Whatever you wanna call it, Something had to have always been, because that Ultimate Ground is, by definition, Infinite in every imaginable and unimaginable sense of the term. There can be nothing outside it, before it, or after it.
If you try to tell me, "Well, what about..." then what you're really saying is, "I don't abide by your definition above." I reply, "Fine and dandy. Let's 'add on' what you just suggested, in which case, then, This was the Ultimate Ground to which I have always been referring.
And we can continue this in infinite regression, in which case infinite regression becomes the Ultimate Ground. Whatever.
There's no escape. 🤘
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Conversely, it is possible that the Universe is not created, and that it has simply always been here.
PURELY mathematically, its just as possible that the universe always WAS here than its opposition. relegious people seem to think that the universe beein here is a POSITIVE, argument, for there beein a god, but think about it, if were rationalizing that there IS a CREATION required for sumthin to exist than why should GOD be exempted from it? if the argument is made that the universe has a creator than god also has a creator.
Originally posted by Mindship
A piece of a conversation I had with someone a long time ago...
Him: "Well, then, where did God come from?"
Me: "God created himself."
"How could God create himself??"
"That's what makes God God." 😉
"'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."
Originally posted by Adam_PoEHow can something create its self?? 😑
"'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."
Wouldn't have to have a thought to create it's self first, so where did the thought come from......Where was it..What created the thought? 😕
Originally posted by debbiejo
How can something create its self?? 😑Wouldn't have to have a thought to create it's self first, so where did the thought come from......Where was it..What created the thought? 😕
I think that God creating God is a way to describe something difficult to understand. There has never been any point of creation; creation is continuous, from infinite past to infinite future.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think that God creating God is a way to describe something difficult to understand...
Exactly. There is, IMO, tremendous hubris in humans thinking we can fit Infinity into neat little boxes of logic. "God creating himself," is just another way of saying, Intellect has reached its limits, the way the eye of flesh is limited in "understanding" calculus. Mind can not grasp something that is, in effect, transintellectual. If it does try, you end up with paradox.
Spirit is beyond eye of reason, requiring eye of contemplation. Wasn't it Buddha who said, essentially, the first step to real understanding is to say, "I don't understand?"
Of course, for those who don't believe in the spiritual, paradox is seen as contradiction proving spirit doesn't exist. And y'know, that may well be the case. But since no one knows for certain either way (regardless of what may be claimed), I choose to be 50.5% believer, 49.5% skeptic for practical reasons.
Originally posted by Mindship
Exactly. There is, IMO, tremendous hubris in humans thinking we can fit Infinity into neat little boxes of logic. "God creating himself," is just another way of saying, Intellect has reached its limits in trying to understand something that is, in effect, transintellectual (like intuition, but moreso). It is beyond eye of reason, requiring eye of contemplation. Wasn't it Buddha who said, essentially, the first step to real understanding is to say, "I don't understand?"Of course, for those who don't believe in the spiritual, paradox is seen as contradiction proving spirit doesn't exist. And y'know, that may well be the case. But since no one knows for certain either way (regardless of what may be claimed), I choose to be 50.5% believer, 49.5% skeptic for practical reasons.
actually, ultimately, human logic denies itself "logically"