Zack (FF7) vs Jecht (FFX)

Originally posted by TacDavey
Squall has a whole game where we see what he is capable of. Jecht has NO examples of what he can do. THAT'S why we don't know. We never see him do anything. Ever. The same cannot be said of Squall, and I gave you plenty of reasons in the Could vs Squall debate as to why I think Cloud tops Squall.

Yeah sure... His intro... I could beat Squall if I had a sword there. We're off topic. Zack wins, hands down. And Cloud defeated Sephiroth but he isn't stronger than him, Zack is dead so we can't compare Cloud with him either.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, Jecht was the FInal Aeon, he functioned as the heart of Sin but he wasn't Sin itself. Tidus and pals would have been completely obliberated if they tried to battle Sin the same way they battled Braska's Final Aeon, they are not the same being. That's why Sin can destroy cities and use gigagraviton but Jecht has nothing even close to this level of power.

Fascistcrusader, I'm sorry but you are simply incorrect. It states in the game that Jecht is sin. That's why he went to the dream world and brought Tidus over. That's why singing the song of the faith calms it, because Jecht liked that song.

Tell me. If sin never died, where did it go for ten years? Was it sleeping?

The final summoning consists of one of the guardians becoming the final aeon, defeating sin, and then being reborn as sin once that evil bug looking thing takes you over.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yeah sure... His intro... I could beat Squall if I had a sword there. We're off topic. Zack wins, hands down. And Cloud defeated Sephiroth but he isn't stronger than him, Zack is dead so we can't compare Cloud with him either.

No, not his intro, I mean his whole game.

I mist disagree, I don't think Zack fighting all by himself would be able to defeat the final aeon anymore than I think Zack fighting all by himself would beat sin.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
And Cloud defeated Sephiroth but he isn't stronger than him,

Wait, hold on. How is this relevant at all? What does Cloud vs Sephiroth have to do with Zack vs Final Aeon Jecht?

Originally posted by TacDavey
I mist disagree, I don't think Zack fighting all by himself would be able to defeat the final aeon anymore than I think Zack fighting all by himself would beat sin.

I didn't know this was Final Aeon Vs. Zack, I thought this was Jecht Vs. Zack.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, absolutely. Cloud is obviously stronger than Zack, though many fans of Zack are loath to admit it. Easy example, Zack lost to Sephiroth, Cloud beat Sephiroth.

And Cloud defeated Sephiroth but he isn't stronger than him, Zack is dead so we can't compare Cloud with him either.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I didn't know this was Final Aeon Vs. Zack, I thought this was Jecht Vs. Zack.

It was originally, but I think we concluded that we couldn't know because we never see what Jecht can actually do. Then we moved on to final aeon Jecht.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
And Cloud defeated Sephiroth but he isn't stronger than him, Zack is dead so we can't compare Cloud with him either.

Just because someone is dead doesn't mean we can't debate who would win.

If you defeat someone, it usually means you are stronger than them.

Jecht wins for being the manliest mother****er in Final Fantasy's entire ****ing existence!

None can defeat t3h Drowningball supastar!

Originally posted by TacDavey
It was originally, but I think we concluded that we couldn't know because we never see what Jecht can actually do.

Just because someone is dead doesn't mean we can't debate who would win.

If you defeat someone, it usually means you are stronger than them.

What the hell? You claimed that a super-human > normal human.

We can, but that's unfair. Obviously that Cloud is stronger than Zack NOW.

No in Cloud's case.

As stated before, I think Zack could take on the Final Aeon Jecht because he's had experience taking on colossal super powered mosters before.( I'm just repeating something to stay on topic)

When I asked, "Was Cloud more powerful than Zack?", I didn't necessarily mean Cloud could beat Zack.( We all know that's not true) However since Cloud was given a mako shower and pure Jenova cells at beyond lethal levels and still lived, wouldn't that make Cloud potentially stronger than Zack?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What the hell? You claimed that a super-human > normal human.

Yes, that's right. We still don't know what Jecht can do, so we can't make an accurate assessment.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
We can, but that's unfair. Obviously that Cloud is stronger than Zack NOW.

Now is what we care about.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No in Cloud's case.

Save it for the Squall vs Cloud debate.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
As stated before, I think Zack could take on the Final Aeon Jecht because he's had experience taking on colossal super powered mosters before.( I'm just repeating something to stay on topic)

Maybe, but since Jecht defeated Sin, that implies that he is stronger than sin, or at least pretty close. I don't think Zack could beat sin by himself. With a team, maybe, not alone.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
When I asked, "Was Cloud more powerful than Zack?", I didn't necessarily mean Cloud could beat Zack.( We all know that's not true)

Oh here we go... Of course Cloud beats Zack.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
However since Cloud was given a mako shower and pure Jenova cells at beyond lethal levels and still lived, wouldn't that make Cloud potentially stronger than Zack?

I think Zack went through the same thing, didn't he? It failed though because he already had the soldier enhancements. Don't know if Clouds enhancements are better or not.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Jecht never beat Sin, seeing as how it was alive and kicking for Tidus and pals. Beating the Final Aeon is not even close to synomous with being able to fight Sin. Zack would defeat Braska's Final Aeon Jecht handily but that doesn't mean he could defeat Sin itself.

Ok, first I don't like the a>b>c logic no offense intended, and according to X, Final Aeon beat Sin, so with that route Final Aeon is > Sin, and it seems you're saying Zack won't beat Sin (...I don't think the cast of X, VIII or VII as a group can, without some kind of PIS/CIS like summoning some being to do the work...have you seen Sin's showings in the X CGI's?) so then Zack beating the Final Aeon using this method is more unlikely to happen. Besides as I mentioned earlier showings should IMO be considered first and not who beat who. There can be circumstances we're not aware of and a lot of the fights aren't really shown and are just "played out" like the X crew beating the Final Aeon...in fact some PIS/CIS was involved. Hint: Tidus' voice...and this is actually confirmed because his voice lowers the Final Aeon's stats...

Also, Sin came back, if I recall correctly. Jecht became the Aeon then killed Sin, but there was no eternal calm dude...Sin comes about every 2 years.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes, that's right. We still don't know what Jecht can do, so we can't make an accurate assessment.

I don't understand. We don't know about many characters from the series such like Vaan but you dare to say that Tidus wins because we don't know what Vaan can do, and now you don't know if Zack (a super-human) can beat Jecht a human who has been defeated by Tidus because we don't know what he can do...? Sorry, I don't quite understand you.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Save it for the Squall vs Cloud debate.

For what? Everyone knows that anyway.

Ok, first I don't like the a>b>c logic no offense intended, and according to X, Final Aeon beat Sin, so with that route Final Aeon is > Sin, and it seems you're saying Zack won't beat Sin (...I don't think the cast of X, VIII or VII as a group can, without some kind of PIS/CIS like summoning some being to do the work...have you seen Sin's showings in the X CGI's?) so then Zack beating the Final Aeon using this method is more unlikely to happen. Besides as I mentioned earlier showings should IMO be considered first and not who beat who. There can be circumstances we're not aware of and a lot of the fights aren't really shown and are just "played out" like the X crew beating the Final Aeon...in fact some PIS/CIS was involved. Hint: Tidus' voice...and this is actually confirmed because his voice lowers the Final Aeon's stats...

Also, Sin came back, if I recall correctly. Jecht became the Aeon then killed Sin, but there was no eternal calm dude...Sin comes about every 2 years.

Sin comes back because Sin and the FInal Aeon aren't synonymous. There is always a Final Aeon within Sin, but Sin itself exists apart from these beings. This is why Sin always returns and killing the Final Aeon only stops it temporarily.

Jecht as the FInal Aeon is not infinitely larger than humans like Sin, FA Jecht cannot use devastating attacks like Giga Graviton like Sin, FA Jecht doesn't have the durability of Sin, etc. Defeating the Final Aeon in battle is possible and was done by a group of warriors much weaker than Zack, defeating Sin in a straight fight is impossible unless you're someone with godlike levels of power, it can only be killed by destroying it's true center, Yu Yevon.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I don't understand. We don't know about many characters from the series such like Vaan but you dare to say that Tidus wins because we don't know what Vaan can do, and now you don't know if Zack (a super-human) can beat Jecht a human who has been defeated by Tidus because we don't know what he can do...? Sorry, I don't quite understand you.

I said, in the Vaan debate, that if we go SOLELY on what we know of him, he would loose. I never said he would loose because we don't know about him. We actually know more about Vaan than we do Jecht anyway.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Sin comes back because Sin and the FInal Aeon aren't synonymous. There is always a Final Aeon within Sin, but Sin itself exists apart from these beings. This is why Sin always returns and killing the Final Aeon only stops it temporarily.

Jecht as the FInal Aeon is not infinitely larger than humans like Sin, FA Jecht cannot use devastating attacks like Giga Graviton like Sin, FA Jecht doesn't have the durability of Sin, etc. Defeating the Final Aeon in battle is possible and was done by a group of warriors much weaker than Zack, defeating Sin in a straight fight is impossible unless you're someone with godlike levels of power, it can only be killed by destroying it's true center, Yu Yevon.

I'm sorry, you are just incorrect. Jecht is sin, they state it all throughout the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1chqaabx4o

Skip ahead in this video to 9:00, and that is only one example of where they say it. Further more, singing the song of the faith calms him because it is revealed that Jecht really liked that song.

Jecht is sin, you are going to have to deal with this.

Also, you basically take down sin by yourself before going into him.

No, champ, I'm afraid Jecht is the heart of Sin, not SIn itself. Hell, Jecht isn't even really it's heart, Yu Yevon is. Let me simplify this for you:

This is Jecht as the Final Aeon:

This is Sin:

Notice how Sin is a large whale like creature that existed long before Jecht came into existence. It also continued to exist after his defeat. Notice how Jecht resides within Sin as a part of it. Notice that Sin is controlling Jecht, not the other way around.

Jecht is not Sin, he is the Final Aeon within Sin.

Jecht can exert influence over Sin and does so throughout the course of the game, usually when the "Hymn of the Fayth" is playing.

For the most part Jecht is under the control of Sin's destructive nature, his breakthroughs are the exception, not the rule. He isn't Sin itself, he's a part of Sin, but fighting Jecht is not fighting the Sin as a whole. It would be like Godzilla having a sentient heart, fighting his heart inside him is not fighting Godzilla.

The only point I'm trying to make here is that Zack is able to easily defeat Braska's Final Aeon, and that that doesn't mean he could take down SIn in a one on one battle as Tac Davey so ludicrously suggested.

What the hell does that even have to do with this thread?

When I said Zack manhandles Jecht, Final Aeon form or no, Tac Davey was saying Zack couldn't beat Sin and people gave him too much credit, which is irrelevent as BFA and Sin are not synonymous.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, champ, I'm afraid Jecht is the heart of Sin, not SIn itself. Hell, Jecht isn't even really it's heart, Yu Yevon is. Let me simplify this for you:

This is Jecht as the Final Aeon:

This is Sin:

Notice how Sin is a large whale like creature that existed long before Jecht came into existence. It also continued to exist after his defeat. Notice how Jecht resides within Sin as a part of it. Notice that Sin is controlling Jecht, not the other way around.

[b]Jecht is not Sin, he is the Final Aeon within Sin. [/B]

fascistcrusader, this is getting old. The line from the game is "My old man is sin." How can that be any more clear? They say it IN THE GAME that once the final aeon defeats sin IT IS REBORN AS SIN. This is all taken directly from the game, deal with it. I even gave you video evidence.

On top of that, the final Aeon has to defeat sin regardless, since that's what final aeons do. So even if I do accept your idea that Jecht is not sin, and I CERTAINLY do not, final Aeon Jecht is still the thing that beat sin.

Without a team, I don't think Zack stands a chance. That means that Zack could take on the whole FFX crew by himself, and I really doubt that. Zack is nothing more than a good soldier with a few bio enhancements. He's not a god people.

Tac, you're just being ridiculous now. Sin is much greater than any FA, FF X makes that extremely clear given that everytime someone kills the FA in it comes back.

The Final Aeon is much, much weaker than the whole of Sin, that's why Summoner's have no hope of defeating Sin externally and can only destroy the Final Aeon within. They have to go inside and defeat it's heart, because the real Sin is too much to handle.