Originally posted by leonidas
<<First as regards to the breaking of the armour making him more powerful the scan proves nothing. All it shows is that he became more dangerous as he became an energy being which as everyone in the scan says is bad because he is no longer a physical being who could be blugeoned to death. It is mere speculation on your part that he became more powerful and as such this point is invalid.>>no more invalid than your opinion that he DIDN'T become more powerful. i'm inclined to believe my opinion of course, because reed says he has evolved (ie- PROGRESSED, GROWN) into this final form.
<<given Magnetos past battles with the Xmen where he has been able to inhibit Xaviers telepathy through such energies as well id say its a fair bet that Thanos could do the same. That is all within reason.>>
he was MORE than either combined.
<<As you've admitted you dont believe Onslaught could win by assaulting Thanos' mind.>.
i said he MIGHT not be able to assault him mentally. but thanos is not completely invulnerable to mental attacks - just very very resistant to them.
<<Their abilities were not Onslaughts abilities im afraid.>>
through his power he made their power his own. what difference does it make if he originally HAD the ability? i'm discussing onslaught as we saw him in the books. not what he 'might have been', not exactly how he was born, but the power level he displayed in the books. now it's you who's making an assumption on what onslaught was or wasn't capable of. by the end of the battle, did he or did he not have reality altering power? yes. did he create a sun? yes. did he wield power that thanos could not? it is certainly debateable.
if he simply was x and mags i'd be inclined to believe you. he was more though. and lord s clarified that thor WAS able to do some damage, yes, but it changes nothing about what i said earlier - thor ALONE was able to do nothing. it wasn't until the crack had ALREADY appeared in the armor, and then had been WIDENED by the combined efforts of several heroes, that thor was able to do anything. on his own, his power was exactly as ineffectual as i said it was. (btw, never mind the issue # lord s - xmen 336. found it.)
the watcher himself claims that onslaught is a NEW lifeform as far above mutants as mutants are above man. he is an ultimately powerful telepath, with control over the electromagnetic spectrum and the ability to alter and shape reality. on his own, thanos is a bionically enhanced eternal with powerful destructive blasts and superstrength.
All of Thanos' reality altering/warping feats were achieved when he was in posession of Franklin Richards. It was not under his own power. It is speculation on your part to say that he could the same things under his own power. He was merely siphoning hi spower while hew as in posession of him. Onslaught as far as was shown by the comics was a synthesis of Xavier and Magneto.
The point about Thor was that he did some damage with a single blow, therefore Thor hurting Thanos with Mjolnir isnt a negative point against Thanos in this battle. Thor causing a crack in the armour which the others later took advantage of is hardly ineffectual. I could turn around and say Thor hurting Thanos a bit in a battlke that was otherwise clearly dominated by Thanos was ineffectual.
Onslaught is a powerful mutant derived entity whose own abilities were those of Magneto and Xaviers.
Thanos is an eternal who thanks to Death cannot die, He wields immense cosmic power, psionic power , matter manipulation power, class 100 strength and has a history of defeating beings far beyond either him or Onslaught in terms of power. Kosmos for example.
<<I could turn around and say Thor hurting Thanos a bit in a battlke that was otherwise clearly dominated by Thanos was ineffectual.>>
you got it backwards, gs, thor didn't open the crack, he took advantage of the opening joseph and cable started and sue and the others widened.
and matter manipulation is an earth eternal trait, not a titan eternal trait. thanos can manipulate energy for destructive blasts, not manipulate matter/reality. as for his telepathy, that is very fuzz and any comments on the extent of it would be pure speculation. he is not invulnerable to mental attack though and it is at least debateable if onslaught could affect him that way.
<<All of Thanos' reality altering/warping feats were achieved when he was in posession of Franklin Richards. It was not under his own power. It is speculation on your part to say that he could the same things under his own power. He was merely siphoning hi spower while hew as in posession of him. Onslaught as far as was shown by the comics was a synthesis of Xavier and Magneto.>>
true - long ago i said his powers were unclear and so it was hard to build a case for him, but your opinions are equally speculatory regarding thanos being able to crack his armor and affect onslaught's energy form, as well as surmising what onslaught was/wasn't capable of in his highest shown form.
and you're right - onslaught was 'derived' from x and mags. but the synthesis made him greater than either alone. what he did when he gained life demonstrates that, and the power he amassed by the end rivalled thanos's power.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<I could turn around and say Thor hurting Thanos a bit in a battlke that was otherwise clearly dominated by Thanos was ineffectual.>>you got it backwards, gs, thor didn't open the crack, he took advantage of the opening joseph and cable started and sue and the others widened.
and matter manipulation is an earth eternal trait, not a titan eternal trait. thanos can manipulate energy for destructive blasts, not manipulate matter/reality. as for his telepathy, that is very fuzz and any comments on the extent of it would be pure speculation. he is not invulnerable to mental attack though and it is at least debateable if onslaught could affect him that way.
<<All of Thanos' reality altering/warping feats were achieved when he was in posession of Franklin Richards. It was not under his own power. It is speculation on your part to say that he could the same things under his own power. He was merely siphoning hi spower while hew as in posession of him. Onslaught as far as was shown by the comics was a synthesis of Xavier and Magneto.>>
true - long ago i said his powers were unclear and so it was hard to build a case for him, but your opinions are equally speculatory regarding thanos being able to crack his armor and affect onslaught's energy form, as well as surmising what onslaught was/wasn't capable of in his highest shown form.
and you're right - onslaught was 'derived' from x and mags. but the synthesis made him greater than either alone. what he did when he gained life demonstrates that, and the power he amassed by the end rivalled thanos's power.
Well if Joseph and Cable can crack Onslaughts armour then Thanos could do it no problem. If Invisible Woman and Thor could go on to rip it open then Thanos could do the same. Thats common sense. Thanos' strength is enough to wrestle and hold his own with Skyfather level beings and its enough to beat and dominate a fight with multiple class 100 powerhouses. That strength when augmented psionically and cosmically could feasibly destroy Onslaughts armour during the course of a battle if just Cable and Joseph with a surge of energy can put cracks in it.
Before Onslaught captured Frankin he didnt posess reality warping capability. He held him so he could tap into that power. Its speculation on your part that he magically posessed power over reality after evolving into a psionic form. Whereas my thoughts on the matter stand to reason.
You cant say the power he gained at the end rivalled Thanos' power because you dont know exactly what power he had in his final form. All of his greatest feats were achieved through the powers of others . What we do know for definite about him is that he was a synthesis of Mags and Prof X. That combination certainly doesnt rival Thanos.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I'll admit that I don't know much about Onslaught...but wouldn't the fact that it took that many people to beat him make him the clear winner?How would Thanos fare in the same cirscumtances against the same opponents?
What you need to comprehend is the fact that Onslaught never fought those heroes en masse. He erected a shield and held them back while he planned his next move. When the heroes managed to get through the shield Hulk battered Onslaught and shattered his armour. Magneto on his own has done a similar thing against the Xmen and Avengers,as has Exodus. Without the use of teh powers of Franklin Richards his greatest feats were not that far beyond a mega powerful mutant.
Thanos has fought directly against Kosmos (the former beyonder) and won. He has defeated many of agalactus' heralds and he has engaged directly multiple class 100 powerhouses singlehandedly such as Hulk Drax and Thor and tossed them aside. Onslaught got busted up by the Hulk.
<<All of his greatest feats were achieved through the powers of others . What we do know for definite about him is that he was a synthesis of Mags and Prof X. That combination certainly doesnt rival Thanos.>>
what we know for sure is he was a new, advanced lifeform. we know for sure he was derived from x and mags, and that's all. he MUST have been more though, just look at his strength. and i'm almost certain they only cracked the armor because onslaught was foolish and let them see prof x inside him, thus leaving himself open. that bit IS slightly unclear though. and you keep saying he didn't battle them all en masse. he did on a number of occasions across several issues.
you accuse me of speculating but reed himself says onslaught is untouchable, and the watcher calls him a new lifeform. he demonstrated power beyond x and mags in his strength, then i accuse you of speculating on whether thanos is stronger than onslaught (or hulk who broke the armor) or whether his bolts would affect his energy form.
i'll maintain my opinion that onslaught as was seen in the books is a rival in thanos's class. i'll likely not change your mind, and the obverse is also true.
i'm good with calling it a draw, and letting others read what we've said and deciding on their own.
good debate.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<All of his greatest feats were achieved through the powers of others . What we do know for definite about him is that he was a synthesis of Mags and Prof X. That combination certainly doesnt rival Thanos.>>what we know for sure is he was a new, advanced lifeform. we know for sure he was derived from x and mags, and that's all. he MUST have been more though, just look at his strength. and i'm almost certain they only cracked the armor because onslaught was foolish and let them see prof x inside him, thus leaving himself open. that bit IS slightly unclear though. and you keep saying he didn't battle them all en masse. he did on a number of occasions across several issues.
you accuse me of speculating but reed himself says onslaught is untouchable, and the watcher calls him a new lifeform. he demonstrated power beyond x and mags in his strength, then i accuse you of speculating on whether thanos is stronger than onslaught (or hulk who broke the armor) or whether his bolts would affect his energy form.
i'll maintain my opinion that onslaught as was seen in the books is a rival in thanos's class. i'll likely not change your mind, and the obverse is also true.
i'm good with calling it a draw, and letting others read what we've said and deciding on their own.
good debate.
Its really late in the U.K so i'll counter this properly in the morning. As to your point on how strong he was,tahts down to Magnetos powers. Magneto could endow himself with class 100 strength using his abilitys. He once lifted a 300, 000 ton ship hundreds of feet in the air with his powers. When he uses his powers for physical strength he's a powerhouse.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What you need to comprehend is the fact that Onslaught never fought those heroes en masse. He erected a shield and held them back while he planned his next move. When the heroes managed to get through the shield Hulk battered Onslaught and shattered his armour. Magneto on his own has done a similar thing against the Xmen and Avengers,as has Exodus. Without the use of teh powers of Franklin Richards his greatest feats were not that far beyond a mega powerful mutant.Thanos has fought directly against Kosmos (the former beyonder) and won. He has defeated many of agalactus' heralds and he has engaged directly multiple class 100 powerhouses singlehandedly such as Hulk Drax and Thor and tossed them aside. Onslaught got busted up by the Hulk.
Hmm... interesting. It still sounds like he was fighting them en masse storm. He held all of them back for a while? Thats still impressive if both Hulk and Thor were there. Thats a lot of diverse power to contain, if even for a while.
I think the point that he could hold off 30+ heroes was impressive.
Has Thanos ever done it before? Could Thantos force shield hold off such a beating?
I still think Thanos has a chance, he's bloody devious. Kind of like a cosmic batman. With prep he can win anyone.
In raw power, I give it to onslaught though.
Originally posted by GalacticStormAnd what exactly is his 'own power'?
under his own power
You seem to think that Onslaught's own power is just an amalgamation of Xavier and Magneto, when in fact his own power was constantly evolving.
The Onslaught entitly itself was merely a little demon-lookin creature growing inside the chest of Magneto.
He was a being that made himself by siphoning the powers of others...and any powers he siphoned, fully or partially, have to be considered as his own. He didn't need any host to survive by the time he totally drained them. He was slowly taking over Franklin, and had he been given more time, he would have totally drained him and tossed him aside. By partially draining Franklin, he was able to create a second sun...and I consider that as being 'under his own power'.