after fighting juggs, his strength would be even higher and his healing factor will have increased. if hulk blows up the hulkbuster armor, why do you think tony'll finish him in the regular armor? and remember, i'm talk oure slugfest. im MAY have enough additional powers to beat hulk (like supes and glads may have) but in a pure brawl, im would be a welcome rest after juggs.
"how did you arrive at the notion that his rage has a limit? where is it written (you said you read it) that emotions are finite concepts"
I said it was stated by Hulk itself. Written during PAD`s first run. Thats in the comics. Real life? Thats another matter that doesnt apply in comics. If you want to discuss real life, then in my opinion humanity isent a limitess concept. While Hulk`s strenght derives from a non human source, his emotions are still very human.
"ha. klattu was some mile tall space giant/god. onslaught was wielding reality warping power and no one else present, including thor, could even get NEAR him. hulk held his own for a long while and was ko'd by the energy burst resulting from the explosion of the armor. onslaught himself did not ko hulk. he's beat abom enough times not to bother refuting that. apoc was holding him but that's it - it was never a fight. the droid is just stupid and in sw he also held up a friggin mountain range."
Neverthless Hulk has his share of slugfests losts with strenght only. Even recently. Thats nothing to be ashamed of. Hercules did, Superman did, Thor did, Surfer did, Gladiator did. Getting stronger than other heroes of the - top tier - doesnt translate not being able to be defeated with strenght in return.
"they were still present and i doubt the 3 you mentioned would have beaten him without the others when ironman wonderman namor and hercules couldn't put him down earlier. to say they might have but for samson's interference, would be speculation. maybe they would have, but maybe not"
Only the 3 wer figthing back in the end. The other four at the beginning, didnt team together. Well Iron Man and Wonder Man did. Herc and Namor didnt. Herc stalemated that short round. About Samsons interfearnce, note that Hercules and Hulk wer showed still figthing when he came in and none was having the upperhand.
"superman says dd is getting weaker? i'll need to check that. all through the fight he got faster and stronger and i KNOW supes said that"
You might be confusing with Supes saying something on the lines of : " We`ve been figthing all the day long and hes still strong like he was ". That was in the middle chapters. In the last chapter, before Supes dies he breaks one of DD`s bones and says that finally the monster is getting hurt.
"original strength? huh? you talking about hulk annual 8?"
Dont recall the issue. Sasquatch had two powerlevels completly different so far. When Byrne was on Alpha Flight, he was Hulks level. He even helps Hulk beating Wendigo during that period. Some time after Byrne left the title they made it cannon that Sas was that strong because he was "possesed" or incarnated, by one of the great beasts. That had that amazing strenght. So Sasquatchs level was depowered to Thing`s level. Recently in infinite crusade, he stated that Thing has an edge over him in strenght.
"hulk left the fight because he had the answer he wanted - he was stronger than thor, even though thor wanted to go on. if you don't think hulk won that fight, you'd better read it again. bloodlusted hulk WOULDN'T have stopped and would have killed thor"
I had that fight. Hulk was afraid of the hammer. And while i am in the agrenment that he becomes stronger than others of the top tier, that difference in fights isent huge, heaps and bounds. Thor was bloodied, but wasent down. Hulk punched him quite often in the end asking himself why Thor wouldnt stay down and was also frustated. That implies that at full while there is a difference its not enought to "trash" other high top level heroes like you said. And lets not forget while that example shows Hulk having the upperhand, theres another also without the hammer where Thor stalemates Hulk over an hour in a contest of strenght. With rage increase working for the green.
<<I said it was stated by Hulk itself. Written during PAD`s first run.>>
stan lee overrules all. and david wrecked hulk imho. he also did the writing where marko totalled the ridiculous prof hulk. thanos himself is dubious in regards to battling hulk. that in itself speaks volumes.
<<Thats nothing to be ashamed of. Hercules did, Superman did, Thor did, Surfer did, Gladiator did. Getting stronger than other heroes of the - top tier - doesnt translate not being able to be defeated with strenght in return.>>
ashamed?? of the losses you mentioned? klattu would ko any of these guys. using magic thor has been able to beat hulk. using votes supes has. hulk punked glads and herc has never been able to do anything better than a stalemate. the list of heroes or villains who have beaten hulk in simple 1on1 brawls in practically nonexistent. yet hulk has scored victories over almost everyone - including 'top tier' heroes and very few have scored any kind of decisive victory over him.
<<You might be confusing with Supes saying something on the lines of : " We`ve been figthing all the day long and hes still strong like he was ". That was in the middle chapters. In the last chapter, before Supes dies he breaks one of DD`s bones and says that finally the monster is getting hurt.>>
nope. supes distinctly says that dd is hitting him harder. still not sure of the context regrading what you say supes said. haven't checked.
<<When Byrne was on Alpha Flight, he was Hulks level. He even helps Hulk beating Wendigo during that period.>.
i hope not because help saved sas's arse in that fight - he was about to be slaughtered then intelligent hulk showed up and put a pounding wendigo faring FAR better than sas did. at the end, they did team up, but even langkowski himself recalls the beating hulk gave him and wonders if even HULK is strong enough to beat wendigo. clearly sas wasn't, nor was he shown to be near hulk-level.
<<I had that fight. Hulk was afraid of the hammer.>>
hulk wasn't 'afraid' of the hammer. he said that's why he never finished thor off. and he was right. hulk pummeled him at the end, and had thor tossed the hammer away again, hulk would have finished him.
<<That implies that at full while there is a difference its not enought to "trash" other top level heroes like you said.>>
don't recall saying he would 'trash' any top tier hero. but why do you suggest he was at 'full'? his blows weren't rocking the city around him like they were when he fought onslaught, so clearly he wasn't as strong as he could get. he even peacefully declined continuing the fight because he knew (and readers did, which was why the issue caused a great controversy at the time) finally who truly was the stronger. thor has heart - that's been amply shown a hundred times - but all his experience and knowledge would not let him win that fight. he needs his hammer and his magic, like ss needs power cosmic. the other fight is an ages old fight, and the more recent showing should be the one to look at. bottom line - no one uses just strength to ko hulk - or very next to nobody. whatever 'tier' they're in.
Re: Hulk in the gauntlet!
Originally posted by Ethereal
(Note: In every progressing match The Hulk will get angrier, so yah yah strength increases etc)0: Sasquatch
1: Hercules
2: Wonderwoman w/o magical weaponry
3: Namor -Fresh out of water-
4: Thor w/o mjolnir
5: Gladiator( confidence varies)
6: Drax
7: Classic Juggernaut
8: Ironman w/ hulk buster armor
9: Spiked Thing & Ultimate Collosus
10: Angry Superman
11: Doomsday
The hulk already beat all the guys of the list in the past and it would be much easier for him to fight them in a gauntlet since his strenght would increase more and more.....no chance for his opponents if his power increases with his strenght
at level 11 DD would last 2 blows against this enraged hulk
"stan lee overrules all. and david wrecked hulk imho. he also did the writing where marko totalled the ridiculous prof hulk. thanos himself is dubious in regards to battling hulk. that in itself speaks volumes"
Nonsense. His opinion is valid like any other writer. David like it or not is The modern Hulk writer. That was saw printed. Its there. Also lets not get carried away, the Marvel Lee wrote isent the same now. Other characters wer created, the universe changed. Its cannon and apllies.
Not to mention there was nothing that Lee wrote that suggested Hulks emotions being limitess, otherwise David wouldnt had used that approach.
"ashamed?? of the losses you mentioned? klattu would ko any of these guys. using magic thor has been able to beat hulk."
Correct. Thor using magic has beat him. Without it has either stalemated him or had Hulk have the upperhand. Hulk never decisely beat him or trashed him like you said in your first post. Want a recent example of Thor winning due to magic and until then stalemating Hulk in strenght? Last hero standing #5.
"using votes supes has"
I dont count those. The ones that werent voted, they wer matched. Both having - again- uppherhands at different times. The only difference is if Supes uses all his powers Hulk will never win a majority.
" punked glads "
If he just had punked him would be ok. A slugfest its his game. However that story has a bad taste by the fact Hulk finished him for the win using a weakness he never knew until then and didnt had the intlect to ever figured out.
"herc has never been able to do anything better than a stalemate"
Hulk has never been able to do anything better than a stalemate. Same thing.
"the list of heroes or villains who have beaten hulk in simple 1on1 brawls in practically nonexistent"
Bullocks. Graviton owned him like everyone else. Ultron broke his leg. Enchantress killed him once. Abomination beat him once. Thanos beated him twice. Namor beat him twice, Apocalypse restrained him once. Black Bolt won every single fight aganst Hulk. Surfer beat him also. Just because (and i know its true) some people tend to underrate Hulk because of his "limited powerset" doesnt mean you should overrate Hulk in return. He has his shair of loses like everyone else.
"nope. supes distinctly says that dd is hitting him harder. still not sure of the context regrading what you say supes said. haven't checked."
Last chapter. After he breaks one of his bones, something that until that point he was unable of.
"i hope not because help saved sas's arse in that fight - he was about to be slaughtered then intelligent hulk showed up and put a pounding wendigo faring FAR better than sas did. at the end, they did team up, but even langkowski himself recalls the beating hulk gave him and wonders if even HULK is strong enough to beat wendigo. clearly sas wasn't, nor was he shown to be near hulk-level."
Even with his original strenght level, Sasquatch was never a vicious figther. In that fight he evens states how he notices Hulk enjoys it (even intelligent) and says back that he doesnt enjoy it. The point is none alone could beat Wendigo. Wich by the way was the second time Hulk needed help. Remember the first fight with Wolverine?
"hulk wasn't 'afraid' of the hammer. he said that's why he never finished thor off. and he was right. hulk pummeled him at the end, and had thor tossed the hammer away again, hulk would have finished him"
He wasent afraid? Thats why he resorted to grabbing a victim and treated to kill her, to make Thor take the hammer away so the fight could be more a evenly one? Wich was the point. Without the hammer Thor doesnt have the - advantage-. Without Mjolnir theres no edge. Its the same as Captain Marvel and Superman. With magic Marvel has the advantage/edge over Supes. Without it theyr evenly matched. Thats means either can win.
"his blows weren't rocking the city around him like they were when he fought onslaught, so clearly he wasn't as strong as he could get"
He didnt fought Onslaught in a city. Not that i recall. And theyr fight wasent trashing the city? Really? No buildings went down? No train was wrecked? No walking park was destroyed? No supermarkets? The people werent running to save theyr lives? Nothing?
And as a nitpick. Both Thor and hulk destroyed Onslaught armour in that saga.
"he even peacefully declined continuing the fight because he knew (and readers did, which was why the issue caused a great controversy at the time) finally who truly was the stronger"
See the post above the last one.
<<Its cannon and apllies.>>
so is lee's opinion. choose your cannon. i'll choose lee everytime.
<<Hulk never decisely beat him>>
that beating in 385 was completely decisive. why do you think so many were pissed. absolutely it was decisive.
<<Bullocks. Graviton owned him like everyone else. Ultron broke his leg. Enchantress killed him once. Abomination beat him once. Thanos beated him twice. Namor beat him twice, Apocalypse restrained him once. Black Bolt won every single fight aganst Hulk. Surfer beat him also. Just because (and i know its true) some people tend to underrate Hulk because of his "limited powerset" doesnt mean you should overrate Hulk in return. He has his shair of loses like everyone else.>>
not one opf those except abom have beaten him in a slugfest. namor did as well - underwater. as i said - almost nonexistent.
<<Even with his original strenght level, Sasquatch was never a vicious figther. In that fight he evens states how he notices Hulk enjoys it (even intelligent) and says back that he doesnt enjoy it. The point is none alone could beat Wendigo. Wich by the way was the second time Hulk needed help. Remember the first fight with Wolverine?>>
all irrelevent - you said he wa sin hulk's class. he wasn't and never was.
<<Wich was the point. Without the hammer Thor doesnt have the - advantage-. Without Mjolnir theres no edge. Its the same as Captain Marvel and Superman. With magic Marvel has the advantage/edge over Supes. Without it theyr evenly matched. Thats means either can win.>>
afraid? you must be kidding. maestro hulk fought him forever with that hammer, and there were many other opportunities. supes and marvel are not equals with or without magic. with magic thor can win - without hulk wins.
<<And as a nitpick. Both Thor and hulk destroyed Onslaught armour in that saga. >>
no they didn't. thor took advantage of a crack created by others. hulk demolished in to his own. and read the battle again - their fight was monstrous and the effects were awesome.
you're not changing my opinion, apparently i'm not changing yours. though i'm not sure what yours is.
"so is lee's opinion. choose your cannon. i'll choose lee everytime"
Wich doesnt matter since Lee never wrote Hulk with limitess emotions. Have any Lee statemnet that proves Hulks emotions being limitess? Yes, no.
In the end, its cannon, didnt took anything back of what Lee wrote and its recent. Thats all one needs to know.
"that beating in 385 was completely decisive. why do you think so many were pissed. absolutely it was decisive. "
Doesnt interest me if many wer pissed. The fight shows and was written as Thor having always an advantage due to the hammer and without it having to resort to a more even match. When they wer destroying the city ( something you said they didnt ) Thor wasent fighting with the hammer. In the end Thor was more bruised. Yes. And Hulk was frustated because Thor without the hammer still wouldnt stay down.
It was an even match with the upperhand for Hulk. Theres others where Thor did the same and slighty better even. And others worse.
"all irrelevent - you said he wa sin hulk's class. he wasn't and never was."
He was in his original strenght level. He isent at present continuity. I already discussed both levels.
"not one opf those except abom have beaten him in a slugfest. namor did as well - underwater. as i said - almost nonexistent."
Abom, Apoc, Namor, Black bolt, Hulk Killer Humanoid, The villain of the recent Marvel team up, another one that impressioned all Marvels heroes and had Thor, Colossus and Hulk between others going against him and they all lost. (wich Silver surfer won in the end).
Almost nonexistent would be if he only lost twice. Like Warlock for example. Or even less like Black Bolt.
"afraid? you must be kidding. maestro hulk fought him forever with that hammer, and there were many other opportunities. supes and marvel are not equals with or without magic. with magic thor can win - without hulk wins. "
Your probably running out of arguments. What has Maestro to do with regular Hulk. Yes, afraid. He made a hostage and treated to kill her so Thot trew the hammer away. Thats fear.
Supes and Marvel are equals. Always wer since pre crisis. About Superman admiting that Marvel with magic has the upperhand, you have one example in Superman/Batman #4.
"no they didn't. thor took advantage of a crack created by others. hulk demolished in to his own. and read the battle again - their fight was monstrous and the effects were awesome"
Read your own words first. You said no other was able to open his armour. Thats what Thor did, a crack isent an open armour is it?
About the effects, you didnt read me saying they didnt had any. What you read me answering was your quibble, about that fight that you say Thor lost (even when he was standing up until the end) didnt producced any damage. And i asnwered back.
If both happened in a city its irrevelant. I only replied that i didnt recalled the Onslaught fight with Hulk being in a city. And then my opinion against yours about the other that actually happened in that envyorment.
Btw. Onslaught its another that won a slugfest against Hulk.
"you're not changing my opinion, apparently i'm not changing yours. though i'm not sure what yours is."
Not overrating Hulk too much for a start.
People here seem to think that the Hulk's strength is activated by rage alone - If you knew anything about what the Hulk's psyche is actually based on, it has at times been referred to as child like or the "ID" - the fear of losing or being shown not to be the strongest would more than adequatley "amp" the Hulk's strength to untold degree's. This argument of "but his rage is not limitless" is meaningless when you consider we are talking about a person with SEVERE mental disorders, who has so much repressed emotion he has at least 10 potential different incarnates of the Hulk.
I'm afraid raw emotion is one asset the Hulk will NEVER fall short on - whether it be rage, fear, jealousy, resentment etc.
"People here seem to think that the Hulk's strength is activated by rage alone "
No. But the idea the comics give are that its the rage that - increases it to levels above - .
Gamma radiation and a specific pshyche created the Hulk and the limitess strenght " dimension" he carries inside him.
The means to get there are however with rage. Thats why you have some versions weaker like Joe fixit and others stronger like Mindless.
"Then you have potential versions like the Devil Hulk (said to possibly be the most powerful incarnation) who would not solely rely on rage/anger for power increase"
Wich so far we saw practically nothing.
Hulk being intelligent or not isent the issue. He can be intelligent and increase his strength with rage. Savage Hulk already did this before. Right after the fight against Wendigo with the help of Sasquatch way back.
On the other hand you have the Professor who was intelligent but didnt had the rage increase. What happened then? He was a pure class 100 brick guy without means of going higher.
"No. But the idea the comics give are that its the rage that - increases it to levels above - ."
Not neccessary - The Hulk does not rely soley on rage for strength increase although it is by far the most potent factor. Like I have already stated there are MANY other emotions that could easily lead to a strength increase. The fact if the Hulk would know that his current strength level is not enough to overcome a particular foe would be enough to trigger an increase.
The fact that he actually believes (always again due to the "ID" factor) himself to be the strongest means any obstacle he faces will eventually be overcome.
Most fighters gradually tire throughout a battle - the Hulk is one of the few who actually gets stronger and stronger throughout.
Originally posted by Grammaton
"No. But the idea the comics give are that its the rage that - increases it to levels above - ."Not neccessary - The Hulk does not rely soley on rage for strength increase although it is by far the most potent factor. Like I have already stated there are MANY other emotions that could easily lead to a strength increase. The fact if the Hulk would know that his current strength level is not enough to overcome a particular foe would be enough to trigger an increase.
The fact that he actually believes (always again due to the "ID" factor) himself to be the strongest means any obstacle he faces will eventually be overcome.
Most fighters gradually tire throughout a battle - the Hulk is one of the few who actually gets stronger and stronger throughout.
"Not neccessary - The Hulk does not rely soley on rage for strength increase although it is by far the most potent factor. Like I have already stated there are MANY other emotions that could easily lead to a strength increase"
Not sure i agree totally. He uses rage to do it, that has been showed and stated. He doesnt increase his strenght with emotions of a different nature than anger for high levels (thats what im discussing here). Because small increases like adreline boosts, everyone has.
But rage allows him not just an adreline boost. Thats the gig. The angrier he gets the stronger he becomes. I particullary dont feel fear or jealously increases him. Unless they go towards the rage aspect/nature.
And with that we practically get back to where we started.
"Most fighters gradually tire throughout a battle - the Hulk is one of the few who actually gets stronger and stronger throughout."
Most definatly, thats one of the things that makes him formidable. There are only a few others i never saw getting tired. Immortal Herc and Classic Juggernaut. Of the top tier of course, above its another matter.
"hulk gets stronger but he does also tire"
No. If Hulk has the powerset that allows him to use the rage increase factor everything on him increases in the same proportion.
Originally posted by leonidas
in a pure brawl, hulk's strength will continually increase until he is stronger than anyone. that as stated by marvel and stan lee. all these opponents with 2 exceptions have finite strength. hulk RARELY loses in slugfests - usually stalemates in short fights. it took about a dozen avengers to actually ko hulk. who knocked hulk cold with 3 punches?hulk would eventually beat all of these opponents in a brawl except doomsday who can increase his own strength to match hulk's - as he was becoming stronger to battle superman. the other one who might match him by increasing strength would be drax WITH the power gem. he too would have a limitless well of strength to draw on. these would likely stalemate hulk. the gem i suppose COULD grant drax greater strength than even hulk could reach, but since hulk's strength defies physical limitations (as stated by stan lee himself) im not sure about that.
glads and supes COULD beat him, but it would require brains and use of powers other than their strength. they would lose in pure brawls as would the others.
juggs is another question. i think theoretically hulk's strength could grow to the point where it would surpass cytorrak's influence, but that's just speculation.
hulk has crushed sasquatch and thor w/o his hammer in the past. fights against herc have been inconclusive but given time hulk would become too strong and take him.
hulk truly is 'the strongest one there is!'
Drax doesn't need power gem to have infite strength like hulk he to can get stronger.
Power gem is over kill.
Drax is dumb, but he was strong enough to k.o champion with one hit ( with power gem)