Hulk and Dr. Doom Vs Superman and Magneto

Started by OneDumbG08 pages

Point of the matter is, and really, stop posting speed feats. They're not 'speedblitzes.' Not at all. And yes, Flash can accelerate to his fastest speeds in .0000001 seconds IMHO, different than what Superman can do. If you could vizualize, yes, it is almost like one or two seconds of supersonic speeds and then ZOOM light+ speeds. Think of a sports car peeling rubber, it spends a second or two trying to gain grip with its tires and inches along the street and then ZOOM, it shoots forward once the tires have gained grip and the full acceleration potential is realized. I'm not saying the physics are the same, but the concept is. He can start forward at supersonic speeds and needs just those extra seconds to hit the pwnerz 'speed feat' speeds. On a regular battlefield, before he could reach those pwnerz 'speed feat' speeds he'd have already hit Hulk or Dr. Doom at supersonic speeds before being able to reach pwnerz 'speed feat' speeds. Unless he backed up and started from a distance...

That's my whole point. He'd hit them at supersonic speeds if he used a 'supersonic blitz' from the start, like he hit Wonderwoman, like he did in Superman #207 or Superman #217. Point is, I think Dr. Doom's forcefield, though severely taxed, could withstand a 'supersonic blitz.' I also believe Hulk could withstand a 'supersonic blitz.' Same way Wonderwoman took his 'supersonic blitz' in 'Sacrifice.' Unless now we believe Hulk's or Dr. Doom's forcefields are far below Wonderwoman's durability, I don't think Superman's 'supersonic blitzes' will end the battle the instant it starts. That's the main point of the 'speedblitz' debate.

That's something Flash could do with a true 'pwnerz speedblitz.' Not Superman. Now, what were to happen if Superman flew far away enough to get his several second acceleration time needed? Yeah, he'd severely screw up Hulk. I think he might even be able to blow Hulk in half. Hulk would heal if given a chance, but only if Superman or Dr. Doom gives him that chance. If Superman did it to Doom? Doom's computer systems in his armor would see it coming. Those few seconds would be more than enough time for Doom and his computer systems to calculate his tactic. Battle stipulations are that everybody has basic knowledge of each other. Doom would see it coming and use magic bonds, a magic forcefield, short range teleportation, etc and Superman would either miss or end up hurting himself.

After that, its anybody's ballgame. Valid tactic for sure. Which is why I give Supes and Mags 3/10. That's all I'm arguing. Superman can reach those speeds. He can't do it in .000001 seconds though from a deadstart. Nothing I've seen indicates this. In fact, every posted scan with context indicates the opposite. 'Speedblitz' is overrated. It should be called 'supersonic blitz' when Superman uses it, cuz Speed Force heroes are the only ones who can reach pwnerz speed levels in .000001 seconds. Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant to me. I've made up my mind until you show me somewhere, where it is absolutely clear he can reach his top speeds .000001 seconds from a deadstart. I've posted three examples (with bean_machine's help) where from a dead start, he only reaches supersonic speeds in instances where you would expect him to go all out: 1) Bloodlusted, with no innocents around in his mind against Doomsday who just killed Lois in 'Sacrifice;' 2) trying to save militants who were being summarily executed in Superman #208; and 3) saving Jimmy Olsen and it is explicitly stated that he is not holding back in Superman #217.

To batdude123: If you want to continue arguing the point that he can reach pwnerz 'speedblitz' levels in .0000001 seconds from a deadstart, all I need is a scan where it shows quite obviously that he can do that. It's all I've been asking for a while now. All you keep doing is posting 'speed feats' that provide me no information as to how quickly he accelerates from a deadstart, it only shows what speed he's reached, not how fast he got to it. I've provided three examples proving he can't accelerate to those pwnerz speed feat levels in .000001 seconds. You continue to allege that I'm ignoring your examples and I'm going to begin insulting you at this point. You're being stupid. You're arguing semantics about how everybody needs to accelerate as if that proves Superman can accelerate .000001 seconds from the start. You allege that its stupid to believe Superman starts at supersonic speeds and then teleports?! into superlight speeds? Yet, WTH are you arguing, that he can teleport to superlight speeds from a deadstart? Then you start ranting about Superman's other abilities as if that was even part of our side debate at all. You're grasping at something I haven't even addressed and trying to use it against me. Its like blaming me for not taking out the garbage when all we've been arguing about is cleaning the kitchen. Shut up now. You're absolutely blinded by some fanboyish attitude. You're non-context examples are apparently good enough but my fully contexted examples are not. You suck at debating and I've lost my patience. Bean_dude gets it and he only started in this argument a few posts ago. Next time I need advice as to how to completely ignore scans and arguments, I'll come to you. Until then, shut the f()ck up.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Point of the matter is, and really, stop posting speed feats. They're not 'speedblitzes.' Not at all. And yes, Flash can accelerate to his fastest speeds in .0000001 seconds IMHO, different than what Superman can do. If you could vizualize, yes, it is almost like one or two seconds of supersonic speeds and then ZOOM light+ speeds. Think of a sports car peeling rubber, it spends a second or two trying to gain grip with its tires and inches along the street and then ZOOM, it shoots forward once the tires have gained grip and the full acceleration potential is realized. I'm not saying the physics are the same, but the concept is. He can start forward at supersonic speeds and needs just those extra seconds to hit the pwnerz 'speed feat' speeds. On a regular battlefield, before he could reach those pwnerz 'speed feat' speeds he'd have already hit Hulk or Dr. Doom at supersonic speeds before being able to reach pwnerz 'speed feat' speeds. Unless he backed up and started from a distance...

That's my whole point. He'd hit them at supersonic speeds if he used a 'supersonic blitz' from the start, like he hit Wonderwoman, like he did in Superman #207 or Superman #217. Point is, I think Dr. Doom's forcefield, though severely taxed, could withstand a 'supersonic blitz.' I also believe Hulk could withstand a 'supersonic blitz.' Same way Wonderwoman took his 'supersonic blitz' in 'Sacrifice.' Unless now we believe Hulk's or Dr. Doom's forcefields are far below Wonderwoman's durability, [b]I don't think Superman's 'supersonic blitzes' will end the battle the instant it starts. That's the main point of the 'speedblitz' debate.

That's something Flash could do with a true 'pwnerz speedblitz.' Not Superman. Now, what were to happen if Superman flew far away enough to get his several second acceleration time needed? Yeah, he'd severely screw up Hulk. I think he might even be able to blow Hulk in half. Hulk would heal if given a chance, but only if Superman or Dr. Doom gives him that chance. If Superman did it to Doom? Doom's computer systems in his armor would see it coming. Those few seconds would be more than enough time for Doom and his computer systems to calculate his tactic. Battle stipulations are that everybody has basic knowledge of each other. Doom would see it coming and use magic bonds, a magic forcefield, short range teleportation, etc and Superman would either miss or end up hurting himself.

After that, its anybody's ballgame. Valid tactic for sure. Which is why I give Supes and Mags 3/10. That's all I'm arguing. Superman can reach those speeds. He can't do it in .000001 seconds though from a deadstart. Nothing I've seen indicates this. In fact, every posted scan with context indicates the opposite. 'Speedblitz' is overrated. It should be called 'supersonic blitz' when Superman uses it, cuz Speed Force heroes are the only ones who can reach pwnerz speed levels in .000001 seconds. Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant to me. I've made up my mind until you show me somewhere, where it is absolutely clear he can reach his top speeds .000001 seconds from a deadstart. I've posted three examples (with bean_machine's help) where from a dead start, he only reaches supersonic speeds in instances where you would expect him to go all out: 1) Bloodlusted, with no innocents around in his mind against Doomsday who just killed Lois in 'Sacrifice;' 2) trying to save militants who were being summarily executed in Superman #208; and 3) saving Jimmy Olsen and it is explicitly stated that he is not holding back in Superman #217.

To batdude123: If you want to continue arguing the point that he can reach pwnerz 'speedblitz' levels in .0000001 seconds from a deadstart, all I need is a scan where it shows quite obviously that he can do that. It's all I've been asking for a while now. All you keep doing is posting 'speed feats' that provide me no information as to how quickly he accelerates from a deadstart, it only shows what speed he's reached, not how fast he got to it. I've provided three examples proving he can't accelerate to those pwnerz speed feat levels in .000001 seconds. You continue to allege that I'm ignoring your examples and I'm going to begin insulting you at this point. You're being stupid. You're arguing semantics about how everybody needs to accelerate as if that proves Superman can accelerate .000001 seconds from the start. You allege that its stupid to believe Superman starts at supersonic speeds and then teleports?! into superlight speeds? Yet, WTH are you arguing, that he can teleport to superlight speeds from a deadstart? Then you start ranting about Superman's other abilities as if that was even part of our side debate at all. You're grasping at something I haven't even addressed and trying to use it against me. Its like blaming me for not taking out the garbage when all we've been arguing about is cleaning the kitchen. Shut up now. You're absolutely blinded by some fanboyish attitude. You're non-context examples are apparently good enough but my fully contexted examples are not. You suck at debating and I've lost my patience. Bean_dude gets it and he only started in this argument a few posts ago. Next time I need advice as to how to completely ignore scans and arguments, I'll come to you. Until then, shut the f()ck up. [/B]

*yawn*

I'm not going to even bother considering it's all a bunch of gibberish. Whether he can hit passed light speed from a deadstart in .0000001 seconds is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. I think you missed my point. The acceleration to the point of a couple hundred times the speed of light in .0000001 was me being overzealous. However, what I've been telling you is that it DOES NOT MATTER ONE SINGLE BIT. Superman CAN and would speedblitz them successfully faster than either could react. You've seen the scan of Northstar messing up Hulk with a speedblitz from before... now multiply Northstar's strength by quintillions of tons, and you'd get Superman. Hulk dies first from a successful speedblitz by Superman, then Doom follows closely after that. Superman and Magneto 10/10.

Originally posted by batdude123
*yawn*

I'm not going to even bother considering it's all a bunch of gibberish. Whether he can hit passed light speed from a deadstart in .0000001 seconds is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. I think you missed my point. The acceleration to the point of a couple hundred times the speed of light in .0000001 was me being overzealous. However, what I've been telling you is that it DOES NOT MATTER ONE SINGLE BIT. Superman CAN and would speedblitz them successfully faster than either could react. You've seen the scan of Northstar messing up Hulk with a speedblitz from before... now multiply Northstar's strength by quintillions of tons, and you'd get Superman. Hulk dies first from a successful speedblitz by Superman, then Doom follows closely after that. Superman and Magneto 10/10.

i think he was mostly agreeing with you.... he just wanted to know how fast could superman go from a dead start it's really kinda off topic

Originally posted by lando005
i think he was mostly agreeing with you.... he just wanted to know how fast could superman go from a dead start it's really kinda off topic

I understand that, however it doesn't take a couple of seconds to reach said speeds like he's saying. It took him a TOTAL of two seconds to reach the sun itself. What he's getting at is a bit of a fallacy.

Anyway, Superman speedblitzes Doom and Hulk ftw.

There are plenty of ways for the team 2 to win.

Superman could just go and have a sun bath, he could do some serious orbital bombarding with mega size asteroids and moons. Yet he could even speedblitz all of them into oblivion.

magneto wouldn't know what would of happened... he's be like "superman let's... oh you've beaten them already... oh well I'll say I beat them on my own"

Originally posted by MattDay
magneto wouldn't know what would of happened... he's be like "superman let's... oh you've beaten them already... oh well I'll say I beat them on my own"

🙂 ✅

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
BTW, thanks for providing me context for your speed feats. Oh whoops... you still haven't. Nice to see when my illustration encapsulates what you're debating skills amount to that you have to resort to ignoring it rather then addressing it. I have that effect on people. It's called shutting people up and making them move on. [b]This is point one where you fail. You can rectify this by giving me context of those speed feats, which I've repeatedly asked for. That way, I can analyze them in the same way you have. If not, you fail.

And now you're apparently agreeing that Superman needs momentum to reach top speeds... but that momentum is instantaneous. I've been attacking this premise from the very start and you keep pointing to average speeds or, "Well if he can reach those speeds, his acceleration must be instantaneous." You know what that is? That's assuming your conclusion before you prove it. Its the most basic form of logical fallacy. This is point two where you fail. You can rectify this by showing me instances where he is able to reach those speeds ".000000001 seconds" from a dead start. If you can't, you're simply assuming and you fail.

[/B]

I hope this helps
First lets assume that superman generates a constant force as he travels all his might (since He doesn't get stronger when using all his might). This means he should have a constant acceleration.
If superman can fly to jupiter in about 3 minutes. Then he can travel about 4.2AU (This is the closest distance jupiter and earth can be and 1AU=93000000 miles or 93000000x5280ft) in about 3 minutes. So d=.5a t^2 (assumming beginning distance and velocity are zero)which implies that a=2d/t^2= 22,915,200,000ft per sec^2. But t=sqrt(2d/a)=.000004sec if d=20ft
Thus if they start 20ft from each other then superman can cover this in .00004 secs (or 4 hundred-thousandths of a sec). Where as a 600mph bullet can cover 20ft in .023 sec (t=d/r).
So superman can cover a distance of 20ft over 540times faster than that of a bullet.
Man that is fast. His speedblitz rules.

Originally posted by h1a8
I hope this helps
First lets assume that superman generates a constant force as he travels all his might (since He doesn't get stronger when using all his might). This means he should have a constant acceleration.
If superman can fly to jupiter in about 3 minutes. Then he can travel about 4.2AU (This is the closest distance jupiter and earth can be and 1AU=93000000 miles or 93000000x5280ft) in about 3 minutes. So d=.5a t^2 (assumming beginning distance and velocity are zero)which implies that a=2d/t^2= 22,915,200,000ft per sec^2. But t=sqrt(2d/a)=.000004sec if d=20ft
Thus if they start 20ft from each other then superman can cover this in .00004 secs (or 4 hundred-thousandths of a sec). Where as a 600mph bullet can cover 20ft in .023 sec (t=d/r).
So superman can cover a distance of 20ft over 540times faster than that of a bullet.
Man that is fast. His speedblitz rules.

applying real-life physics to comic books is always going to be shady. Flash? Hulk ?

O btw : Superman doens't START at fullspeed at 20ft distance (therefore the math isn't exactly correct), he has to accelerate. All those needlessly long equations sure were impressive though!

Magneto and SM win

This is a pretty good fight. I think I'd favor Doom in a fight over Magneto, and Superman vs. Hulk really depends on how Superman approaches the fight.

This is a good fight either way.

Originally posted by batdude123
-flew across the galaxy in moments

-flew to one of Jupiter's moon in a couple minutes

-flew to the sun in seconds

mmm