Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm not the one that needs to go read another manga: I'm not raging about no one dying. I'm saying I like it.
Like what? Manga's being unrealistic and having all the good guy's wearing mile thick plot armor? The idea that these stories should be written like they're geared towards five year olds and make sure that the good guys always win and the bad guys always lose?
Why?
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Like what? Manga's being unrealistic and having all the good guy's wearing mile thick plot armor? The idea that these stories should be written like they're geared towards five year olds and make sure that the good guys always win and the bad guys always lose?Why?
See, you're one of those ragers. 🙂
I don't read fantasy to experience reality. I read fantasy to escape reality. If you want to a read a glum story where all the main characters die (an immature story telling method, btw), I am perfectly okay with you doing that. Go read Gantz: everyone dies pretty much left and right.
Reality sucks. Everyone would die in the overwhelming odds like we see in Shonen manga. There are no magic power-ups. You just die when the odds are against you.
Also, the good guys don't always win in the stories I like. They lose.
Mangas I like and enjoy:
Naruto
Bleach
Beezulbub
Gantz
Gamaran
Fairy Tail
Claymore
The Breaker (and New Waves)
Berserk
Historys Strongest Disciple Kenichi
Plenty of "good guy" losses in all of the above. Kenichi routinely gets his *ss handed to him. Same with Shi-Woon: he literally gets his ass beat in every single fight. Berserk is obvious as Guts is pretty much the only character to not die that we liked (lol).
So no only is your argument invalid, you're actually taking the path of more immature writing style. It is more difficult to write a story where your good guys refuse to kill and they save themselves and the bad guys (Historys Strongest Disciple Kenichi is one of the ones that makes this a central point).
Originally posted by dadudemon
See, you're one of those ragers. 🙂I don't read fantasy to experience reality. I read fantasy to escape reality. If you want to a read a glum story where all the main characters die (an immature story telling method, btw), I am perfectly okay with you doing that. Go read Gantz: everyone dies pretty much left and right.
Reality sucks. Everyone would die in the overwhelming odds like we see in Shonen manga. There are no magic power-ups. You just die when the odds are against you.
Also, the good guys don't always win in the stories I like. They lose.
Mangas I like and enjoy:
Naruto
Bleach
Beezulbub
Gantz
Gamaran
Fairy Tail
Claymore
The Breaker (and New Waves)
Berserk
Historys Strongest Disciple KenichiPlenty of "good guy" losses in all of the above. Kenichi routinely gets his *ss handed to him. Same with Shi-Woon: he literally gets his ass beat in every single fight. Berserk is obvious as Guts is pretty much the only character to not die that we liked (lol).
So no only is your argument invalid, you're actually taking the path of more immature writing style. It is more difficult to write a story where your good guys refuse to kill and they save themselves and the bad guys (Historys Strongest Disciple Kenichi is one of the ones that makes this a central point).
The problem with Bleach isn't the characters dodging death, it the characters coming back to life for no gotdamn reason.
Avoiding a fatal wound or taking an asskicing is one thing,but when people survive getting impaled or sliced in half with no explanation behind...I become kind of pissed.
Or better yet, ressurecting themselves from the f*cking dead like Ichigo did awhile back was a complete WTF momment. Even the hollow that brought him back said that they would die with Ichigo so really WTF?
Where did I say that Bleach and Naruto needed to kill off good characters left and right? That's not very realistic either, considering how powerful the good characters are, but think, for a moment. When was the last time in Naruto that a good guy, not a face heel turn villain, died? Jiraiya? When was the last time a good character in Bleach died? Gin Never? It's one thing to have a manga that you need to have suspension of disbelief, but when you have a manga that's fairly violent and geared towards mature audiences, you don't write it like it's My Little Pony. Characters, especially ones that have remained in the manga for a long time, surviving despite the stupid situations they're in (Pain attacking Konoha, Fake Karakura) ruins the plot.
Characters should die when the situation demands it. Good guys should have died when Pain attacked Konoha, same with Fake Karakura. To make matters worse, these characters often receive mortal injuries, but they're fine, yet the bad guys take similar, if not lesser injuries, and it's game over. That's stupid, that's little kid material. It's hard to take these manga seriously when they pull stuff like that. Take this arc in Bleach, for example. I correctly guessed everything that would happen. I knew from the get go, nobody good would die (Last minute recanting villains don't count), the fights would generally be curb-stomps for the good guys, yada yada yada. Why? Because that's the Bleach formula. It stagnates. When you've seen countless times how the good guy either stomps on his opponent, or the villain seemingly kills/beats him, yet next chapter shrugs off the attack/heals, it ruins the suspense, since everything's so predictable, not to mention the horrible effect it has on character development, or lack thereof.
tl;dr, leaving all your characters alive forever because plot armor is something I would expect from a children's story, not a manga meant for teenagers/young adults.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
think, for a moment. When was the last time in Naruto that a good guy, not a face heel turn villain, died? Jiraiya?
Gaara died (but was brought back to life so we substituted him for Chiyo).
Jiraiya died.
Minato died.
Kushina died.
Sarutobi died.
Orochimaru died (I think he was a good guy. I hate you all).
Itachi died.
Kisame died (arguably a good guy...more like a anti-hero type).
Asuma died.
Haku died.
Zabuza died (he turned good right at the end).
Iruka's parents sacrificed their lives for Iruka against the Kyuubi.
Gaara's mother died.
Yashamaru died.
Gekko died (killed during the sand invasion).
First Hokage died in war.
Second Hokage died in war.
OHHH! Kaiza died too! Just read about his death. Sad stuff.
Gaara's dad died (he was a good guy...but did bad things...he did them all for his people).
Hizashi died in sacrifice of his brother.
Obito died.
White Fang died.
Konan died.
Yohiko died.
Hanzo died.
Danzo (arguably a good guy that was fighting for the overall greater good) died.
And the biggest one of all: Nagato died. Nagato was a good guy even when bad.
Man, that's a huge *ss list of good guys that died.
Your argument is invalid.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
When was the last time a good character in Bleach died?GinNever?
Bleach character's that died:
Human:
Masaki Kurosaki
Uryu's unnamed mother (presumed)
Oscar Joaquin de la Rosa
Sora Inoue
Soken Ishida
Shinigami:
Kaname Tosen
Kaien Shiba
Miyako Shiba
Hollow/Arrancar:
Coyote Starrk
Barragan Luisenbarn
Lillynette Gingerback
Tia Harribel
Ulquiorra Cifer
Nnoitra Jiruga
Zommari Leroux
Szayel Aporro Granz
Aaroniero Arruruerie
(The fraccion of all of the above)
Allon
Luppi
Dordonii Alessandro Del Socacchio
Cirucci Sanderwicci
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_is_dead_in_bleach#ixzz1gYzYAgHA
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
It's one thing to have a manga that you need to have suspension of disbelief, but when you have a manga that's fairly violent and geared towards mature audiences, you don't write it like it's My Little Pony. Characters, especially ones that have remained in the manga for a long time, surviving despite the stupid situations they're in (Pain attacking Konoha, Fake Karakura) ruins the plot.
The situations were not the problems in either of those scenarios you presented.
It was what took place in the scenarios that some people do not like. I wish the plot would have progressed without PIS in the Fake Town arc. The Naruto fight with Pain was excellent and among my most favorite of things to have taken place in Naruto. 🙂
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Characters should die when the situation demands it.
No, that's not true.
Writing 101: create opposition for characters to overcome. Whether it is man against man, man against nature, or man against self.
You have missed the most fundemental of writing methods. In the naturalistic writing style, sure, it is okay to kill off everyone because that's what that style is like. This is not the 1890s- 1910s: we no longer write in the naturalistic writing style on a routine basis in our fiction. It has fallen out of favor. We most certainly do not write that way in a shounen manga: it is geared towards tweens and young teenagers.
If the situation is setup in favor against our protagonists, we must write a way for them to either:
1. overcome it through personal growth (a staple of shounen manga)
2. Sacrifice their life to teach others something or convert the bad guy (a staple of shounen manga).
Note the emphasis on shounen manga. 🙂
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Good guys should have died when Pain attacked Konoha, same with Fake Karakura.
And they DID die. However, Pain gave up his life in redemption due to Naruto reminding him of what is truly the righteous thing to do.
Several characters died in Bleach, as well. Which captains busted our their bankai? Exactly. It should be expected that it would be a stomp since none of the most powerful busted our their bankai. I'm not upset about that, at all. I'm upset that they DIDN'T bust out their bankais.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
To make matters worse, these characters often receive mortal injuries, but they're fine, yet the bad guys take similar, if not lesser injuries, and it's game over.
And yet, each universe has magical healers that can heal wounds. So your argument is still invalid.
"Good guys of magical hearlers that can heal almost any wound. Bad guys don't. Outcome: good guys may be able to save more of their people than the bad guys...it comes with having powers based on altruism rather than selfishness. What does that teach us boys and girls? Being selfish and mean can result in bad stuff."
😆
On top of that, some of the "bad guys" WERE healed and survived from the Fake Town arc. What now, son? 😄
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
That's stupid, that's little kid material.
Yeah, how dare a fictional universe with magical healers heal their comrades before they die. That's just stupid and childish.
Oh, wait...that's what we use modern medicine for, too.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
It's hard to take these manga seriously when they pull stuff like that. Take this arc in Bleach, for example. I correctly guessed everything that would happen. I knew from the get go, nobody good would die (Last minute recanting villains don't count),
Actually, last minute recanting villains DO count. That's the entire point of some of these fights:trying to show them the error in their ways and get them to see the light.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
the fights would generally be curb-stomps for the good guys, yada yada yada. Why? Because that's the Bleach formula. It stagnates. When you've seen countless times how the good guy either stomps on his opponent, or the villain seemingly kills/beats him, yet next chapter shrugs off the attack/heals, it ruins the suspense, since everything's so predictable, not to mention the horrible effect it has on character development, or lack thereof.
In this particular arc, Ichigo and co were significantly stronger than the bad guys. Once all the captains and lieutenants showed up, it was game over for the fullbring squad.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
tl;dr, leaving all your characters alive forever because plot armor is something I would expect from a children's story, not a manga meant for teenagers/young adults.
Perhaps you should read senin manga instead of shonen manga because complaining about the moral lessons that shounen manga teach is going to be ignored: why read it when you know it's going to teach you to be a more moral young man?
The last non heel faced turned good guy to die was Jiraiya. Danzo was not a good guy.
The last good guy to die in Bleach was...Kaien Shiba. I assume. As far as the other deaths, they all happened before the start of the story. Kaien was killed in flashback but at least we saw it. No good guys have really "died" in the main story.
I'm not getting into a stupid argument with you that you will never concede. However, the list you provided is wrong, simply for you misunderstood what I said. Who was the last good guy (GOOD GUY, Kisame is not a ****ing good guy) to die in Naruto, an actual through and through good person, not some heel-face-turn villain. Jiraiya. I could care less about the characters that were killed off 10 years ago or who were already dead and their death is elaborated on in flashbacks, and we have no emotional ties to them whats-so-ever.
Same with Bleach....though I have no frigging idea why you listed the Arrancars. =|
And Tosen is no.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-790-9/bleach/chapter-336.html
She should not have survived.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The last non heel faced turned good guy to die was Jiraiya. Danzo was not a good guy.The last good guy to die in Bleach was...Kaien Shiba. I assume. As far as the other deaths, they all happened before the start of the story. Kaien was killed in flashback but at least we saw it. No good guys have really "died" in the main story.
I disagree. Nagato was never a bad guy. He was a good guy the entire time.
"Kill some to save the most and prosper the most" was the theory of both Nagato and Danzo. They were not bad guys, at all. Both realized their approach to how to bring about good was wrong at the end of their lives, sure...but they thought that what they were doing was. Nagato's plan actually wasn't that bad: force the nations to stop fighting to end the cycle of pain through the threat of "nuclear" weapons destroying them all. His plan was basically "M.A.D." MAD just so happens to have been the plan they were using already but in a lesser form: the biju. Was his plan all that different? No. Not at all. His plan was just more direct with the MAD-ness and would force everyone to have to get along.
Zabu was pretty much a muderous bastard even until the very end. He did form a bond with Haku and he did redeem himself. He's a good example of a true bad guy gone good guy at the end.
Bleach: no way that Starrk was a bad guy. Same with Harribel. They were good guys through and through. Ginjo? Still a good guy. He did his whole thing to get Ichigo to his side and get his revenge on SS for their underhanded/evil controlling tactics. Hardly a bad guy. He saw the "light" that Ichigo provided at the end of their fight, sure. He become a "genuine" good guy at that point.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I'm not getting into a stupid argument with you that you will never concede. However, the list you provided is wrong, simply for you misunderstood what I said. Who was the last good guy (GOOD GUY, Kisame is not a ****ing good guy) to die in Naruto, an actual through and through good person, not some heel-face-turn villain. Jiraiya. I could care less about the characters that were killed off 10 years ago or who were already dead and their death is elaborated on in flashbacks, and we have no emotional ties to them whats-so-ever.Same with Bleach....though I have no frigging idea why you listed the Arrancars. =|
And Tosen is no.
Wait, you think that you can change a completely subjective stance on taste through rage arguing? That never works. If that was your goal, you should have known it would fail before you even responded to my initial posts about the ragers.
Also, Tousen was never evil, either.
Kisame wasn't purely evil, either. He was an honorable and loyal shinobi and was a true shinobi till the very end. He is closer to gray than evil.
Keep in mind that you're arguing about the maturity of stories but you have not presented any reason for me to believe you have the literary maturity to even recognize how nebulous morality is in both reality and in fiction. So why should your opinion even matter to me? It doesn't. It is also why I find the raging about the lack of deaths to be both invalid, innappropriate and sometimes based on a false premise.
And if you looked at the link for where I got that list from, you'd know why that list has arrancars in it. 🙂