The Official BLEACH series Thread

Started by Demonic Phoenix524 pages

Originally posted by dadudemon
Mayuri only directs his "evil" at things of science and discovery in support of Soul Society. Sure, he's allowed side-projects, but he doesn't do experiements on anything that were not enemies of Soul Society.

Examples:

Hollows - Apex evil to SS.

Quincy - Relegated to evil and destroyed by SS.

So, really, he's not that evil: he's just a Nazi scientist given permission to do his expirements on the enemies of the state.

Also, you're right: Kubo will probably take a dump on everything he writes because he's a mediocre story writer.

He turned some of his subordinates into bombs, in the hopes of capturing Orihime and Uryu.

Sure, it was to capture people who were perceived to be enemies to SS, but he still has a callous disregard for life.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He turned some of his subordinates into bombs, in the hopes of capturing Orihime and Uryu.

Sure, it was to capture people who were perceived to be enemies to SS, but he still has a callous disregard for life.

That was allowable by SS, though, in an effort to stop the "bad guys" that invaded. They are expected to each give their life for SS while protecting it. Mayuri just sped up the process.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Mayuri only directs his "evil" at things of science and discovery in support of Soul Society. Sure, he's allowed side-projects, but he doesn't do experiements on anything that were not enemies of Soul Society.

Examples:

Hollows - Apex evil to SS.

Quincy - Relegated to evil and destroyed by SS.

So, really, he's not that evil: he's just a Nazi scientist given permission to do his expirements on the enemies of the state.

Also, you're right: Kubo will probably take a dump on everything he writes because he's a mediocre story writer.

Only a lot of what Mayuri does is explicitly not for the good of SS, but rather "Because I felt like it." There is also no proof they allowed much of his monstrous behavior.

He follows the Hojo scientific method.

Also, stop saying SS, it makes me think of Nazi Germany and it leads to the inevitable comparison of Mayuri to Mengele. 😐

But yes, Mayuri experimented and tortured the Quincies, only for his research to... Well it didn't really lead to anything. He just kind of did it for the sake of seeing what would happen. He of course then shows Uryu a photo of grandad's decapitated head and shit, taunting him about it. Keep in mind that he explicitly arranged the deaths of the Quincies to study them. Oh, and when he exploded his subordinates... One of them was explicitly alive, surviving. He then blew him up again, because "A bomb isn't supposed to come back." That's cold-hearted and pointlessly cruel. Speaking of which, how about dat Nemu? Specifically, how about the way Mayuri beat the living shit out of her and abused her? Dat abusing your daughter son.

Now, IS it possible that Soul Society knew about all this, and allowed, nay, supported Mayuri in doing this shit? Sure it is. But if it is, Aizen being the good guy and Soul Society being the villains is not as far-fetched as it seems...

That and he was probably thrown into prison for a good reason.

Originally posted by NemeBro
There is also no proof they allowed much of his monstrous behavior.

That's incorrect.

The proof is the fact that he hasn't been thrown back in prison despite his actions.

That is "monstrously" obvious.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, stop saying SS, it makes me think of Nazi Germany and it leads to the inevitable comparison of Mayuri to Mengele. 😐

1. No.
2. And why is that a propblem of comparions? I've already made that comparison (not to the person, but to the general scientific community of Nazi Germany.)

Originally posted by NemeBro
But yes, Mayuri experimented and tortured the Quincies, only for his research to... Well it didn't really lead to anything. He just kind of did it for the sake of seeing what would happen. He of course then shows Uryu a photo of grandad's decapitated head and shit, taunting him about it. Keep in mind that he explicitly arranged the deaths of the Quincies to study them. Oh, and when he exploded his subordinates... One of them was explicitly alive, surviving. He then blew him up again, because "A bomb isn't supposed to come back." That's cold-hearted and pointlessly cruel. Speaking of which, how about dat Nemu? Specifically, how about the way Mayuri beat the living shit out of her and abused her? Dat abusing your daughter son.

No one will find out about the bombing of an alive subordinate. No harm done, there. 🙂

Beating his own artificial creation which he can easily rebuild, right?

WEEEEEE!

Originally posted by NemeBro
Now, IS it possible that Soul Society knew about all this, and allowed, nay, supported Mayuri in doing this shit? Sure it is. But if it is, Aizen being the good guy and Soul Society being the villains is not as far-fetched as it seems...

Mayuri does not support the overthrow of SS. He serves and takes orders. There's obvious leeway in how SS is run compared to the way you think it should be run. For example, squad 11 does promotions by fights to the death. 😐 So what if Mayuri treats his subordinates like canon fodder (in almost a literal sense.) What are they going to do...complain to Captain Yamamoto? So what if he experiements on various creatures? The research is not "hidden" or used to fight against SS.

He has a disregard for life...but SS does not care.

Dadudeman stop being a troll. You know damn well he's a viscous monster who tortures and murders pretty much everyone he meets.

Also you assume Soul Society knows about all the shit he pulls. They're not big brother you know.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dadudeman stop being a troll. You know damn well he's a viscous monster who tortures and murders pretty much everyone he meets.

That's not true. He does that to hardly anyone/anything.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also you assume Soul Society knows about all the shit he pulls. They're not big brother you know.

I do not assume that. In fact, I specifically discussed how they didn't know about something (him finishing the job of his subordinates).

I'm ready for my "seconds." 313

That's not true. He does that to hardly anyone/anything.

Not for lack of trying. He goes after Ishida and Orihime, plans to go after Ichigo, killed his subordinates, brutilises Nemu, kills Sazyel, tortured and genocided the Quincies. The only two people he hasn't gone after who he's conversed with is Urahara and Byakuya.

I do not assume that. In fact, I specifically discussed how they didn't know about something (him finishing the job of his subordinates).

'There's obvious leeway in how SS is run compared to the way you think it should be run....... The research is not "hidden" or used to fight against SS.'

Sounds like it to me.

I'm ready for my "seconds."

RJ, stop hacking DDM's account you asseater.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not for lack of trying. He goes after Ishida and Orihime, plans to go after Ichigo, killed his subordinates, brutilises Nemu, kills Sazyel, tortured and genocided the Quincies. The only two people he hasn't gone after who he's conversed with is Urahara and Byakuya.

He did think about dissecting Byakuya though

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not for lack of trying. He goes after Ishida and Orihime, plans to go after Ichigo, killed his subordinates, brutilises Nemu, kills Sazyel, tortured and genocided the Quincies. The only two people he hasn't gone after who he's conversed with is Urahara and Byakuya.

Ishida is a young Quincy with extraordinary ability and has some abilities that he's never seen.

Orhime is supremely unique.

Killing Sazyel is not even remotely a problem.

Nemu can obviously be repaired/fixed and her "autonomy" is questionable.

The Quincies were declared war against by SS because they did not "save" the souls with soul burials and refused to give it up even after SS begged them to cut it out. At that point, it was all out war and he was more the free to experiement on them.

The only people has HASN'T gone after is just about every last damn person ever. In fact, he made it quite clear that he has no use for specimens that are "duplicates" of previous specimens as he would gain not scientific value from researching them. He changed his mind about Ishida because of how pwnsome Ishida was.

More to the point...there was no way you could make a legitimate reply to what I said but you did anyway. You bored?

Originally posted by Nephthys
'There's obvious leeway in how SS is run compared to the way you think it should be run....... The research is not "hidden" or used to fight against SS.'

Sounds like it to me.

That doesn't even make sense in the context that you are using. That's an apples to orange misquote.

Let's recap:

I said that SS obviously does not care about some of this more ugly actions and they are aware of his research. The ony thing that can be argued that was hidden is his killing of his subordinates to capture the "bad guys."

There are probably other things hidden that he does but soul society IS like big brother. Have you seen the monitoring operations they can pull? Fact is...I've already acknowledged that SS cannot see everything he does but I've also made it quite clear that it's impossible for them NOT to know how harsh he can be in the pursuit of science when they have locked him up and just about every example of his brutality has a poop-load of witnesses.

At this point, I've covered just about any point that can be brought up so thoroughly that I should only have to requote myself from now on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
RJ, stop hacking DDM's account you asseater.

You didn't offer any kind of legit rebuttal to anything I've stated. This is why I said, "I'm ready for my seconds" because I knew you could not deliver anything of significant "pwnage' to the post I made.

Edit - Before we too off-track, I fully agree that Mayuri is a freak. He's just not the same type of evil as "typical" evil. He doesn't have no regard for life...the opposite: he finds creatures fascinating. He just thinks of life as research subjects and something to be learned. He still takes orders and he still operates mostly within SS's rules. We don't know all of their rules but SS definitely has a different set of rules than, say....Japan.

Ishida is a young Quincy with extraordinary ability and has some abilities that he's never seen.

Orhime is supremely unique.

So? Does that make him not a monster for trying to cut them open, torture them and 'study' them purely for his own amusement? No, of course not.

Nemu can obviously be repaired/fixed and her "autonomy" is questionable.

Piss off. By that logic you can justify battering your spouse by saying 'oh he/she'll heal anyway.' He's still beating the shit out of her and torturing her.

The Quincies were declared war against by SS because they did not "save" the souls with soul burials and refused to give it up even after SS begged them to cut it out. At that point, it was all out war and he was more the free to experiement on them.

No he isn't. He's free to stop them. But you can't justify needless torture and mutilation just because they're an enemy.

And you missed out the living bombs he used as well has that guy Nemebro pointed out that he mercilessly murdered.

More to the point...there was no way you could make a legitimate reply to what I said but you did anyway. You bored?

I could ask you the same question. Why the hell are you defending the actions of a murderous sociopath and trying to argue that he isn't morally culperable when he clearly is.


I said that SS obviously does not care about some of this more ugly actions and they are aware of his research. The ony thing that can be argued that was hidden is his killing of his subordinates to capture the "bad guys."

Actually you've failed to provide any evidence that they're aware of his actions beyond 'if they cared about it they'd have put him back in prison.' Which is stupid.

There are probably other things hidden that he does but soul society IS like big brother. Have you seen the monitoring operations they can pull?

Remind me.

Fact is...I've already acknowledged that SS cannot see everything he does but I've also made it quite clear that it's impossible for them NOT to know how harsh he can be in the pursuit of science when they have locked him up and just about every example of his brutality has a poop-load of witnesses.

No not really. In fact you havn't made jack shit clear. Also, I can't think of a single witness beyond Ishida. Even his own subordinates didn't know what a monster he is.

At this point, I've covered just about any point that can be brought up so thoroughly that I should only have to requote myself from now on.

Also you saying he isn't 'evil' and then comparing him to Mengele is fvcking hilarious. Leave the thread in shame RJ, head hung low.

'The few Quincies left alive were watched by Shinigami. I had to bribe the Shinigami so they'd be late on rescuing them.'

Yup. Sounds like they allowed him to just do what he wanted with them.

Yup. 'Rescue them.' Sounds like they were at war with them.

'Forced one to burn his own son to death.'

Yup. Sounds like he was performing perfectly legitimate experiments on them.

Remind me again how I can't possibly deliver any pwnage to you. 🙄

Originally posted by Nephthys
So? Does that make him not a monster for trying to cut them open, torture them and 'study' them purely for his own amusement? No, of course not.

No, it doesn't make him a monster because:

Originally posted by dadudemon
he doesn't do experiements on anything that were not enemies of Soul Society.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Piss off. By that logic you can justify battering your spouse by saying 'oh he/she'll heal anyway.' He's still beating the shit out of her and torturing her.

No you.

Originally posted by dadudemon
her "autonomy" is questionable.

Meaning, how much rights she has as a citizen in Soul Society considering she's entirely artificial, is questionable. Considering on SS treated the artificial souls (Kon), my point is not even close to being baseless.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he isn't. He's free to stop them. But you can't justify needless torture and mutilation [b]just because they're an enemy. [/B]

Wrong: it was all out genocide against the Quincy. It wasn't to "stop" them as the Shinigami had tried for hundreds of years with diplomacy and then gave up when the balance was so thrown out of wack that the Shinigami had not choice but to literally commit genocide against the Quincy. Go back and read chapters 45 and 46, if you need a refresher (no, I did not look that up. I'm am that awesome in that I remember some chapters that awesome information in them. 🙂 )

And, why is it "needless torture and mutilation"?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you missed out the living bombs he used as well has that guy Nemebro pointed out that he mercilessly murdered.

No, you missed the replies.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That was allowable by SS, though, in an effort to stop the "bad guys" that invaded. They are expected to each give their life for SS while protecting it. Mayuri just sped up the process. The "invaders" were considered supreme threats to SS, at the time.
Originally posted by dadudemon
So what if Mayuri treats his subordinates like canon fodder (in almost a literal sense.) What are they going to do...complain to Captain Yamamoto?
Originally posted by dadudemon
No one will find out about the bombing of an alive subordinate. No harm done, there. 🙂
Originally posted by Nephthys
I could ask you the same question. Why the hell are you defending the actions of a murderous sociopath and trying to argue that he isn't morally culperable when he clearly is.

Wrong. I am clearly not in support of his methods as I've pointed out, already. He's just not this "supremely evil force" that others made him out to be ESPECIALLY in context of his own universe.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually you've failed to provide any evidence that they're aware of his actions beyond 'if they cared about it they'd have put him back in prison.' Which is stupid.

Wrong, this:

Originally posted by dadudemon
At this point, I've covered just about any point that can be brought up so thoroughly that I should only have to requote myself from now on.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Remind me.

Uhhh, how about definitely "no". 😬 If someone else is willing to waste their time looking up chapters, they can. But it's fairly common knowledge how "big brother" Soul Society is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No not really. In fact you havn't made jack shit clear. Also, I can't think of a single witness beyond Ishida. Even his own subordinates didn't know what a monster he is.

Is that why they feared him? Is that also why Kenpachi's subordinates fear him except for his top agents? awesome

Clearly, there's a different set of rules for the Gotei 13 captains and their subordinates.

Additionally, captains have almost complete control over their subordinates to such an extent as to murder them for their own reasons. When Mayuri was going to basically...kill Ikkaku for his not revealing information on the invaders, Zaraki stops him with a something like "when did you get authority over my squad?"

It's quite obvious that the killing of his subordinates to capture/kill the invaders is a non-issue for SS.

However, the ONE thing I don't see as being kosher to the 43 or the Captain Commander is his killing of one of his alive squad members after he used them as "suicide" bombers.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Also you saying he isn't 'evil' and then comparing him to Mengele is fvcking hilarious. Leave the thread in shame RJ, head hung low.

😆 😆

Anyway, my "smart" retort to that is something like this:

O rly? So now we defining characters with unproven moral absolutes instead of moral relativism (to be specific, the in-universe morals based on Soul Society's acceptable behaviors), right?

HOOORAY FOR BLIND SOCIOLOGICAL ASSESSMENTS!!!! awesome

Originally posted by Nephthys
'The few Quincies left alive were watched by Shinigami. I had to bribe the Shinigami so they'd be late on rescuing them.'

Yup. Sounds like they allowed him to just do what he wanted with them.

Yup. 'Rescue them.' Sounds like they were at war with them.

'Forced one to burn his own son to death.'

Yup. Sounds like he was performing perfectly legitimate experiments on them.

Remind me again how I can't possibly deliver any pwnage to you. 🙄


That's obviously a translation error because the Shinigami were NOT rescuing the Quincy, they were wiping them out. There is a pronoun mix-up in the translation or your interpretation is off. It could be that the translation is meaning he had to bribe the Shinigami that were supposed wipe out the Quincy rescue force...leaving a section of the Quincy alive.

That makes much more sense in the context of the war since they were literally being wiped out to restore balance.

Also, burning one's own son alive is no different than a scientist injecting rat siblings with psychoactive drugs to see if they will commit fratricide against each other. You have to think about it more from a "mad scientist" perspective than these moral absolutes you hold as inexorable.

And, yeah, you wasted your time and delivered 0 pwnage, thus far. I was bored, so you at least helped pass the time. 👆

No, it doesn't make him a monster because:

That still makes him a monster dumbass. If I raped Hitler I would still be a rapist. Actually thats a bad example. If I was a soldier and captured a Taliban soldier and then proceeded to torture and kill him, soley for my own amusement I would still be a monster. Thers nothing you can say that will change that.

No you.

For an encore, why not take a shit on your keyboard and smear it around abit. Keep up some consistency, ya know?

Meaning, how much rights she has as a citizen in Soul Society considering she's entirely artificial, is questionable. Considering on SS treated the artificial souls (Kon), my point is not even close to being baseless.

I don't give a shit about her legal rights. She feels pain, he inflicts pain upon her. End of discussion.

Wrong: it was all out genocide against the Quincy.

Nope.

And, why is it "needless torture and mutilation"?

😐

'Forced one to burn his own son to death.'

No, you missed the replies.

1. Proof it was allowable by SS?

2. Why can't they?

3. How does that not make him a monster? Just because they don't see it doesn't stop it from happenning.

Wrong. I am clearly not in support of his methods as I've pointed out, already. He's just not this "supremely evil force" that others made him out to be ESPECIALLY in context of his own universe.

He's easily the most evil person in the manga. At least Hollows are naturally inclined to evil. They're kinda like animals who attack humans. He's just a fvcking lunatic though.

Wrong, this:

Show me this 'proof.' This invisible eidence of yours.

Uhhh, how about definitely "no". 😬 If someone else is willing to waste their time looking up chapters, they can. But it's fairly common knowledge how "big brother" Soul Society is.

I don't need to look up your evidence for you asshat. If you cannot provide it, then I'll assume you were lying.

O rly? So now we defining characters with unproven moral absolutes instead of moral relativism (to be specific, the in-universe morals based on Soul Society's acceptable behaviors), right?

Claims of moral relativism are the whine of a dying argument. Try and justify his brutality to me in moral terms why don't you. By any human viewpoint his actions are monstrous and apprehensible.

I don't give a shit about fvcking Soul Societies rules. That place is a hell hole. By our rules he is.

HOOORAY FOR BLIND SOCIOLOGICAL ASSESSMENTS!!!!

Anyone who tries to claim Mengele isn't evil is either psychotic, trolling (which I strongly suspect youre doing) or just a fvcking idiot.

That's obviously a translation error because the Shinigami were NOT rescuing the Quincy, they were wiping them out.

Not so.

He mentions that the Quincy were a dying breed and that he had to bribe the shinigami in order to get at them. Clearly this is after the 'war' had ended and the Quincy as he and Ishida both say were merely being watched so that they wouldn't go back to killing Hollows. Its consistent with the facts.

It could be that the translation is meaning he had to bribe the Shinigami that were supposed wipe out the Quincy rescue force...leaving a section of the Quincy alive.

I sincerely doubt they've mistranslated 'kill' as 'rescue.' 😐

Also, burning one's own son alive is no different than a scientist injecting rat siblings with psychoactive drugs to see if they will commit fratricide against each other. You have to think about it more from a "mad scientist" perspective than these moral absolutes you hold as inexorable.

/argument.

Up yours troll.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's obviously a translation error

😆

The Quincy Genocide happened 200 years prior to the start of the series so they weren't likely still killing them at this point. Besides, SS is perfectly fine with letting Ishida live, so the desire to wipe them out seems gone. Oh and by rescue them, he of course means from Hollows. Cause that's the Shinigami job and what not. He bribed them to be late so he could have a new specimen.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
😆

The Quincy Genocide happened 200 years prior to the start of the series so they weren't likely still killing them at this point. Besides, SS is perfectly fine with letting Ishida live, so the desire to wipe them out seems gone. Oh and by rescue them, he of course means from Hollows. Cause that's the Shinigami job and what not. He bribed them to be late so he could have a new specimen.

Good points.

The only Quincy's left were so few in number that, before Ishida, we only know of two: his father and grandfather. It seems that there was quite the genocide. And SS did not see Ishida as a threat because he's not nearly enough to throw the balance off that was going to destroy both worlds.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That still makes him a monster dumbass. If I raped Hitler I would still be a rapist. Actually thats a bad example. If I was a soldier and captured a Taliban soldier and then proceeded to torture and kill him, [b]soley for my own amusement I would still be a monster. Thers nothing you can say that will change that.[/B]

You did not address what I posted.

And there's nothing you can say that will change the things I've posted, either: you are stuck in your own world of how you think things should be. No matter what you say, Mayori is not the most evil character in Bleach. He's not even that evil.

Originally posted by Nephthys

For an encore, why not take a shit on your keyboard and smear it around abit. Keep up some consistency, ya know?

I was just responding with just as much of a good post as yours because I had already covered the point but you still raged at me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't give a shit about her legal rights. She feels pain, he inflicts pain upon her. End of discussion.

You should because what SS thinks is actually what you should be addressing...not your own quite subjective view of how things should work. Unless, of course, you'd like to re-write Bleach? Injecting horses with lethal amounts of drugs and having little men ride them and beat them is considered "acceptable" by American society so I fail to see how a second class, artificial, spirit being who is subject to the rule of her captain up to and including death, is some how this monstrous evil you are trying to create from your own world of norms.

She is insubordinate, he can beat her and even kill her. He is reigns almost supreme over his squad. Additionally, she's an artificial creation and her "legal" status is questionable in SS.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nope.

Yup

Considering that after those 200 years, there were literally only 2 left, that's a very successful genocide. That's more thorough than any human genocide in history. What about their campaign was NOT a systematic destruction of their people or culture?

Originally posted by Nephthys
😐

'Forced one to burn his own son to death.'

So you don't have a legitimate answer? Cool.

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. Proof it was allowable by SS?

2. Why can't they?

3. How does that not make him a monster? Just because they don't see it doesn't stop it from happenning.

1. Provided it already.

2. You just asked the same question I did with a slightly different take. What would happen when #1 exists?

3. Proof that if the Captain Commander had seen that or if the Central 46 knew about that, he'd be in trouble for being a "monster"?

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's easily the most evil person in the manga. At least Hollows are naturally inclined to evil. They're kinda like animals who attack humans. He's just a fvcking lunatic though.

By which definition? Your own? Yeah, that's worthless in this discussion.

By SS's? That's what they originally thought but they seem to like him for about 100 years, now. He's also subordinate.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Show me this 'proof.' This invisible eidence of yours.

It looks like you quoted the wrong section because this type of request for that portion of text does not properly apply.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't need to look up your evidence for you asshat. If you cannot provide it, then I'll assume you were lying.

When you've quoted portions of the manga AT me that prove my point...me providing evidence to someone throwing childish insults is quite an absurd request. Please forgive me for not wanting to play this game with you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Claims of moral relativism are the whine of a dying argument. Try and justify his brutality to me in moral terms why don't you. By any human viewpoint his actions are monstrous and apprehensible.

No, claims that your own set of moral rules that you are applying are dumb. Then claiming that the dictates of the real world "masses" is a logical fallacy called "argumentum ad populum."

You have yet to substantiate your claims and I've provided two examples of real world things we do that is "acceptable" so not only have I called out your weak "moral relativism" argument, I've also proven how hypocritical your own society, the thing you are trying to use as your meter stick, is with some of the very same "monstrous" behavior.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't give a shit about fvcking Soul Societies rules. That place is a hell hole. By our rules he is.

And your own personal opinion means nothing in the context of whether or not he's a monster in SS. You can argue all day about your own opinion on labels for people, but those are you opinions and not fact: stop trying to pass your opinion as fact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyone who tries to claim Mengele isn't evil is either psychotic, trolling (which I strongly suspect youre doing) or just a fvcking idiot.

Anyone who claims to have a moral absolute meter stick is an idiot, ignorant, and desperate to save face for their arguments on morals.

One thing you need to realize: morals are never ever absolute unless you can perfectly prove that God exists. Sure, there are things that most other people would not like, but these are debatable until you can prove THE supreme being to be real and that these morals are absolutes in this universe. Until then, it's just you citing your opinion as evidence for a fictional character which lives in a society that does not share your same legal opinion (within their fictional universe.)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not so.

He mentions that the Quincy were a dying breed and that he had to bribe the shinigami in order to get at them. Clearly this is after the 'war' had ended and the Quincy as he and Ishida both say were merely being watched so that they wouldn't go back to killing Hollows. Its consistent with the facts.

Your argument is a complete red herring to begin with. What you want me to argue against is a waste of time because:

"The only Quincy's left were so few in number that, before Ishida, we only know of two: his father and grandfather. It seems that there was quite the genocide. And SS did not see Ishida as a threat because he's not nearly enough to throw the balance off that was going to destroy both worlds."

"Considering that after those 200 years, there were literally only 2 left, that's a very successful genocide. That's more thorough than any human genocide in history. What about their campaign was NOT a systematic destruction of their people or culture?"

Stay on topic instead of injecting new points that you can argue about just to be right.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I sincerely doubt they've mistranslated 'kill' as 'rescue.' 😐

OR I simply did not remember the chronological context of the statement and it makes much more since now that AA put it in context? Maybe that? Yes?

Originally posted by Nephthys
/argument.

Up yours troll.

If you want to go down this path, I will start reporting you. I think you need to stop crapping up the anime manga forum with posts like you do in the MVF. This place is awesome and free of bullshit: keep yours out.

You did not address what I posted.

How did I not. You said that he didn't do experiments on anyone who wasn't an enemy of Soul Society*, and I responded by saying that that doesn't excuse his actions. That even if they were enemies that doesn't mean he can torture and murder them and still be considered morally clean.

* Which he did: Ishida's grandfather. At the time they were no longer at war and Soul Society actually came to his aid.

And there's nothing you can say that will change the things I've posted, either: you are stuck in your own world of how you think things should be.

No I'm not. I am merely judging Mayuri by his actions. His actions which are callous and cruel well past the point of clinical psychopathy into the realms of cartoon supervillianry. He is pointlessly cruel to those around him and utterly uncaring of human life. By any sane definition, he's a monster.

No matter what you say, Mayori is not the most evil character in Bleach.

Out of curiosity, who would you consider more evil? The only person who even comes close is Grand Fisher.

I was just responding with just as much of a good post as yours because I had already covered the point but you still raged at me.

So me making a legitimate comparison to battered housewives it equatable to 'no u'? Are you sure you're advocating subjectivism or is it lunacy?

You should because what SS thinks is actually what you should be addressing

The law isn't morality. Him being possibly within it does not make him less monsterous, any less than Vlad the Impaler, Hitler, Gengis Khan, Stalin or innumerable others were.

Injecting horses with lethal amounts of drugs and having little men ride them and beat them is considered "acceptable" by American society so I fail to see how a second class, artificial, spirit being who is subject to the rule of her captain up to and including death, is some how this monstrous evil you are trying to create from your own world of norms.

False analogy. A horse isn't a sapient being. It is an animal. Nemu is a thinking, feeling being. Whether she is human or not should not come into play in the slightest. Even by your own rules we've a) seen nothing to suggest she is a second class citizen and b) seen nothing to suggest SS allows captains to abuse their subordinates.

By the way, that sentence doesn't make any sense. 🙂

She is insubordinate, he can beat her and even kill her.

I'm still waiting for proof on this. So far you have given none.

Considering that after those 200 years, there were literally only 2 left, that's a very successful genocide. That's more thorough than any human genocide in history. What about their campaign was NOT a systematic destruction of their people or culture?

Near genocide is not genocide. Besides, as Aura and Mayuri both have proven, by the time Mayuri was put in charge the Quincy had already lost and they were no longer hunted. I've alredy provided evidence that he had to bribe the shinigami in order to get his hands on Ishida's grandfather and he says 'them' so he's clearly done it more than once. So no, his actions were not legitimised by Soul Society nor di he only go after their enemies.

So you don't have a legitimate answer? Cool.

Yeah, because forcing a father to burn his son to death is really going to open up the mysteries of the universe. I'm sure it was truely informative. 🙄

1. Provided it already.

Well I just re-read you're entire argument and I can't see it. You've said they allowed it. Alot. But you havn't actually proven anything. Care to point me in the right direction big boy?

2. You just asked the same question I did with a slightly different take. What would happen when #1 exists?

No I didn't. You said 'what are they going to do, complain?' And then I said 'why can't they?' Those.... are not the same things. 😬

You'll need to prove #1 first.

3. Proof that if the Captain Commander had seen that or if the Central 46 knew about that, he'd be in trouble for being a "monster"?

Murdering someone is a universal crime. It's in ever single country in the world. Why are you assuming is SS different?

Besides which is the fact that their entire organisation is based around the preservation of life.

By which definition? Your own? Yeah, that's worthless in this discussion.

By pretty much every single definition that exists in this world actually. Oh snap, wh4t now!? 😮

Though if youre sincerely curious....

That's what they originally thought but they seem to like him for about 100 years, now. He's also subordinate.

Mayuri legitimately rose to Captain because Uruhara was thick enough to make him his no2. from then on we have no proof that they knew about his behaviour, especially as I've given you proof that he concealed it.

It looks like you quoted the wrong section because this type of request for that portion of text does not properly apply.

It does, you're just too lazy to scroll up and make the connection. I pointed out that you've been lax in proving your point that they're aware of his actions, you responded that you've proven everything and that your argument is flawless and that I can't hope to stop you now, so I asked you to provide this proof that you say you've already provided. Simple.

Jesus keep up. 😆

When you've quoted portions of the manga AT me that prove my point...me providing evidence to someone throwing childish insults is quite an absurd request. Please forgive me for not wanting to play this game with you.

So.... you can't provide the evidence then?

Cool. Why didn't you just say that in the first place, jeez. 🙄

No, claims that your own set of moral rules that you are applying are dumb. Then claiming that the dictates of the real world "masses" is a logical fallacy called "argumentum ad populum."

Murder is a universal crime. You hiding behind the moral subjectivity argument does not in any way justify his crimes. Yes, there is no definitive 'Evil' stamp on his forehead, but the reality of his actions speak for themselves. He callously tortures others and gains great satisfaction and enjoyment from it. He forces a man to murder his own son. He shows Ishida a picture of his grandfathers mutilated and severed head. Why teh fvck was he even carrying that around? By the rules of society, psychology and philosophy, his actions are capital E EVIL. There is no justification for his actions. All of yours have failed. He's a crazed murderer.

His actions are far and away more cruel, callous and evil than the other characters in the series.

By the way you yourself are committing the argumentum ad logicam fallacy. 🙂

You have yet to substantiate your claims and I've provided two examples of real world things we do that is "acceptable"

I count one.

And your own personal opinion means nothing in the context of whether or not he's a monster in SS.

Which is not what we're arguing.

Anyone who claims to have a moral absolute meter stick is an idiot, ignorant, and desperate to save face for their arguments on morals.

Or religious. I'd be careful here, you might say something you'll regret.


One thing you need to realize: morals are never ever absolute unless you can perfectly prove that God exists. Sure, there are things that most other people would not like, but these are debatable until you can prove THE supreme being to be real and that these morals are absolutes in this universe. Until then, it's just you citing your opinion as evidence for a fictional character which lives in a society that does not share your same legal opinion (within their fictional universe.)

Ask me if I care. I can provide source after source backing up my assessment of Mayuri's character. I don't mind. But at the end of the day, his actions by every concievable scale are more monstrous than those around him. So I'll still win the argument.


Your argument is a complete red herring to begin with. What you want me to argue against is a waste of time because:

How the fvck is it a red herring? You're attempting to claim legitimacy or his actions by claiming their legal. I prove they're not and suddenly I'm off topic! Bullshit. Admit that you're wrong.

OR I simply did not remember the chronological context of the statement and it makes much more since now that AA put it in context? Maybe that? Yes?

Oh, you did. Oh snap! Now you just need to wise up about the rest of your argument.

If you want to go down this path, I will start reporting you. I think you need to stop crapping up the anime manga forum with posts like you do in the MVF. This place is awesome and free of bullshit: keep yours out.

The MVF is (rightly) regarded by the other sub-forums as being a complete dung heap. I scarcely believe I've made it any worse. Unless we're using the moral reletivist argument that intelligence = crap. In which case I freely confess to the crime.

Edit: I can see where you coming from. I really can. I myself most often side with the moral relativist side of things, though I still think you're insane with the Mengele talk. But I'm still going to argue against you simply because over the course of the past months I've come to pretty much hate you. So, yeah....

Originally posted by Nephthys
The MVF is (rightly) regarded by the other sub-forums as being a complete dung heap. I scarcely believe I've made it any worse. Unless we're using the moral reletivist argument that intelligence = crap. In which case I freely confess to the crime.

I feel so unwelcomed when I go there. >_>

This discussion of good and evil is making me lol a lot. Not because it isn't an interesting topic or anything but because it's Bleach.