Fantastic Four vs X-Men

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He doesn't NEED weapons.

Its nothing wrong that you think that, but it would just be fair to the forum.

Its not just for this debate, its for debates like batman, where people use weapons that seem foreign to their standard arsneal.

It should just be listed in the beginning of the thread to have a fair match with no complaints.

Like I stated before, the core players are Emma and Sue, their survival is contingent on them being protected and critical for their victory.

However cyclops could hold back thing and reed, but thing could hold back wolverine, and reed could as well.

Storm and torch are second cards to emma and sue.

Since this is a match with NO pis, and CIS is included, there will be no ultra brain bubbles, nor supernova's that prove fatal for wolverine. Likewise cyclops won't remove his visor on a character that would be fatal. So the FF are at a slight disadvantage from this aspect, since they can't use these abilities that would be game enders against big time villans.

No PIS either, in a comic book batman would give superman or flash trouble, but that isn't happening here, as flash could get rid of bats quite easily, as would supes. A PIS example.

Also while telepathy is possible, Emma must be protected as well, so its alot OF factors in a fight this big, unlike a one on one battle.

So one team can win over the other, just because of sheer numbers, ANY attack can be critical and a turning point in this matchup.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Some things never ever change. -AC

I know, your still acting like an egotistical 2 year old.

Sue beat Emma because Emma is too confident and Sue spanked her for her troubles. No if's, and's or but's about it. Emma messed up and Sue took her out.

yes, I agree that Emma was too confident....last time. this time Emma would know better and be able to take her out. sue won because Emma was being stupid and decided to take the time and tell sue what she was going to do. it's like this: if someone was going to shoot me, and they showed me the gun and told me that they were going to shoot me. If I could protect myself from all harm, then I would, because I know the attack is coming and could take me out. it's human nature to protect yourself. sue was doing what was natural, she was protecting herself from oncoming danger.

Sue said it, which means the writers say she can. What more proof do you want? You're actually gonna call the writers liars?

alright, storm said she could shut-down a persons heart, by your logic the writers are saying it. so now are we to assume that she actually can, and would do it? if you said no, then you would be calling the writers liars.

Sue claiming she can use her powers at the speed of thought (considering it's her mind that creates this powers) isn't a wild claim. It's very believable and provable. Storm using the power of the stars isn't.

fine, by your logic then everyones powers move at the speed of thought considering every power is activated by the mind. actually storm using sun lasers is believable. by controlling the glassine fragments in the clouds, she reflects them off the sun creating so called "sun-lasers". since clouds are part of the weather, then they are in storms control.

Bubble around her head and she's gone.

actually no, storm is dealing with her claustrophobia, and is starting to become resistant to it. also when she fought black tom and the juggernaut, she was fine once she saw the sky and could fly. in an invisible bubble, she will be able to fly and be able to see the sky. also if it's invisible would she even be able to notice that it's there? even if it somehow does affect her, do you really want storm going insane like she did when doom did the same thing?

Storm's powers do not in anyway involve "sun-lasers"

I already explained that.

Sue has proven her power on many occasions so the speed on which she uses them isn't out of the question. Let's not get hung up on this.

actually it is in question, if Emma takes her out, then the x-men win easy. you have no proof that her powers move at the speed of thought, where as tp does. she may use her powers fast, but so does storm, so does that mean that they move at the speed of thought too?

Jonny fires faster than Storm can conjure wind.

actually no, in contest of champions 2, storm was turning a corner and right when she turned johnny shot a blast, and storm easily dodged it, and it was at a very close range, only a few feet. seeing as she flies by manipulating the wind she is as fast as johnny.

I think the X-Men takes this.

Originally posted by Creshosk
That you're being baised for habving an opinon that differs from mine. 😉

Or are only you allowed to claim that? 😕

That's not being biased. That's you not liking it. The FACT here is that Sue is powerful enough to take out all of them singularly. Possibly all at once save for Emma. Who she has beat one on one.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Denial again. 😛

Yes, I'm denying it because it's false. Continue harping on it all you like.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So he never carries gadgets and he always carries gadgets. . . It's amazing how you can contradict yourself in a single paragraph like that. It's truly awe inspiring.

Where? I'm not sure if he does or he doesn't, I'm not his accessoriser, nor are you. So neither of us are in a place to say that due to the rules, he is allowed no weapons.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So now I'm being basied for scripting a non-existent fight in favour of those I want to win, but you aren't being baised, even though you are scripting a non-existant fight in favour of those you want to win?

I'm not, nor have I ever, scripted it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh, right that's your gig. . . I'm supposed to call you old man in retort for calling me boy right?

Do whatever you want.

Originally posted by Creshosk
The rules say that.

With prep and gadgets reed owns these mutie freaks. . .

Where in the rules does it state NO gadgets? It states nothing that they wouldn't NORMALLY carry around in a chance encounter, right? My point above was that we don't know if Reed does or doesn't carry stuff around. That's all. Either way I believe he's quite formidable on his own. He can more or less take Wolverine straight out of the fight IF he so chose.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Who said major?

Perfect reply. So it's not major prep? Minor prep then. Reed already knows the X-Men well. That's not prep but it's probably all he needs as I'm sure we can agree.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Binging a weapon to a fight, indicates you knew about the fight before hand, unless you always carry it on you, then it's just being prepared.

Yes but being prepared doesn't count as prepping for a specific fight. We still don't know if Reed carries gadgets. To be honest, we don't need to find out because he can hold his own without them. I'm just saying neither of us know the answer. So we may as well agree to the stipulation that if he has something he regularly carries with him that could do the job, he's allowed to use it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
If you do not regularly carry it with you, then prep is required to retreive said item.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Wolverine's claws are part of him physically. He always has his claws with him. . . he doesn't need prep to get his claws, just as the thing doesn't need prep to get his rocks.

That was connected to my point about us not knowing if Reed has anything on him regularly. If he does he should be allowed to use it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Who ever this AC person is. . .

You claimed that I said we should bend the rules for the F4. I never.

Originally posted by Creshosk
so Sue could take these four at the same time. Gotcha. 😑

Who said that? I said she could have an extremely good chance of taking out the specified three and with another three formidable members on her team, fighting the same people....following?

Originally posted by Creshosk
But it's unequal without them, remember?

No it's not. That was all part of my point about the possibility of Reed carrying gadgets. The general feel here is that if you don't know something, dismiss it. Which is wrong. We don't know if Reed has a gadget so we assume he doesn't? That's what I mean by being unfair and unequal.

Originally posted by Creshosk
See?

Yeah. By equal I meant if he has gadgets, let him use them. Provided he regularly carries specified items.

Originally posted by Creshosk
"Let's bend the rules for the FF"

It's quite apparant I didn't say that, haven't said it, nor would I ever say it. So lets drop this whole "I'm gonna assume what his comment means" shall we? Goodie.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Wolverine always has his claws with him, Reed doesn't always have his gadgets with him.

Aha, you just proved a point for me, cheers.

It's a random encounter, this fight. Reed doesn't always have his gadgets on, but this time...he might. Who knows? My point is again, don't rob him of something he MAY have. Just because he might NOT have it, don't go and say that he DOESN'T have it. It's like saying Cyclops might not have his visor on this random encounter, so therefore he won't have it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Prep is needed to aquire these weapons.

Unless he happens to have it on him.

Originally posted by Creshosk
KMC rules are what we default to.

And those are what I am going by.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Who says it doesn't caount as prep? You.
Who says it counts as prep? KMC Rules.
Who's trying to bend the rules? You.
Who's being unfair? "-AC"

How is it prep if, on a random encounter, he has a weapon? How is that prep? You are saying that because he doesn't always have gadgets, he shouldn't have them. It's a random encounter so he might have them. I don't know if Reed does OR doesn't carry stuff with him. Nor do you. So my point is that we shouldn't take it in either way by giving him weapons or taking them away. I'm saying that we should just recognise the possibility.

I'm not bending the rules, nor am I trying to. So stop being a child.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Hyperion was posturing, so its possible sue was as well. You can't always count on what a character is saying to the other person during a battle when its a pschological warfare tactic intended to psyche the other person out.

Possible? Yes. Likely? Not psychologically. If Sue caught Emma off guard and got the better of her, then made the claim, it wouldn't do much good. Psychologically Sue would have said it before she acted if she wanted to psyche her out.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Still seems like posturing to me.

Now who's being biased?

Originally posted by Creshosk
she had "prep".

Yes, "prep". Hence why you put it in inverted commas.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And obviously you know more about the character than the writer does. . . Since you know for sure that she definitly wasn't posturing.

I don't, but since you wanted to get into psychology, I've proven why psychologically it's not likely that she was.

Originally posted by Creshosk
The claim that her poer does move at the speeed of thought.

Well considering the comment followed the action, I'd say you have the burden to prove it's not proven. Because that would suggest it was.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Sure lecture someone who's loved one suffers from the phobia, obviously they don't know as much about it with their secondhand knowledge, than someone with third hand knowledge does.

I know about 5 people, close friends and family, who suffer from it. It doesn't change the fact that area of sight isn't relevant to a claustrophobic. My mother has had attacks in glass elevators. It's a fear of being in enclosed or confined spaces. It's got nothing to do with sight.

Originally posted by Creshosk
They have to feel trapped. if they can see out then they don't feel as trapped.

That's false, because I've had many experiences that disprove you and on top of that, you're factually wrong. Claustrophobia is a fear of enclosed or confined spaces.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Tired of being shut down?

"Stop responding to my posts!"

Why don't you start countering mine, instead of responding for the sake of responding? 😉

I am. I've taken you to the woodshed multiple times.

All you do is twist, misinterpret and mirror. You're not doing anything but replying. You're not proving anything, nor are you countering anything. As proven by this post.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's not being biased. That's you not liking it. The FACT here is that Sue is powerful enough to take out all of them singularly. Possibly all at once save for Emma. Who she has beat one on one.

Yes, I'm denying it because it's false. Continue harping on it all you like.

Where? I'm not sure if he does or he doesn't, I'm not his accessoriser, nor are you. So neither of us are in a place to say that due to the rules, he is allowed no weapons.

I'm not, nor have I ever, scripted it.

Do whatever you want.

Where in the rules does it state NO gadgets? It states nothing that they wouldn't NORMALLY carry around in a chance encounter, right? My point above was that we don't know if Reed does or doesn't carry stuff around. That's all. Either way I believe he's quite formidable on his own. He can more or less take Wolverine straight out of the fight IF he so chose.

Perfect reply. So it's not major prep? Minor prep then. Reed already knows the X-Men well. That's not prep but it's probably all he needs as I'm sure we can agree.

Yes but being prepared doesn't count as prepping for a specific fight. We still don't know if Reed carries gadgets. To be honest, we don't need to find out because he can hold his own without them. I'm just saying neither of us know the answer. So we may as well agree to the stipulation that if he has something he regularly carries with him that could do the job, he's allowed to use it.

Agreed.

That was connected to my point about us not knowing if Reed has anything on him regularly. If he does he should be allowed to use it.

You claimed that I said we should bend the rules for the F4. I never.

Who said that? I said she could have an extremely good chance of taking out the specified three and with another three formidable members on her team, fighting the same people....following?

No it's not. That was all part of my point about the possibility of Reed carrying gadgets. The general feel here is that if you don't know something, dismiss it. Which is wrong. We don't know if Reed has a gadget so we assume he doesn't? That's what I mean by being unfair and unequal.

Yeah. By equal I meant if he has gadgets, let him use them. Provided he regularly carries specified items.

It's quite apparant I didn't say that, haven't said it, nor would I ever say it. So lets drop this whole "I'm gonna assume what his comment means" shall we? Goodie.

Aha, you just proved a point for me, cheers.

It's a random encounter, this fight. Reed doesn't always have his gadgets on, but this time...he might. Who knows? My point is again, don't rob him of something he MAY have. Just because he might NOT have it, don't go and say that he DOESN'T have it. It's like saying Cyclops might not have his visor on this random encounter, so therefore he won't have it.

Unless he happens to have it on him.

And those are what I am going by.

How is it prep if, on a random encounter, he has a weapon? How is that prep? You are saying that because he doesn't always have gadgets, he shouldn't have them. It's a random encounter so he might have them. I don't know if Reed does OR doesn't carry stuff with him. Nor do you. So my point is that we shouldn't take it in either way by giving him weapons or taking them away. I'm saying that we should just recognise the possibility.

I'm not bending the rules, nor am I trying to. So stop being a child.

Possible? Yes. Likely? Not psychologically. If Sue caught Emma off guard and got the better of her, then made the claim, it wouldn't do much good. Psychologically Sue would have said it before she acted if she wanted to psyche her out.

Now who's being biased?

Yes, "prep". Hence why you put it in inverted commas.

I don't, but since you wanted to get into psychology, I've proven why psychologically it's not likely that she was.

Well considering the comment followed the action, I'd say you have the burden to prove it's not proven. Because that would suggest it was.

I know about 5 people, close friends and family, who suffer from it. It doesn't change the fact that area of sight isn't relevant to a claustrophobic. My mother has had attacks in glass elevators. It's a fear of being in enclosed or confined spaces. It's got nothing to do with sight.

That's false, because I've had many experiences that disprove you and on top of that, you're factually wrong. Claustrophobia is a fear of enclosed or confined spaces.

I am. I've taken you to the woodshed multiple times.

All you do is twist, misinterpret and mirror. You're not doing anything but replying. You're not proving anything, nor are you countering anything. As proven by this post.

-AC

Said the pot to the kettle... 😆

Can't you two battle each other in private...
AC it seems like you're basing your entire argument on the supposition that "Reed might have this or that..."

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Its nothing wrong that you think that, but it would just be fair to the forum.

Its not just for this debate, its for debates like batman, where people use weapons that seem foreign to their standard arsneal.

It should just be listed in the beginning of the thread to have a fair match with no complaints.

Like I stated before, the core players are Emma and Sue, their survival is contingent on them being protected and critical for their victory.

However cyclops could hold back thing and reed, but thing could hold back wolverine, and reed could as well.

Storm and torch are second cards to emma and sue.

Since this is a match with NO pis, and CIS is included, there will be no ultra brain bubbles, nor supernova's that prove fatal for wolverine. Likewise cyclops won't remove his visor on a character that would be fatal. So the FF are at a slight disadvantage from this aspect, since they can't use these abilities that would be game enders against big time villans.

No PIS either, in a comic book batman would give superman or flash trouble, but that isn't happening here, as flash could get rid of bats quite easily, as would supes. A PIS example.

Also while telepathy is possible, Emma must be protected as well, so its alot OF factors in a fight this big, unlike a one on one battle.

So one team can win over the other, just because of sheer numbers, ANY attack can be critical and a turning point in this matchup.

PIS..CIS..I know that Spiderman isn't involved in this debate..but why is it that only Spiderman supporters are able to use PIS/CIS arguments? 😄

Originally posted by stormfront13
I know, your still acting like an egotistical 2 year old.

Haha, good one. Still sore from all the whoopings I gave you eh? You're the biggest Storm fanboy I've ever encountered, so things don't change. Evidently.

Originally posted by stormfront13
yes, I agree that Emma was too confident....last time. this time Emma would know better and be able to take her out.

You know this how? Where are you getting this "would" from? That's just you saying it. It's not true, or proven. It's an assumption.

Originally posted by stormfront13
sue won because Emma was being stupid and decided to take the time and tell sue what she was going to do. it's like this: if someone was going to shoot me, and they showed me the gun and told me that they were going to shoot me. If I could protect myself from all harm, then I would, because I know the attack is coming and could take me out. it's human nature to protect yourself. sue was doing what was natural, she was protecting herself from oncoming danger.

She didn't just protect herself. She beat Emma.

Originally posted by stormfront13
alright, storm said she could shut-down a persons heart, by your logic the writers are saying it. so now are we to assume that she actually can, and would do it? if you said no, then you would be calling the writers liars.

I've seen her do it, so therefore it's valid. Claiming someone can't do something just because you don't think they can or don't want them to, is rather ridiculous.

Originally posted by stormfront13
fine, by your logic then everyones powers move at the speed of thought considering every power is activated by the mind.

Where do you GET all this from? Man you're stupid.

Originally posted by stormfront13
actually storm using sun lasers is believable.

To you, yes. Because you believe anything to do with Storm.

Originally posted by stormfront13
by controlling the glassine fragments in the clouds, she reflects them off the sun creating so called "sun-lasers". since clouds are part of the weather, then they are in storms control.

Yes, but controlling stars isn't. You can bring out all the science in the world, Storm is nowhere near in control of her powers enough to control stars. Fact. Fanboy all you want, she's not. She can barely control Earth elements when she's maxed out. Let's not forget the brick incident.

Originally posted by stormfront13
actually no, storm is dealing with her claustrophobia, and is starting to become resistant to it. also when she fought black tom and the juggernaut, she was fine once she saw the sky and could fly. in an invisible bubble, she will be able to fly and be able to see the sky. also if it's invisible would she even be able to notice that it's there? even if it somehow does affect her, do you really want storm going insane like she did when doom did the same thing?

Ironic how X-Men writers are slowly but surely ridding the X-Men of all their weaknesses. It must be a dream come true.

You are continually saying "She will..." when you don't know this. You're assuming.

Originally posted by stormfront13
I already explained that.

It's still not true and it's still not believable to anyone who has common sense of comics.

Originally posted by stormfront13
actually it is in question, if Emma takes her out, then the x-men win easy. you have no proof that her powers move at the speed of thought, where as tp does.

She took Emma out by surprise. Emma is a telepath. How much more proof do you need? I have situational evidence backing me up. You have none. There is more to suggest Sue's powers operate at the speed of thought than there is to suggest they do not.

Originally posted by stormfront13
she may use her powers fast, but so does storm, so does that mean that they move at the speed of thought too?

I don't know where you're getting this pathetic leaps of logic from.

Sue took a telepath by surprise. Why are you not getting this?

Originally posted by stormfront13
actually no, in contest of champions 2, storm was turning a corner and right when she turned johnny shot a blast, and storm easily dodged it, and it was at a very close range, only a few feet. seeing as she flies by manipulating the wind she is as fast as johnny.

In Contest of Champions Gladiator lost to Gambit via cards to the head. Chris Claremont will do absolutely anything to give the X-Men a win. So I hardly think that's a worthwhile reference. Claremont believes Wolverine could slash Surfer open. If you'll take his word you'll believe anything.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Said the pot to the kettle... 😆

I've not purposefully twisted or misintepreted any of his posts. He has done this same thing to me.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I know about 5 people, close friends and family, who suffer from it. It doesn't change the fact that area of sight isn't relevant to a claustrophobic. My mother has had attacks in glass elevators. It's a fear of being in enclosed or confined spaces. It's got nothing to do with sight.

-AC

I myself suffer from severe claustrophebia, and I know how it feels. I feel the same way when I'm in an elevator, but storm is different. I already have given an example of when she was having an attack and as soon as she saw the sky and could fly she was fine. now when a bubble is surrounding her, she can still fly, and can still see the outside. your mother and storm are 2 different people and may have different fellings tword something like this.

Originally posted by stormfront13
I myself suffer from severe claustrophebia, and I know how it feels. I feel the same way when I'm in an elevator, but storm is different. I already have given an example of when she was having an attack and as soon as she saw the sky and could fly she was fine. now when a bubble is surrounding her, she can still fly, and can still see the outside. your mother and storm are 2 different people and may have different fellings tword something like this.

When Storm saw the sky and flew out, she was completely free wasn't she?

No bubbles or anything restricting her or her oxygen.

Big difference.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've not purposefully twisted or misintepreted any of his posts. He has done this same thing to me.

-AC [/B]

Just an in joke Alpha..you have to read the SM vs Cap/DD/Wolvie threads and SM vs Batman threads to know what I'm talking about..that's one of Cresh's favorite retorts..lol..

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Can't you two battle each other in private...
AC it seems like you're basing your entire argument on the supposition that "Reed might have this or that..."

Originally posted by whobdamandog
PIS..CIS..I know that Spiderman isn't involved in this debate..but why is it that only Spiderman supporters are able to use PIS/CIS arguments? 😄

I feel left out... I haven't been insulted by AC yet. 🙁 😄

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I feel left out... I haven't been insulted by AC yet. 🙁 😄

neither have i...

That's because I don't insult people for no reason, or regularly.

If you post like an idiot, I'll call you an idiot. If you act like a child, I'll call you a child.

Insults are all in how you take them.

-AC

Originally posted by EsteemedLeader
neither have i...

Well if you want a couple of insults you can go back to the SM vs Batman thread..I owned you pretty bad over there.. 😉

Please, thats nothing like the ownage on spiderman vs trio and spiderman vs wolverine.

I'm trying to find the kettle to the pot, post.

No the best was the time the moderator pm'd him and told him not to PM anymore...that was classic...😆

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Haha, good one. Still sore from all the whoopings I gave you eh? You're the biggest Storm fanboy I've ever encountered, so things don't change. Evidently.-AC

whoopings? please, you said a few things you thought you could hurt me with. hardly a whooping.

You know this how? Where are you getting this "would" from? That's just you saying it. It's not true, or proven. It's an assumption.

everything here is an assumption. you are even assuming when you say that emma won't beat sue. you are assuming that sue could take the entire team of x-men.

She didn't just protect herself. She beat Emma.

yes, I think we have established that, and I am not doubting the fact that sue beat emma, but sue beat emma because sue had time to protect herself. without that force-field, sue would have lost.

Claiming someone can't do something just because you don't think they can or don't want them to, is rather ridiculous.

claiming someone can do something just because you want them to is rather ridiclous too hugh?

Where do you GET all this from? Man you're stupid

i GET it from YOU. you said that sue's powers should move at the speed of thought because they are activated by her mind, and by your logic, everyones powers should move at the speed of thought.

Yes, but controlling stars isn't. You can bring out all the science in the world, Storm is nowhere near in control of her powers enough to control stars. Fact. Fanboy all you want, she's not. She can barely control Earth elements when she's maxed out. Let's not forget the brick incident.

where is all this talk about controlling the stars coming from? you are bringing an entirely different subject in here for no reason. I didn't bring any talk about controlling stars.

You are continually saying "She will..." when you don't know this. You're assuming.

you keep saying sue's powers do move at the speed of thought, you're assuming as well.

She took Emma out by surprise. Emma is a telepath. How much more proof do you need? I have situational evidence backing me up. You have none. There is more to suggest Sue's powers operate at the speed of thought than there is to suggest they do not

you have no evidance, you have your own opinions and assumptions about what you think, but it's not evidance. it's your own beliefs. storm has caught jean by suprise, polaris has caught jean by suprise, and everybody else at her wedding, storm has caught dark phoenix by suprise. does that mean that both storm and polaris move at the speed of thought, no. they can just use their powers very quickly.

Sue took a telepath by surprise. Why are you not getting this?

many people have taken telepaths by suprise, magneto, storm, polaris, and many others.

In Contest of Champions Gladiator lost to Gambit via cards to the head. Chris Claremont will do absolutely anything to give the X-Men a win. So I hardly think that's a worthwhile reference. Claremont believes Wolverine could slash Surfer open. If you'll take his word you'll believe anything.

in the contest of champions, cambit and gladiator did not fight. that is entirley a different series.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When Storm saw the sky and flew out, she was completely free wasn't she?

No bubbles or anything restricting her or her oxygen.

Big difference.

-AC

yes, but the difference here is that she will already be able to fly and see the sky. also she won't be restricted air, just a bit of water and electricity to create oxygen.