Originally posted by batdude123
Logically speaking, Doom shouldn't be beating Mags.Unless you REALLY want to defend Superman against Darkseid...
There is no logic in comics 😛
Seriously, there is a canadian samurai with claws who fights a giant green monster who gets stronger as he gets angrier...
Where's the logic?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Sound like momentum again, just like in 'Sacrifice.'
Momentum? Yeah, crossing 50,000 lightyears in moments.... sure sounds like he needs A LOT of momentum to build up to those speeds. Please, if this is the best you've got, don't bother. His 'momentum' is built up before either Doom or Hulk could even formulate a single thought.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Again, momentum, momentum, momentum.
What the hell are you talking about? Those were legitimate speedblitzes. How did he have that against the aliens, Bizarro, the city of villains, Zoom, Captain Atom/Power Girl/GL John/Starfire (at the same time), etc? You're ignoring them because they rip your argument to pieces. Go figure. 🙄 Superman's speed completely out guns both Hulk and Doom, it's not even funny. Anybody thinking logically about this fight could see that.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Well then, that ends this debate.
No, actually it doesn't. He does it on a regular enough basis to where it's logical to use it in a debate.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If he can, he doesn't like to.
Yeah, he's said that he doesn't. However, he does it all the time, so what you're thinking is simply a fallacy.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So he'd probably avoid it.
Not really.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So what's the difference in this fight?
You're completely ignoring the other stuff Superman can do in a fight. He isn't just a person like the Hulk, with super speed. 🙄
He can vibrate his molecules to go completely intangible:
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/553/supermaninvisible44zc.jpg
Hey, and guess what? There's also invisibility:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Supermangoininvisible.jpg
Heat vision enought to blow up a planet.
And there's always T-Vo:
http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vo23kw.jpg
http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vo31hz.jpg
http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=torquasmvo4po.jpg
http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=speed6gj.jpg
http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vo8tc.jpg
Absorbing "bio-energy":
http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supermanvol2007p20ne7.jpg
http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supermanvol2007p21pt6.jpg
Sonic attacks that can destroy a city
etc. etc. etc.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So 7/10 Hulk and Doom. Check.
Please, you're dilusional. 🙄
(Btw, sorry if I'm coming off a bit strong. I mean no disrespect 😉)
Originally posted by lando005
honestly now in the world they live in you dont think someone of doom's intellignce hasnt already taken precautions agains emps? doom who comes up with near flawless plans, doom who has ruled the world multipule times over and has upsured the powers of cosmic beings?
Yeah... speculation on your part.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
BTW, the whole point about diamteric magnetism and its utilities was thoroughly debunked in another Magneto vs. thread. If I remember correctly, all organic molecules are affected by magnetism, but diametric magnetism is the weakest form of all. The most anybody's been able to do is levitate a frog. Woopie.
Magneto can create incredibly strong magnetic fields that can allow him control of anything he pleases. 🙂
Originally posted by Grimm22
Magic > Magneto 😉Hey, Reed made a device to pwn Mags in one day 😐
You dont think Doom would have an even more advanced device in his armor?!?
Yeah, kind of like how Mjolnir is > Magneto.... oh, wait.... WHAT!!!??? AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/MightilyOats/Magneto87.jpg
And Doom doesn't have any prep time.
Originally posted by batdude123
Yeah... speculation on your part.
on to business at hand specualtion? you mean to tell me doom hasnt conquered the earh multipule time? you mean to tell me doon hasnt stolen the powers of the silver surver galatcus or the beyonder?.... riiiiight
Go ahead and post the contexts of each of those feats. I'll show you what I mean by momentum. I agree his acceleration is astonishing. But on a battlefield, he gets to supersonic speeds at best when he comes into contact with a target. The simplest illustration is 'Sacrifice.' DD just ripped Lois apart. Supes speedblitzed Wonderwoman. You see glass breaking from a sonic boom. Moments later he gets enough speed to start accelerating towards the sun in moments. But the speed at the start of this 'speedblitz' when he actualyl makes contact with WW? Supersonic at best. You've never refuted this at all in any of your so-called 'speedblitzes.'
Not to mention that every single 'speedblitz' you've referred to have not been used in the way you want him to use it. They're speed feats at best. The 'speedblitz' you want him to do is to accelerate right into the Hulk or Dr. Doom for damage. Too bad I've the only one who's actually described instances of this tactic this entire time. Name me other times he's started from a deadstart on a battlefield and accelerated straight into an enemy at the speeds you're referring to as a tactic or a desperate measure or a finishing move. ANYTHING.
Not to mention that while you continue to believe I've not refuted your examples, you still post no context. And let me do some pointing as well. Why didn't Superman blow through Wonderwoman in 'Sacrifice' at such astonishing speeds considering that was probably the best situation he'd ever do it? Bloodlusted, Doomsday durability and danger, no idea of innocents around in his illusions...
Hmph. Also, why didn't Superman save those militants in Superman #207? Wanna know his exact quote? "Six-hundred seventy-two mph. That's the speed of a bullet fired from an M-60. It's been said that I'm faster than a speeding bullet. And I am. But sometimes... being faster than a speeding bullet... is not fast enough." Result? Several dozen dead militants as the bullets hit their targets a split instant before Superman can get there. How do you explain that? Before you start emphasizing that my ship is leaking water, especially when you don't post context, you might want to notice that the ship you're standing on is halfway sunk already. With all due respect.
EDIT: Lastly, show me where Magneto manipulates non metallic objects as freely as he pleases using diametric magnetism.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Go ahead and post the contexts of each of those feats. I'll show you what I mean by momentum. I agree his acceleration is astonishing. But on a battlefield, he gets to supersonic speeds at best when he comes into contact with a target. The simplest illustration is 'Sacrifice.' DD just ripped Lois apart. Supes speedblitzed Wonderwoman. You see glass breaking from a sonic boom. Moments later he gets enough speed to start accelerating towards the sun in moments. But the speed at the start of this 'speedblitz' when he actualyl makes contact with WW? Supersonic at best. You've never refuted this at all in any of your so-called 'speedblitzes.'Not to mention that every single 'speedblitz' you've referred to have not been used in the way you want him to use it. They're speed feats at best. The 'speedblitz' you want him to do is to accelerate right into the Hulk or Dr. Doom for damage. Too bad I've the only one who's actually described instances of this tactic this entire time. Name me other times he's started from a deadstart on a battlefield and accelerated straight into an enemy at the speeds you're referring to as a tactic or a desperate measure or a finishing move. ANYTHING.
Not to mention that while you continue to believe I've not refuted your examples, you still post no context. And let me do some pointing as well. Why didn't Superman blow through Wonderwoman in 'Sacrifice' at such astonishing speeds considering that was probably the best situation he'd ever do it? Bloodlusted, Doomsday durability and danger, no idea of innocents around in his illusions...
Hmph. Also, why didn't Superman save those militants in Superman #207? Wanna know his exact quote? "Six-hundred seventy-two mph. That's the speed of a bullet fired from an M-60. It's been said that I'm faster than a speeding bullet. And I am. But sometimes... being faster than a speeding bullet... is not fast enough." Result? Several dozen dead militants as the bullets hit their targets a split instant before Superman can get there. How do you explain that? Before you start emphasizing that my ship is leaking water, especially when you don't post context, you might want to notice that the ship you're standing on is halfway sunk already. With all due respect.
EDIT: Lastly, show me where Magneto manipulates non metallic objects as freely as he pleases using diametric magnetism.
Again, the weight of your post is held in TWO different instances, while I’ve given you multiple ones. You seem to think that the times you’ve mentioned hold more ground than the specific ones I’ve mentioned, even though I’ve given you more instances. I’ve been telling you about specific blitzes he’s preformed, and you’ve ignored them, and only referred to your own. What’s the point of listing them if you’re going to simply ignore them? And honestly there are SO SO many instances of his speed blitzes.
The whole ‘Sacrifice’ arc was to make Wonder Woman look good. I’m not gonna lie. He has PLENTY of speed feats that put that one to shame.
“Faster than a speeding bullet” was a tag line used about him more in the golden age era. He’s gotten plenty more powerful since then. Now, he’s faster than light. I find your disingenuous attitude towards Superman’s speed a bit laughable, as you only hold onto your two specific cases, when there are TONS more.
Non metallic items? Kay…
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/2610/magtakesonplasticandceramic7lu.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2273/magblastblowsthroughmountainwi.jpg
Originally posted by batdude123this is dr doom we're talking about he's not some halfwit scientest who over looks obvious weaknesses like you would make him out to be the man knows all too well what kind of world he lives in he'ld be a fool not to modify his armor to counteract basic attack like emps against it
Unless you can actually show me some EVIDENCE of him prepping for an electromagnetic pulse, you're statements hold absolutely NO ground.I'M done here...
Originally posted by batdude123You point the finger at me and say I ignore your speed feats. I haven't, they're easy to explain although you provide me no context from which to argue. But I'll do it anyway: 1) Fly around a galaxy? He accelerated to light speed after a bti of momentum. 2) Beat Bizarro in a race? He had the whole race to accelerate to a speed to beat Bizarro 3) Flew to Jupiter in a few minutes? Gimme a break, he accelerated to sublight speed during those few minutes. 4) Flew to the sun in seconds? Started out at subsonic speeds for the first second, got to much higher speeds in the second and third second, hit light speed into the fourth second. 5) Caught 500 aliens in mid air before they could react? It took him two-and-a-half seconds to do so. Still started at supersonic speeds. 6) Speedblitzed an entire city? He started from a distance and built his speed up.
Again, the weight of your post is held in TWO different instances, while I’ve given you multiple ones. You seem to think that the times you’ve mentioned hold more ground than the specific ones I’ve mentioned, even though I’ve given you more instances. I’ve been telling you about specific blitzes he’s preformed, and you’ve ignored them, and only referred to your own. What’s the point of listing them if you’re going to simply ignore them? And honestly there are SO SO many instances of his speed blitzes.The whole ‘Sacrifice’ arc was to make Wonder Woman look good. I’m not gonna lie. He has PLENTY of speed feats that put that one to shame.
“Faster than a speeding bullet” was a tag line used about him more in the golden age era. He’s gotten plenty more powerful since then. Now, he’s faster than light. I find your disingenuous attitude towards Superman’s speed a bit laughable, as you only hold onto your two specific cases, when there are TONS more.
Non metallic items? Kay…
http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/2610/magtakesonplasticandceramic7lu.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2273/magblastblowsthroughmountainwi.jpg
There you go. You happy now? You've just had me refute your points and you still refuse to provide me context. My assumptions may be wrong, but hell... I'm being evasive in answering your points, so I guess I better answer anyway and assume a few things.
Your arguing strategy at this point?
batdude123: "Tiki Barber is far better than any other running back in football."
me: "No, I'm pretty sure he's not."
batdude123: "Yes he is. He ran three straight 300 yd games and he has 50+ yds receiving yds average a game."
me: "Err. Context please? Can you tell me which crap defensive line teams he rushed those 300 yd games in? Can you tell me if those receiving yds are his because the defense focuses more on Giants wide receivers and tight ends than screen passes for Tiki Barber?
batdude123: "STFU. You're avoiding the argument. Tell me how you can refute the three straight 300 yd rushing games?"
me: "Can I have context please, who did the Giants play against? It makes a difference if the opposing teams' rush defense sucked or not."
batdude123: "You lose. You're avoiding answering my points."
me: "Gawd. Fine, I'm going to assume he didn't play the best rush defenses like Patriots and played jobbers like the Jets, Redskins and Indianapolis who constantly get rushed for 300 yds."
And 'Sacrifice' was made to make Wonderwoman look good? Yeesh. Great debating skills. I applaud your willingness to resort to the tactic that pretty much equates to: "That doesn't count! Neener neener!"
So, what's your explanation of Superman letting dozens of people die by a hail of bullets? Bad writing? He didn't give a particular crap that day? CHRIST, if there's anything EVER SO OBVIOUS, its that Superman WILL SAVE PEOPLE FROM BEING SHOT IF HE'S FAST ENOUGH. Here in #207, he didn't because he couldn't. He couldn't because he wasn't fast enough in his own words. He wasn't fast enough because although he can reach light speed, he needs a bit of acceleration time, he can't do it from a dead start. Is it so hard to see the easiest solution? My explanation is quite clear, Superman can traverse great distances in short times, but he cannot accelerate to light speed from the start. He goes at supersonic speed at the start and instants later, hell two seconds later... he's up to light speeds. My version of his speed abilities lies in perfect harmony with everything stated. Sometimes he isn't fast enough to save people's lives, ESPECIALLY from a deadstart. His speed feats are not undermined because as long as he gets a chance to amp up his speed, mere moments, he can use momentum and/or accelerate to light speeds. AND the obvious reason he never uses 'speedblitzes' is because they don't work the way you think.
BTW, your Magneto scans are utterly wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. In the first scan, Magneto doesn't even manipulate the plastic and ceramic helicopters directly. He throws steel beams at them. The missiles he manages to detonate before they hit him? Electric pulse to detonate the missiles ahead of time. Things like that usually explode when you add electricity. If anything, the use of steel beams is a dagger to your argument. And the second scan? He tosses Baron Von Strucker a few feet away? He levitates Xavier? He blasts a mountain with an electric pulse blast? Just what the hell does that prove other than his diametric magnetism sucks? Were you even thinking when you posted those scans? I'm starting to feel foolish in wasting my time debating with you now. Someone else step up to the plate about 'speedblitzes.' Jeez.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1) Fly around a galaxy? He accelerated to light speed after a bti of momentum.
Do you not understand that everyone has to build up momentum in order to move at speeds such as those? The point is he can build up the momentum before Doom and Hulk can react. Flying across a galaxy in moments, suggests the fact that he can accelerate to those speeds in a nanosecond. Not to mention his brain speed is extremely superior to theirs.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
3) Flew to Jupiter in a few minutes? Gimme a break, he accelerated to sublight speed during those few minutes.
Actually, I was wrong. It was one of the moons of SATURN. His speed was 21x the speed of light. You realize that’s just his AVERAGE speed there. Again, it shows his acceleration to be extremely quick (quicker than either of them can react to).
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
4) Flew to the sun in seconds? Started out at subsonic speeds for the first second, got to much higher speeds in the second and third second, hit light speed into the fourth second.
Please. 🙄 You realize it takes light EIGHT MINUTES to reach the sun? Superman had an average speed of a couple hundred times light speed.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
5) Caught 500 aliens in mid air before they could react? It took him two-and-a-half seconds to do so. Still started at supersonic speeds.
If you want to get technical, Flash also has to ‘build momentum’ (if only for a fraction of a second) just like everyone else does. Are you trying to tell me he couldn’t speedblitz Hulk or Doom? 🤨 Please, you’re sounding ignorant now. Starting at a specific speed, or building up speed is a completely USELESS point to bring up considering everybody does that. Hulk and Doom get speedblitzed either way. He’s way to fast for them to react to. ‘Nuff said right there, pal.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
6) Speedblitzed an entire city? He started from a distance and built his speed up.
You’re point about building up momentum is redundantly pointless, considering he is still FAR too fast for either combatant to react to. Do you think that the .0000001 sec. it takes for him to build up speed, they would’ve attacked him? I think not. From there, one good “solar system moving punch” against Doom, and he’d be down for the count. And it would probably take a couple hundred punches a sec to put Hulk down, but it WOULD happen. Hulk can’t beat Superman, period.
To FURTHUR prove my point about the “momentum building” thing being pointless:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7016886
He moved faster than ANYBODY could even perceive. Yeah, Doom and Hulk wouldn’t be able to do anything to somebody they couldn’t see, much less touch.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
There you go. You happy now? You've just had me refute your points and you still refuse to provide me context. My assumptions may be wrong, but hell... I'm being evasive in answering your points, so I guess I better answer anyway and assume a few things.
Yeah, thanks for proving my points.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And 'Sacrifice' was made to make Wonderwoman look good? Yeesh. Great debating skills. I applaud your willingness to resort to the tactic that pretty much equates to: "That doesn't count! Neener neener!"
Quit acting childish. The feat goes against a majority of other feats Superman has. Course you would know this if you actually read Superman.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So, what's your explanation of Superman letting dozens of people die by a hail of bullets? Bad writing?
Considering I’ve given you plenty of instances where he’s flown faster than that, I’m gonna have to go with a plot device on that one. It contradicts the majority of speed feats Superman has.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He didn't give a particular crap that day? Is it so hard to see the easiest solution? My explanation is quite clear, Superman can traverse great distances in short times, but he cannot accelerate to light speed from the start. He goes at supersonic speed at the start and instants later, hell two seconds later... he's up to light speeds. My version of his speed abilities lies in perfect harmony with everything stated. Sometimes he isn't fast enough to save people's lives, ESPECIALLY from a deadstart. His speed feats are not undermined because as long as he gets a chance to amp up his speed, mere moments, he can use momentum and/or accelerate to light speeds. AND the obvious reason he never uses 'speedblitzes' is because they don't work the way you think.
SO much wrong with this. 😂 It’s not even worth touching upon. 😆
Oh, and you can’t even give logical counters to the other powers Superman has as well. Hell, Torquasm-Vo alone would win this fight. I know it’s hard for you to admit, but get over it… 😬
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
BTW, your Magneto scans are utterly wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. In the first scan, Magneto doesn't even manipulate the plastic and ceramic helicopters directly. He throws steel beams at them. The missiles he manages to detonate before they hit him? Electric pulse to detonate the missiles ahead of time. Things like that usually explode when you add electricity. If anything, the use of steel beams is a dagger to your argument. And the second scan? He tosses Baron Von Strucker a few feet away? He levitates Xavier? He blasts a mountain with an electric pulse blast? Just what the hell does that prove other than his diametric magnetism sucks? Were you even thinking when you posted those scans? I'm starting to feel foolish in wasting my time debating with you now. Someone else step up to the plate about 'speedblitzes.' Jeez.
Christ, look closer at the scans. 🙄 In the first one, he completely takes apart two plastic missiles at the same exact time. In the second scan, he manipulates some more plastic. 😕
Also, Magneto would simply EMP Doom’s tech to short-circuit it. Then he could BFR him via a wormhole (yes, he HAS made one before…).
Superman and Magneto for the definite majority.
How about this for a speed feat?
BTW, thanks for providing me context for your speed feats. Oh whoops... you still haven't. Nice to see when my illustration encapsulates what you're debating skills amount to that you have to resort to ignoring it rather then addressing it. I have that effect on people. It's called shutting people up and making them move on. This is point one where you fail. You can rectify this by giving me context of those speed feats, which I've repeatedly asked for. That way, I can analyze them in the same way you have. If not, you fail.
And now you're apparently agreeing that Superman needs momentum to reach top speeds... but that momentum is instantaneous. I've been attacking this premise from the very start and you keep pointing to average speeds or, "Well if he can reach those speeds, his acceleration must be instantaneous." You know what that is? That's assuming your conclusion before you prove it. Its the most basic form of logical fallacy. This is point two where you fail. You can rectify this by showing me instances where he is able to reach those speeds ".000000001 seconds" from a dead start. If you can't, you're simply assuming and you fail.
So Superman didn't really 'speedblitz' Wonderwoman. Also, Superman not being able to stop people from being shot... that is no indication that his speed has limits. Plot device. Yeah, that's it. I guess 'Sacrifice' (only one of the most highly anticipated superhero bouts in DC history and crucial event leading to Infinite Crisis) is pure crap. Oh and writer Brian Azzarello is a complete douschebag and inferior in Superman knowledge to you. Superman couldn't save the people from being shot and he said, "... not fast enough." He was actually lying, he thought it'd be neat to have people die and/or big oversight in DC continuity. Those editors suck. Sure it happens. Lovely how it happened very recently, in very popular stories and it happened twice. But according to you, they don't count because your examples are somehow better than mine? This is point three where you fail. I can reconcile your speed feats with my own examples and you can't do the same. All that you are essentially doing is assuming your examples are better writing and mine are bad writing. You can rectify this by reconciling my examples or just admitting that I can come up with a solution and you can't.
With reference to Magneto scans, I see where you pointed out that he takes apart the missiles. And although you didn't answer the glaring fact that he had to use steel girders to destroy the helicopters, I can still argue the point. Name me any guidance system or trigger for a missile's payload that doesn't use some amount of metal? Computer transistors require electricity and electricity requires conduits. Those conduits are made of metal. Triggers that arm payloads require a switch, which requires electricity which again requires conduits.
What does this all mean? That most of the missile's chassis was composed of plastic and ceramic, but it still had metal components in it which he manipulated. This is totally consistent with his line about the plastic and ceramic reducing their vulnerability to my magnetic powers and not nullifying them. Either way, even granting your statement about him using pure diametric magnetism to manipulate the ceramic, thats a pretty low end feat. He couldn't do the same with the helicopter apparently so he's limited to small objects at best. And where exactly is he manipulating plastics in the second scan? You mean when he tosses Strucker a few feet? Or when he levitates Xavier? Yeah, I'm sure that level feat will surely help him against Dr. Doom.
