Fantastic Four vs X-Men

Ah here tis:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Farseer
"This is similar to being a small child again, where you played fictional games that were entirely based in the mind and were so far from reality that saying "Well I can do this" was all that was required to have those abilities within the confines of the game. Unfortunately this is a debate about something which while fictional, does have some basis in reality. No there is no real life Spider-man, but the world that it's set in still has the same physical laws. Of course sometimes these physical laws are stretched to accomodate the many feats of the characters involved, but this is usually due to the powers of the fictional characters. If you really want to get into a physics debate, the Flash doesn't make a lot of sense. He can move at close to light speed (I think, but I admit I'm not 100% sure) and by the well known E=mc2, he would collapse under his increasing weight as he doesn't have super strength, as mass increases in proportion to speed. So no we can't set in stone that someone can and can't do something in the comics, but for these debates we have to assume that it's set in our world, since theirs is based on it, but changes so frequently that you could never come to a stisfactory outcome due to the fact that literally anything could happen.

I think a question that really needs to be answered is: Why have the trio fans been completely incabale of actually providing solid evidence as to how the trio would win, or come up with a realistic (again realistic in this setting is itself open to debate) scenario in which the trio beats Spidey. It has been shown repeatedly that the comics themselves are so far flung at different times that what has happenend at various times cannot provide a solid basis for debate. For example in the comics, Spidey has sent Wolvie flying at one point (I believe the pic is somewhere in this thread) just by backhanding him, next I've seen (I'm positive that this pic is in here) Wolvie breaking free of the webbing despite having also seen (I dunno where these pics would be) spidey's webbing hold much stronger people than Wolverine. The comics are so inconsistant that simply looking at what characters have done in the past is more or less irrelevant. The only thing that trio fans have said about them winning is that if Wolverine stabbed Spidey, it's over for him. This is true but the keyword here is if. There's no reasonable explanation as to why Spidey would put himself in the position where he could be stabbed. There's no good reason (especially since he now has organic webbing and doesn't have to worry about canisters running out) why spidey would get in range of wolvie's claws, at least no until he's webbed him sufficiently and can just walk up and choke him/throw him in the water (or however he choses to get around Wolverine's healing). Wolverine has no range, and no chance of catching Spidey if Spidey doesn't want to get close. I've sortof dismissed Cap and DD here but there doesn't really seem to be much debate on that fact that they'd be taken out very quickly and at almost no effort from SM. Now unless you can show solid evidence as to why the trio might win (and I don't mean just quoting this post and saying I'm wrong/stupid/biased etc, I mean actually coming up with a way that they could pull it off). I'm not even a particularly big fan of Spidey, I've always rather liked the X-men, but I can see here that this fight would end with Spidey spinging around making silly comments long after the other 3 are dead/immobile.

I have mentioned nothing about Spidey winning "because of something he did one time in the comics", and I have spidey winning. I don't want to hear anything about Wolvering having ripped through webbing once, jumped 3 floors once, stabbed Spidey once or any of that other stuff based solely on comic inconsistencies. If you can't come up with a trio-victory situation based solely on what they can and can't do, as shown by their stats/powers (which are created by Marvel so that's what the creators say they can/can't do) then please don't be offended by people laughing at you and ignoring you for being a fanboy with nothing constructive to bring to the debate. "

Said the pot to the kettle.- Creshosk.

Pathetic

Originally posted by whobdamandog
No the best was the time the moderator pm'd him and told him not to PM anymore...that was classic...😆

Ah yes, after I whooped him to the point that he put me on ignore.
He soon after resorted to reporting me to the mods, AFTER I was on his ignore list, how was he reading my posts?

The mods came on the threads and chewed him out. A few samples.

"Creshock, please stop clicking that report button unless it's really necessary. Cordera is pointing out where you were in error, not bashing you. If Cordera said "STFU n00b! I 3at your mother for breakfast! Argh! I'll kill you all, ya ****************** sons of ******** chicken ********* goose *******!!111111111oneeleven11!" then you can click it."

"Creshosk, please, stop flooding the bin with pointless reports"-Paola

Originally posted by stormfront13
whoopings? please, you said a few things you thought you could hurt me with. hardly a whooping.

Ahh, the old "if I try hard enough I can change the past" thing...nice.

Originally posted by stormfront13
everything here is an assumption. you are even assuming when you say that emma won't beat sue. you are assuming that sue could take the entire team of x-men.

Not everything is an assumption, first of all. Second, I'm basing it on substantial evidence like the, oh, victory that Sue has over Emma.

Originally posted by stormfront13
yes, I think we have established that, and I am not doubting the fact that sue beat emma, but sue beat emma because sue had time to protect herself. without that force-field, sue would have lost.

Without his strength, Hulk would have died under the mountain. What's your point? You're saying Sue is lucky that she used her powers? How stupid is that?

Originally posted by stormfront13
claiming someone can do something just because you want them to is rather ridiclous too hugh?

Yes, it is.

Originally posted by stormfront13
i GET it from YOU. you said that sue's powers should move at the speed of thought because they are activated by her mind, and by your logic, everyones powers should move at the speed of thought.

This is where reading my post comes in handy. I said Sue's powers move at the speed of thought because she beat a telepath. I also said Sue's powers come from her mind. You made the connection.

Originally posted by stormfront13
where is all this talk about controlling the stars coming from? you are bringing an entirely different subject in here for no reason. I didn't bring any talk about controlling stars.

You were referring to the sun. I'm praying to every deity out there that you knew the sun is a star.

Originally posted by stormfront13
you keep saying sue's powers do move at the speed of thought, you're assuming as well.

I'm not. She beat a telepath to the punch, what more proof to you need? She acted faster than the telepath could read it.

Originally posted by stormfront13
you have no evidance, you have your own opinions and assumptions about what you think, but it's not evidance. it's your own beliefs. storm has caught jean by suprise, polaris has caught jean by suprise, and everybody else at her wedding, storm has caught dark phoenix by suprise. does that mean that both storm and polaris move at the speed of thought, no. they can just use their powers very quickly.

Wait, do you know what the speed of thought is? Any mind powers mutant has speed of thought powers. If Storm wills the clouds to part through her thoughts, that's operating at the speed of her thoughts. Some speeds are, as they have a habit of being, faster than others. Sue was faster than Emma. When you're faster than a telepath with your mind, I'd say that's proof.

Originally posted by stormfront13
many people have taken telepaths by suprise, magneto, storm, polaris, and many others.

See above.

Originally posted by stormfront13
in the contest of champions, cambit and gladiator did not fight. that is entirley a different series.

Yes, I'm aware.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Ahh, the old "if I try hard enough I can change the past" thing...nice.-AC

I'm not really trying to change the past, it already happened and I can't fix it. it doesn't really bother me.

Not everything is an assumption, first of all. Second, I'm basing it on substantial evidence like the, oh, victory that Sue has over Emma.

over half of everything here is assumption. and once again, sue had the victory over emma because emma was too cocky and told sue what she was going to do. that's not evidance that sue's powers move at the speed of thought.

You're saying Sue is lucky that she used her powers? How stupid is that?

no, I'm saying that sue is lucky emma told her what she was going to do. if emma had just acted instead of talking to sue, then she would have taken sue bcause sue's powers aren't as fast as the speed of thought where as emma's are.

Yes, it is

then why do you do it?

This is where reading my post comes in handy. I said Sue's powers move at the speed of thought because she beat a telepath. I also said Sue's powers come from her mind. You made the connection.

so what if she beat a telepath, so did storm, magneto, and poalris, that doesn't mean that they move at the speed of thought. they may be avtivated at the speed of thought, but their powers don't move at the speed of thought.

You were referring to the sun. I'm praying to every deity out there that you knew the sun is a star.

yes, I obviously knew the sun was a star, but I never said storm was controlling the sun now did I?

I'm not. She beat a telepath to the punch, what more proof to you need? She acted faster than the telepath could read it.

many people have beaten a telepath to the punch, so now they have super-speed? how do you know that emma was even reading sue? that's assumption. if a telepath always knew what they're opponent was going to do then why did storm suprise dark phoenix? why did polaris get the chance to reverse the blood-flow of everyone at her wedding?

Any mind powers mutant has speed of thought powers. If Storm wills the clouds to part through her thoughts, that's operating at the speed of her thoughts. Some speeds are, as they have a habit of being, faster than others. Sue was faster than Emma. When you're faster than a telepath with your mind, I'd say that's proof.

alright, I don't quite get what your trying to say but......storm may access her powers at the speed of thought, but that doesn't mean that they work at the speed of thought. if she parts the clouds, the clouds aren't going to move at the speed of thought when they part. and when they fought, sue knew the attack was coming and had time to prepare, that's why she won. she wasn't faster than emma, she just had "prep" time you could call it. if your faster than a telepath, then that doesn't mean that your powers move at the speed of thought, going by this, many people in the marvel universe would be faster than the speed of thought.

Then why wouldn't Sue use her powers as quickly as possible this time to stop Emma.

NB Emma can use telepathy in diamond form now...

Originally posted by newjak86
Then why wouldn't Sue use her powers as quickly as possible this time to stop Emma.

because sue's powers don't move at the speed of thought where as emma's can. emma would have gotten to sue before the shield was put up

Originally posted by stormfront13
because sue's powers don't move at the speed of thought where as emma's can. emma would have gotten to sue before the shield was put up

Proof for this being...

Can I ask (anyone), what does pis mean? Cis? Anyone?

ACOEUORABUTIAMWSTWAAPTTRK?

What is this ready set go. If Emma understands that she can't wait then Sue will as well who won last time they fought exactly.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's not being biased. That's you not liking it. The FACT here is that Sue is powerful enough to take out all of them singularly. Possibly all at once save for Emma. Who she has beat one on one.

You don't realize how baised you sound?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, I'm denying it because it's false. Continue harping on it all you like.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Where? I'm not sure if he does or he doesn't, I'm not his accessoriser, nor are you. So neither of us are in a place to say that due to the rules, he is allowed no weapons.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not, nor have I ever, scripted it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Where in the rules does it state NO gadgets?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It states nothing that they wouldn't NORMALLY carry around in a chance encounter, right? My point above was that we don't know if Reed does or doesn't carry stuff around.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's all. Either way I believe he's quite formidable on his own. He can more or less take Wolverine straight out of the fight IF he so chose.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Perfect reply. So it's not major prep? Minor prep then. Reed already knows the X-Men well. That's not prep but it's probably all he needs as I'm sure we can agree.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes but being prepared doesn't count as prepping for a specific fight. We still don't know if Reed carries gadgets. To be honest, we don't need to find out because he can hold his own without them. I'm just saying neither of us know the answer. So we may as well agree to the stipulation that if he has something he regularly carries with him that could do the job, he's allowed to use it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That was connected to my point about us not knowing if Reed has anything on him regularly. If he does he should be allowed to use it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You claimed that I said we should bend the rules for the F4. I never.

But it's not the same thing. Reed doesn't always carry gadgets on him. So why should he suddenly be allowed to have the right weapon on him?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Who said that? I said she could have an extremely good chance of taking out the specified three and with another three formidable members on her team, fighting the same people....following?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The FACT here is that Sue is powerful enough to take out all of them singularly.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No it's not. That was all part of my point about the possibility of Reed carrying gadgets. The general feel here is that if you don't know something, dismiss it. Which is wrong. We don't know if Reed has a gadget so we assume he doesn't? That's what I mean by being unfair and unequal.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah. By equal I meant if he has gadgets, let him use them. Provided he regularly carries specified items.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's quite apparant I didn't say that, haven't said it, nor would I ever say it. So lets drop this whole "I'm gonna assume what his comment means" shall we? Goodie.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Aha, you just proved a point for me, cheers.

It's a random encounter, this fight. Reed doesn't always have his gadgets on, but this time...he might. Who knows? My point is again, don't rob him of something he MAY have. Just because he might NOT have it, don't go and say that he DOESN'T have it. It's like saying Cyclops might not have his visor on this random encounter, so therefore he won't have it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Unless he happens to have it on him.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And those are what I am going by.

"let's bend the rules a bit for him."

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
How is it prep if, on a random encounter, he has a weapon? How is that prep? You are saying that because he doesn't always have gadgets, he shouldn't have them.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's a random encounter so he might have them.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't know if Reed does OR doesn't carry stuff with him. Nor do you.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So my point is that we shouldn't take it in either way by giving him weapons or taking them away. I'm saying that we should just recognise the possibility.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not bending the rules, nor am I trying to. So stop being a child.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Possible? Yes. Likely? Not psychologically. If Sue caught Emma off guard and got the better of her, then made the claim, it wouldn't do much good. Psychologically Sue would have said it before she acted if she wanted to psyche her out.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Now who's being biased?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, "prep". Hence why you put it in inverted commas.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't, but since you wanted to get into psychology, I've proven why psychologically it's not likely that she was.[/]b

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
[B]Well considering the comment followed the action, I'd say you have the burden to prove it's not proven. Because that would suggest it was.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I know about 5 people, close friends and family, who suffer from it. It doesn't change the fact that area of sight isn't relevant to a claustrophobic. My mother has had attacks in glass elevators. It's a fear of being in enclosed or confined spaces. It's got nothing to do with sight.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's false, because I've had many experiences that disprove you and on top of that, you're factually wrong. Claustrophobia is a fear of enclosed or confined spaces.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I am. I've taken you to the woodshed multiple times.

In your opinion.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
All you do is twist, misinterpret and mirror. You're not doing anything but replying. You're not proving anything, nor are you countering anything. As proven by this post.

-AC

Originally posted by stormfront13
over half of everything here is assumption. and once again, sue had the victory over emma because emma was too cocky and told sue what she was going to do. that's not evidance that sue's powers move at the speed of thought.

So we've gone from everything being assumption, to over half. Statistics won't help you here. They're more for leaning on than illumination, like a streetlamp to a drunk guy.

It is evidence because Emma is a telepath. Sue reacted too fast for Emma to THINK about how to defend herself and act it out. That's ALL there is to it.

Originally posted by stormfront13
no, I'm saying that sue is lucky emma told her what she was going to do. if emma had just acted instead of talking to sue, then she would have taken sue bcause sue's powers aren't as fast as the speed of thought where as emma's are.

Sue caught Emma off guard. Emma telling Sue what SHE was going to do has nothing to do with it. Sue didn't tell Emma, but Emma still would have known because she's a telepath. Sue reacted too fast. It's ALL there.

Originally posted by stormfront13
then why do you do it?

I'm not. You not thinking Sue's powers can't operate at the speed of thought and me knowing they can, are two different things.

Originally posted by stormfront13
so what if she beat a telepath, so did storm, magneto, and poalris, that doesn't mean that they move at the speed of thought. they may be avtivated at the speed of thought, but their powers don't move at the speed of thought.

Now you're just showing that you don't know what you're talking about. Please take a seat. There isn't one singular speed of thought. Bear that in mind.

Originally posted by stormfront13
yes, I obviously knew the sun was a star, but I never said storm was controlling the sun now did I?

I didn't say you did. I was making a point.

Originally posted by stormfront13
many people have beaten a telepath to the punch, so now they have super-speed? how do you know that emma was even reading sue? that's assumption. if a telepath always knew what they're opponent was going to do then why did storm suprise dark phoenix? why did polaris get the chance to reverse the blood-flow of everyone at her wedding?

I don't know, I'M not a telepath. The point is, Sue claims her powers move at the speed of thought. Emma obviously has reason to believe so, as do I. In the split seconds that Sue initiated her actions, any telepath would have known, because it wasn't a surprise attack. Emma didn't know because Sue reacted too fast. Faster than the RELEVANT speed of thought.

Originally posted by stormfront13
alright, I don't quite get what your trying to say but......storm may access her powers at the speed of thought, but that doesn't mean that they work at the speed of thought. if she parts the clouds, the clouds aren't going to move at the speed of thought when they part. and when they fought, sue knew the attack was coming and had time to prepare, that's why she won. she wasn't faster than emma, she just had "prep" time you could call it. if your faster than a telepath, then that doesn't mean that your powers move at the speed of thought, going by this, many people in the marvel universe would be faster than the speed of thought.

You have no idea what you're talking about, or what I'm talking about. As always, you're trying to discuss things you don't know.

If they are activated at the speed of thought, that's how the operate.

Sue outsmarted a telepath. She was faster than her. You are agreeing with me in everything you say and then denying it with some "but that's not how it works."

Sue beat Emma because she was faster. That's all there is to it, really.

Originally posted by newjak86
Then why wouldn't Sue use her powers as quickly as possible this time to stop Emma.

It's likely that she would, given the history. Sue has protection against Emma. You'll never hear that from X-Fans though.

-AC

Originally posted by newjak86
What is this ready set go. If Emma understands that she can't wait then Sue will as well who won last time they fought exactly.

Originally posted by Creshosk

And my significant other doesn't feel enclosed or confined if she can see out.

I think having an airtight bubble around the head (or head and body), restricting movement, would make anyone claustrophobic, let alone those who already have the disposition.

People are misunderstanding the speed of thought - speed is a ratio of distance over time. The property that should be compared is the latency time of attack. Telepathic assault is effectuated with zero latency time once initiated.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You mean when there was the plot device of Emma posturing?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So we've gone from everything being assumption, to over half. Statistics won't help you here. They're more for leaning on than illumination, like a streetlamp to a drunk guy.

It is evidence because Emma is a telepath. Sue reacted too fast for Emma to THINK about how to defend herself and act it out. That's ALL there is to it.

Emma was posturing, had emma been acting it would be more beleiveable.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue caught Emma off guard. Emma telling Sue what SHE was going to do has nothing to do with it. Sue didn't tell Emma, but Emma still would have known because she's a telepath. Sue reacted too fast. It's ALL there.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not. You not thinking Sue's powers can't operate at the speed of thought and me knowing they can, are two different things.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Now you're just showing that you don't know what you're talking about. Please take a seat. There isn't one singular speed of thought. Bear that in mind.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't know, I'M not a telepath. The point is, Sue claims her powers move at the speed of thought. Emma obviously has reason to believe so, as do I. In the split seconds that Sue initiated her actions, any telepath would have known, because it wasn't a surprise attack. Emma didn't know because Sue reacted too fast. Faster than the RELEVANT speed of thought.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If they are activated at the speed of thought, that's how the operate.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue outsmarted a telepath. She was faster than her. You are agreeing with me in everything you say and then denying it with some "but that's not how it works."

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sue beat Emma because she was faster. That's all there is to it, really.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's likely that she would, given the history. Sue has protection against Emma. You'll never hear that from X-Fans though.

Originally posted by newjak86
So she postured then they fought and Sue won. All it did was give her extra time. Plus do thet even know they are fighting each other cause then FF would already have ways to stop Emma's telepathy and if it is just random encounter why is Emma gonna instantly mind wipe Sue and why Wouldn't Sue use her powers as soon as she saw Emma.

Torch is going to try and go nova, Sue is going to try and well, brain bubble them. . .

And Emma is going to know this before hand, well as soon as the fight starts.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
People are misunderstanding the speed of thought - speed is a ratio of distance over time. The property that should be compared is the latency time of attack. Telepathic assault is effectuated with zero latency time once initiated.

Isn't it slightly fatuous to attempt to scientifically rationalise something that doesn't actually exist?

Do we know that Sue's attacks are slower (in the comic world, or by adhering to the above rationale)?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I think having an airtight bubble around the head (or head and body), restricting movement, would make anyone claustrophobic, let alone those who already have the disposition.

Playing on her claustraphobia is actually pretty damned stupid:

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Isn't it slightly fatuous to attempt to scientifically rationalise something that doesn't actually exist?

Do we know that Sue's attacks are slower (in the comic world, or by adhering to the above rationale)?

We don't know how fast they actually are. There was a plot device in play at the time. . .