nothing compared to Ragnos spirit directly after his death and also nothing compared to Ragnos when he was alive and in his own body.
Kun's spirit on the other hand, had 4,000 years to lose power since people think they get weaker over time (which doesn't make sense to me, or Kun would've been way stronger than he was) but after 4,000 years of weakening (and remember Ragnos' spirit wasn't seen again after 1,000 years past his death until it was brought back to life.) Kun's spirit destroyed a Jedi knight who fared pretty well against Luke and who had a lightsaber, Kun killed him with the Force only.
How often do I have to tell you that you can't compare Kun's spirit - charged with the powers of an entire race to other Sith Lords. Damn it.
Revan destroyed the spirit of Ajunta Pall, one of the first Sith lords, and he predated Ragnos. Revan destroyed the spirit who had a sith sword, with very little of his power later on. After he did this, Malak could paralyze Revan but later on, Revan ploughs through the Star Forge, killing dozens of Sith apprentices and assassin droids with only Bastila and a non-Force user to help him, then he fights Malak's three strongest Sith, then after surving Malak's attempt to destroy Revan with the Star Forge itself (You'd think he'd be exhausted by now) Revan is even stronger than his first reign and defeats Malak (who's said to be more powerful than Sidious) TWICE IN A ROW. After that Revan regains his full memories from tons of knowledge he plundered from the Jedi, Korriban, Malachor V (a planet sized sith storehouse of knowledge) and more. And we all know how great Revan's lust for knowledge was.
Oh great... a 20,000 year old spirit that was more a Dark Jedi than a Sith Lord.
Sith apprentices and Assasins that would instantly bow down when one of the Ancient Sith would come close - not without a reason.
Droids - uber !
And then he plundered stuffed that comes from people like Ragnos and Sadow and suddenly (while learning knowledge stored over 20,000 years in 3 years) he's better than all of them.
On top of that, Ajunta Pall's spirit fell to the dark side, succumbing to the power of his dark sword. Revan took the sword and it didn't corrupt him. He resisted a planet that everyone else (including Kreia who could kill 3 council members with a wave of her hand) couldn't resist. Revan has immense potential, training from both sides of the Force, tons of knowledge (probably more than anyone else since he studied both sides so much), he's defeated everyone he's ever faced with ease, is a brilliant tactician, brought the galaxy to it's knees, and has the highest level of battle pre-cog which no other non-Echani ever mastered on top of his powerful connection to the Force.
- Revan took the sword and we don't know what happened to the sword after that. Great.
- resisting the dark side has nothing to do with how powerful you are
- he is a brilliant tactician, brought the galaxy to it's knees (with an entire army behind him) and has the highest level of "guessing what your enemy might do next". Would help him much in a duel...
As for Nai Fohl's conclusion, I don't know much about Nadd, but while Kun didn't have much training, he got a sith amulet that increased his power A LOT. After destroying Nadd's spirit, he gained a lot of knowledge from Ossus, and plenty of more Sith knowledge. I don't think we can say Nadd is stronger than Kun or Sadow is stronger than Nadd.
An amulet that belonged to some of the ancient Sith Lords before Kun found it...urm...and by the way:
- Nadd visited Korriban to plunder tombs
- Kun visited Korriban to plunder tombs
- Revan visited Korriban to plunder tombs
I just wonder how many artifacts there were as there seem to be enough to make three guys completely invincible by boosting their force powers up to nirvana. And well...imagine what the creators of that artifacts would do with that stuff.
The conclusion: It is silly to consider Ragnos the most powerful with as little knowledge we have on him, relying on so much assumption. Ragnos must've been powerful, but we have no idea how powerful and shouldn't try to gauge his power. If we had to, it falls far short of Revan's, NJO Luke's, Exar Kun's, and Traya's.
Now that is great. For all information we have Ragnos must have been more powerful than Kun. Kun is on one level with Revan and NJO Luke and all three are more powerful than Traya.
And would you please accept the fact that Ragnos was the most powerful guy at the peak of the Sith Empire what actually makes him the most powerful Sith ever no matter how long you try to argue that ?
Nai: you have made points about those that followed him and about the culture he lived in that says nothing about ragnos you're assumng because he had powerful apprentices that he was powerful, you assume that because others from his time could blow up stars he could do the same. you assume that because he lived during a time of great duelists he was one. you assume that he was god like because his followers were powerful. you assume he was a great swordsman because it's said he was strong and that he ruled. you assume that because he was in charge he was the best despite the fact no one fought him after he became dark lord on a planet with millions of insanely powerful sith. You say he was so powerful kresh and sadow both feared him yet you have yet to explain why he should be feared the way he was. You assume that because he was in charge in a society where the strongest are supposed to rule that he was the strongest, when we have no proof showing that he was only what he SHOULD be. So in short you know next to nothing about the charachter your supposed to be defending, Bravo.
Kun used a sun crusher to destroy what he did.
As for Revan if you remeber he also went to many other sith worlds from the outer rim and beyond, all with power and I'd like you to please show me where it says that the sith abandoned malachor and korriban because it was too close to republic space and it wouldn't be during ragnos or sadows time it would be well afterwards as both Ragnos and sadow died on korriban.
Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Nai: you have made points about those that followed him and about the culture he lived in that says nothing about ragnos
Haha great. The culture in that you live has no effect on you ?
you're assumng because he had powerful apprentices that he was powerful, you assume that because others from his time could blow up stars he could do the same. you assume that because he lived during a time of great duelists he was one.
I assume that he was powerful and a great duelist because he ruled over a goddamn species that only contained of powerful force users and great duelists.
you assume that he was god like because his followers were powerful. you assume he was a great swordsman because it's said he was strong and that he ruled.
I don't assume he was god, I only say he was more powerful than Sadow and anybody that followed. Than look at his muscles and listen to Kreia saying that any of the ancient Sith Lords (including Ragnos) would make people in KotoR times look like children fighting each other with toys when it comes to melee combat.
you assume that because he was in charge he was the best despite the fact no one fought him after he became dark lord on a planet with millions of insanely powerful sith. You say he was so powerful kresh and sadow both feared him yet you have yet to explain why he should be feared the way he was. You assume that because he was in charge in a society where the strongest are supposed to rule that he was the strongest, when we have no proof showing that he was only what he SHOULD be.
The fact that he was never challenged and ruled for more than a century speaks for itself.
And again: We know that the spirit of Nadd could instakill force users 400 years after he died. Ragnos being more powerful could have just done the same stuff directly after his dead. That's why people should fear his spirit.
And it's pretty much logical that in a society where the strongest is supposed to rule because everyone wants to be the ruler the strongest will rule. Actually that bears more logic than saying somebody can manipulate an entire species or at least 20 Sith Lords in not attacking him.
So in short you know next to nothing about the charachter your supposed to be defending, Bravo.
In short: You know even less, aren't able to accept facts and still try to argue with me. Think about it.
As for Revan if you remeber he also went to many other sith worlds from the outer rim and beyond, all with power and I'd like you to please show me where it says that the sith abandoned malachor and korriban because it was too close to republic space and it wouldn't be during ragnos or sadows time it would be well afterwards as both Ragnos and sadow died on korriban.
Oh...Revan went to many other Sith worlds ? Where ? He went to worlds that belonged to the Rakatan Empire to find the Star Forge.
And the Sith moved their capital from Korriban to Ziost after Sadow was killed and for all we know Sadow died on Yavin 4 and not on Korriban. Just for your information...
Let's face it. There is no argument against Ragnos.
The ONLY thing any Ragnos detractors can say is trying to throw halfass assumptions that his fear and unchallenged rule wasn't justified. They don't seem to realize that the Sith Empire was governed by the very principle of passion and power. The more passionate and powerful you were, the higher up your position in the Empire. Now obvious, it was either everyone was blinded by Ragnos' power, which seems even more unlikely and godlike, or no one was able to succeed in dethroning him, which is still on a high pedastal, but less godlike.
What you guys are attempting to do is say that Ragnos pulled a fast one on a EMPIRE of Sith warriors and dozens of Sith Lords, completely blinding them and making them fight each other, that's even MORE godlike than him sitting on his ass all day and being unchallenged. Thanks for making our argument for us.
Effectively, it would be like what Nai Fohl said. It would be like someone walking into the Jedi Council, axing yoda on the spot, and then ruling over all the Jedi who want to revenge Yoda's death; and STILL make them attack each other instead of attacking him. That is far more impressive than saying they attacked him and failed.
So really, you have no case, you have no argument. If Revan was Dark Lord of the Sith, you'd be licking his ass right now about it. Yet since Ragnos is Dark Lord of the Sith for a CENTURY at the high period of the Empire, you discount it like it was an old hat trick. You spew BS like the "Sith were loyal".
Which Sith was loyal? Simus was killed by Ragnos; Kressh wanted Sadow's ass dead; Nadd was betrayed by Kun; Kun was betrayed by Ulic.
Do you notice the lone exception? Why, it's our pleasant subject of inquiry: RAGNOS! Wow, what'd you know? You think that's coincindence?
Please, you have no case, stop making it harder by throwing nimrod assumptions around.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Haha great. The culture in that you live has no effect on you ?I assume that he was powerful and a great duelist because he [b]ruled
over a goddamn species that only contained of powerful force users and great duelists.I don't assume he was god, I only say he was more powerful than Sadow and anybody that followed. Than look at his muscles and listen to Kreia saying that any of the ancient Sith Lords (including Ragnos) would make people in KotoR times look like children fighting each other with toys when it comes to melee combat.
The fact that he was never challenged and ruled for more than a century speaks for itself.
And again: We know that the spirit of Nadd could instakill force users 400 years after he died. Ragnos being more powerful could have just done the same stuff directly after his dead. That's why people should fear his spirit.
And it's pretty much logical that in a society where the strongest is supposed to rule because everyone wants to be the ruler the strongest will rule. Actually that bears more logic than saying somebody can manipulate an entire species or at least 20 Sith Lords in not attacking him.In short: You know even less, aren't able to accept facts and still try to argue with me. Think about it.
Oh...Revan went to many other Sith worlds ? Where ? He went to worlds that belonged to the Rakatan Empire to find the Star Forge.
And the Sith moved their capital from Korriban to Ziost after Sadow was killed and for all we know Sadow died on Yavin 4 and not on Korriban. Just for your information... [/B]
For your first point my culture affects me it doesn't determine who I am
So because he ruled powerful duelists your saying he was one, if you've ever seen king of the hill dale gribble is the president of the gun club a club filled with accurate shooters in which the best is supposed to be president yet he isn't the best shooter. There are many lietenants who lead platoons of solidiers who are inferior to the men under their command.
You assume he was more powerful when you have no proof except that he was in charge and for what kreia says how many different occasions did she lie to and manipulate the exile, and her statement was about tulak hord and his skill with a saber not the sith in general and as tulak hord was after ragnos and sadow possibly even nadd that means that the sith still occupied korriban well into the future.
The fact he went unchallenged means almost nothing as we have absolutley nothing showing if that fear was justified or if he wasn't just manipulating them, I'm not saying that's the case but your nonetheless making an assumption based on um...nothing.
how do we know how powerful he was or if he was more powerful then nadd...we don't, don't assume he is.
So because he ruled powerful duelists your saying he was one, if you've ever seen king of the hill dale gribble is the president of the gun club a club filled with accurate shooters in which the best is supposed to be president yet he isn't the best shooter. There are many lietenants who lead platoons of solidiers who are inferior to the men under their command.
Those are crap examples. Now, if it was a gun club of twisted and greeder dark siders where they KILL each other to get the president spot, it would be accurate. If the Dark Lord is not competent, he would get axed, Ragnos wasn't axed, it's a simple syllogism.
You assume he was more powerful when you have no proof except that he was in charge and for what kreia says how many different occasions did she lie to and manipulate the exile, and her statement was about tulak hord and his skill with a saber not the sith in general and as tulak hord was after ragnos and sadow possibly even nadd that means that the sith still occupied korriban well into the future.
We have plenty of truth in that you must be powerful to beat Simus, you must be powerful to control Sadow and Kressh, and you must be powerful to have influence as a spirit.
If someone who's only kill was against Yoda, wouldn't that show them as at least pretty powerful? Now imagine if that someone ruled for a century in a society where people constantly challenge for the Dark Lord position, wouldn't they need to be pretty powerful to sustain it?
It's common logic, it doesn't require a genius. You're attempting to undermine his accomplishments because it fits your argument, because what you DON'T KNOW is proof of what didn't happen. Like Janus said, absence of proof is not proof of absence.
I can undermine every thing Revan did. Revan's control of the Star Forge has been done by Rakatans before, and it isn't all that singular of an ability. Revan's attack on the Republic was successful because it was already softened up by the previous attacks by Sadow, Nadd, and Kun, etc. etc.
It doesn't do you ANY good to soften the other side, you hav eno case against Ragnos, it is that simple.
how do we know how powerful he was or if he was more powerful then nadd...we don't, don't assume he is.
I suggest you read the post. There's a different between speculation and deduction as far as assumption goes.
You're speculating, he's deducing. I'll leave it at that.
Illustrious:
Maybe Ragnos pulling a fast one may show an incredible skill at manipulation but it also shows that he's a coward and his combat skills aren't what they're made out to be here so if you want us to beleive that thank you for proving my point, I don't give a damn how good a manipulator he was I give a damn about his combat skills which if the scenario you just mentioned is true aren't that great.
About Revan, I have a page owrth of reasons for him and accomplishments of his, you'd be lucky if you could make an average sized paragraph about what ragnos has done and you simply could not make a complete snetance based on facts about his power. Please stop with the half ass assumptions.
If you want to see my case I will gladly give you links to where I've written down revans accomplishments and abilities that just so happen to be facts unlike this "Ragnos must be able to throw stars because sadow could and ragnos was in charge of sadow" garbage.
About Revan, I have a page owrth of reasons for him and accomplishments of his, you'd be lucky if you could make an average sized paragraph about what ragnos has done and you simply could not make a complete snetance based on facts about his power. Please stop with the half ass assumptions.
You're doing the same thing. You're taking achievements, none of which are as impressive as ruling the Sith Empire for a century, and then you're trying to correlate that into power. With what? assumptions.
Does stealing Ajunta Pall's sword mean he's greater than Ajunta Pall? Maybe, but it's not conclusive, you're assuming he is. Does plundering the tombs mean he's stronger than the Sith Lords? Hardly, but again, you're assuming he is.
The real garbage is "Ragnos didn't do anything because we don't KNOW that he did anything", that's crap. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. It's that simple.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Those are crap examples. Now, if it was a gun club of twisted and greeder dark siders where they KILL each other to get the president spot, it would be accurate. If the Dark Lord is not competent, he would get axed, Ragnos wasn't axed, it's a simple syllogism.We have plenty of truth in that you must be powerful to beat Simus, you must be powerful to control Sadow and Kressh, and you must be powerful to have influence as a spirit.
If someone who's only kill was against Yoda, wouldn't that show them as at least pretty powerful? Now imagine if that someone ruled for a century in a society where people constantly challenge for the Dark Lord position, wouldn't they need to be pretty powerful to sustain it?
It's common logic, it doesn't require a genius. You're attempting to undermine his accomplishments because it fits your argument, because what you DON'T KNOW is proof of what didn't happen. Like Janus said, absence of proof is not proof of absence.
I can undermine every thing Revan did. Revan's control of the Star Forge has been done by Rakatans before, and it isn't all that singular of an ability. Revan's attack on the Republic was successful because it was already softened up by the previous attacks by Sadow, Nadd, and Kun, etc. etc.
It doesn't do you ANY good to soften the other side, you hav eno case against Ragnos, it is that simple.
I suggest you read the post. There's a different between speculation and deduction as far as assumption goes.
You're speculating, he's deducing. I'll leave it at that.
Those examples show people in postitions of power postitions that others desperatley want which is exactly the case with Ragnos.
Do we know Simus is powerful? I'm not saying he's not but name one person he killed. Name one offensive power he had. do you even know what he looked like? Before you hail him as a God except for keeping his head alive in a jar (which I've seen nothing about) what's he done? do you know if he fought his way to the top or assasinated his superiors in their sleep a la sidious? How impressive was Simus the truth is we don't know you guys are basically saying,"because we don't know he must be really really strong because of that one thing he did that way it supports our arguement" then get mad at me when I bring up the possibility that for all we know he could have sucked. hypocrites.
Ragnos either went unchallenged or didn't make up your bloody minds, if he didn't then it's not to hard to sustain such a postition.
I go re-read my bloody post about the assumptions all I say is that we don't know, when you assume that he's powerful it's fine but when I assume the contrary you've got a problem with it please stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth like this, all you have are assumptions and guesses the only facts you have go as follows:
Ragnos was a sith who killed simus and ruled other powerful sith. what do we know about simus, nothing so don't assume he's that great if you don't know just like I won't assume he's garbage until I see some proof. he ruled other powerful sith did he deserve that rule, once again nobody knows so lets not make assumptions. That leaves us with thats right...NOTHING. so we'll take this nothing and now compare it to pages full of reasons supporting Revan.
you say you can undermine everything Revans done well here it goes for ragnos,
ragnos was a sith lord😖o were hundreds of others
Ragnos killed a sith magician:do you know how many people have killed sith even powerful ones it's an insanely long list.
Ragnos ruled powerful sith;good for him that doesn't mean he was one
Now try contradicting these things about Revan
Revan had the highest level of battle pre-cog out of anybody ever which means no one exceeded his level of pre-cog.
Revan learned multiple PLANETS worth of info on the sith more then anyone ever.
Revan is deemed to be THE GREATEST strategist ever right up there with thrawn.
Revan resisted Malachor v's tempation without completely cutting himself off from the force he was the only one to do so.
there's many more but i'm anxious to see what you wrote when i wrote this.