Originally posted by Fishy
Every style is just an improvement of another... If what you say is true then there is only one style, and what Mace did remains impressive because he thought of a new extension.
A new extension he could hardly control.
There only is one style. The rest are just broken up and placed with names and factions. They are all advancements of another Form. So, yes, Mace's form is just an advancement to another Form.
Jesus, Sorgo, did you wake up cranky today.
I'm gonna say this once and you either concede the point or I'm done fighting with your stubborn ass:
GL's companies sanction EU works and they sanction the novelisations, and the games and comics and the coloring books, etc. But when it comes to proof, here at KMC we rely mostly on Ush's definition of canon and quasi-canon. And we've decided that novelisations (Which are distinctly different from other EU works) are not even worthy of quasi-canon simply because they reflect an author's viewpoint on something GL has already gone over point by point. Other EU novels are not ilumped into this category because GL hasn't written things like 'Shatterpoint' or anything; therefore unless they say something totally outrageous (Like Obi-Wan defeated Sidious with a broom) they stand.
Originally posted by Darth_Janus
Jesus, Sorgo, did you wake up cranky today.I'm gonna say this once and you either concede the point or I'm done fighting with your stubborn ass:
GL's companies sanction EU works and they sanction the novelisations, and the games and comics and the coloring books, etc. But when it comes to proof, here at KMC we rely mostly on Ush's definition of canon and quasi-canon. And we've decided that novelisations (Which are distinctly different from other EU works) are not even worthy of quasi-canon simply because they reflect an author's viewpoint on something GL has already gone over point by point. Other EU novels are not ilumped into this category because GL hasn't written things like 'Shatterpoint' or anything; therefore unless they say something totally outrageous (Like Obi-Wan defeated Sidious with a broom) they stand.
So, anotherwards, A Youngling can pwn Dooku?
Originally posted by Sorgo
He advanced another style. That's.... Just....It!
No...because he's not using Juyo any longer. Compare Maul to Mace and tell me they are using the same or an familiar style. Vaapad is not Juyo and not advanced Juyo. It's Mace personal completion of Juyo (so Juyo combined with other forms) and therefore not simple advanced Juyo.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No...because he's not using Juyo any longer. Compare Maul to Mace and tell me they are using the same or an familiar style. Vaapad is not Juyo and not advanced Juyo. It's Mace personal completion of Juyo (so Juyo combined with other forms) and therefore not simple advanced Juyo.
Maul uses a Double bladed lightsaber so the form is put into a whole new context.
Vapaad is Juyo advanced. It isn't a whole new form.
Originally posted by Sorgo
Vapaad is Juyo advanced. It isn't a whole new form.
It's based on Juyo but isn't Juyo. That's the point. It's something that Mace created and the fact he did that in the age of 13 is quite impressive.
And can you please give me a single argument why Obi-Wan should be able to take Mace ?
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It's based on Juyo but isn't Juyo. That's the point. It's something that Mace created and the fact he did that in the age of 13 is quite impressive.And can you please give me a single argument why Obi-Wan should be able to take Mace ?
When most of the moves he does looks like something from Juyo, then yes, it is still a large part of Juyo.
Why should Mace win? Why is he so special? Because he "apparently" defeated Mace? Right....
Or wait.... Because he chopped Jango's head off.
OR BECAUSE HE IS A REALLY GOOD SABER FIGHTER!
And Obi Wan isn't? C'mon! Obi Wan is a great Lightsaber duelist, being why he totally chopped Anakin's shit up.
Originally posted by Sorgo
Why should Mace win?
That was no answer to my question.
So Obi-Wan should win because he could beat Anakin ? Mace was on par with Dooku and Yoda. Dooku kicked Obi-Wan and Anakin around as if they were little kids. And now Obi-Wan should win against somebody that is on par with Dooku ?
I don't think so...
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
That was no answer to my question.So Obi-Wan should win because he could beat Anakin ? Mace was on par with Dooku and Yoda. Dooku kicked Obi-Wan and Anakin around as if they were little kids. And now Obi-Wan should win against somebody that is on par with Dooku ?
I don't think so...
You are comparing someone elses win to another person? That is like saying Sidious can kick Dooku's ass because Yoda apparently beat Dooku and Sidious beat Yoda.
Sorgo,
The Star Wars official site says that Mace defeated Sidious on his own - without Sidious faking or manipulating the battle. I cite the databank as a reliable source - though I've been told otherwise.
Before that, I thought Sidious faked - as Anakin's arrival was spot on accurate. And then when you compare Sidious's battle with Yoda, he fought much more aggressively and stronger. But that isn't the issue.
Obi-Wan is the poster-child for Jedi. He is a good duelist, to be sure. But nothing spectacular. He relies on his wit, courage, and experience to get him through obstacles - and the occasional bout of luck. He's strong in the Force - but he doesn't seem to be on par with Yoda or Mace.
Mace is cited as being one of the greatest duelists of the Order. His style of Vaapad is aggressive and he uses it to identify a weakness or in this case - shatterpoint - of his opponents. Whether or not Vaapad holds any weight in this argument is unknown. Only Yoda and Dooku - the two greatest PT duelists - have ever defeated him. And Dooku did that before TPM - where Mace could have significantly improved.
Yoda also told Obi-Wan that he couldn't defeat Sidious. But Mace did, even if it wasn't a battle of the Force. So, knowing all of that, my money is on Mace.
Originally posted by Darth Somebody
Sorgo,The Star Wars official site says that Mace defeated Sidious on his own - without Sidious faking or manipulating the battle. I cite the databank as a reliable source - though I've been told otherwise.
Before that, I thought Sidious faked - as Anakin's arrival was spot on accurate. And then when you compare Sidious's battle with Yoda, he fought much more aggressively and stronger. But that isn't the issue.
Obi-Wan is the poster-child for Jedi. He is a good duelist, to be sure. But nothing spectacular. He relies on his wit, courage, and experience to get him through obstacles - and the occasional bout of luck. He's strong in the Force - but he doesn't seem to be on par with Yoda or Mace.
Mace is cited as being one of the greatest duelists of the Order. His style of Vaapad is aggressive and he uses it to identify a weakness or in this case - shatterpoint - of his opponents. Whether or not Vaapad holds any weight in this argument is unknown. Only Yoda and Dooku - the two greatest PT duelists - have ever defeated him. And Dooku did that before TPM - where Mace could have significantly improved.
Yoda also told Obi-Wan that he couldn't defeat Sidious. But Mace did, even if it wasn't a battle of the Force. So, knowing all of that, my money is on Mace.
And Dooku did that before TPM - where Mace could have significantly improved.
I am guessing Dooku has gotten worse since before TPM?
I didn't think so.
Mace isn't the only one who has vastly improved since before TPM, Somebody.
The Star Wars official site says that Mace defeated Sidious on his own - without Sidious faking or manipulating the battle. I cite the databank as a reliable source - though I've been told otherwise.
Do you plan on telling me where it says Mace defeated Sidious without Sidious faking or manipulating anything, please? Thank you.
A respected Jedi on par with the venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council. His wisdom and experience were legendary, and his words carried great weight.
In the later years of the Republic, Windu spent most of his time in the Jedi Temple of Coruscant. He regularly conferred with Yoda and the ten other members of the Council, contemplating the very nature of the Force and the affairs of the Jedi Knights.
Windu was well schooled in Jedi philosophy and history. He knew of the ancient prophecy of the Chosen One who would return balance to the Force. When maverick Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn approached the Council with a prospective candidate to fulfill that prophecy, Windu was hesitant. With reservations, he agreed that the child, Anakin Skywalker, could be tested for Jedi potential.
Though Anakin had the highest midi-chlorian count on record, and indeed showed great potential, the Council and Windu decided that he was not to be trained. He was too old to begin the life of a Jedi. After Qui-Gon's death, the Council rescinded their original decision, and granted Obi-Wan Kenobi permission to train Anakin Skywalker. Still, Windu fostered a mistrust of Skywalker, feeling that he was too powerful for his age and too unpredictable.
Windu, a diplomat by nature, believed in the power of words over action. But as the galaxy found itself increasingly fragmented by the rise of a powerful secessionist movement, he grew to question some of his firmest held beliefs.
He thought it impossible that the Separatist leader, former Jedi Count Dooku, could be behind the escalating flashpoints of violence in the galaxy. Such aggression was not in his character, Mace reasoned.
When an intelligence report from Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi revealed the Separatists gearing up for war, Windu came to realize that the time for negotiation had passed. Though he reminded the Supreme Chancellor that the Jedi were peacekeepers and not soldiers, as the Clone Wars began, the Jedi found themselves leading platoons of clone troopers into battle.
Reversals such as these troubled Master Windu, for they came about too suddenly, and the usually prescient Jedi were unprepared. Something was clouding the future, and the order's very connection to the Force was weakening. That a Sith Lord existed somewhere in the galaxy, was not in doubt but could this shadowy villain really bring this much imbalance to the Force?
At the first engagement on Geonosis, Windu arrived ahead of the clone trooper army with a Jedi taskforce. He was there to free Jedi held captive by Count Dooku. In the battle that ensued, Windu faced Dooku's hired gun, bounty hunter Jango Fett. Though Fett had proven himself deadly against other Jedi, he was no match against Windu. The Jedi Master repeatedly deflected Jango's incoming blasts, and quickly decapitated the hunter with his lightsaber.
As the Clone Wars erupted on Geonosis, Windu led a special squad of commando clone troopers into the thick of battle. He would be one of the few Jedi to return unscathed from that first engagement... at least physically. His spirit would suffer in the years that followed.
Though the Jedi were loyal protectors of the galaxy, facing war on the battlefronts in command of the clones, Windu felt uncertain about the direction of the Republic. As the war carried on year after year, Supreme Chancellor Palpatine amassed more political power, modifying the Galactic Constitution in the name of security. A wary Windu grew to distrust Palpatine, and he feared that the Chancellor would make a move to take direct control of the Jedi Council.
Palpatine's first step in that direction appeared to be the installation of a personal representative on the Jedi Council. The Chancellor requested that Anakin Skywalker, his close associate, be appointed to the ruling body. The Council, surprisingly, agreed. They hoped to use Anakin as a conduit of information, to learn of the Chancellor's dealings. It was a difficult decision, indicative of the stressful times. Windu had deep reservations -- it was very dangerous, he sensed, to keep Anakin and Palpatine close together.
His concern was justified. Chancellor Palpatine was, in fact, Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord that had escaped Jedi detection all this time. It was Anakin Skywalker who loyally delivered news of this discovery to Windu, though the Jedi Master still did not fully trust the young Jedi. Mace gathered a team of his finest Jedi warriors -- Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto -- to arrest the Chancellor. Though Skywalker wished to accompany Windu, the Jedi Master forbade it. He ordered Skywalker to stay in the Council chambers until the matter was resolved.
The Jedi barged into Palpatine's most private offices. Mace attempted to arrest the Chancellor, but Palpatine sprang into action. Brandishing a lightsaber, Palpatine dropped the guise of harmless politician and emerged as deadly Sith Lord. Sidious quickly killed Tiin, Kolar and Fisto and forced Windu back into the main office chamber. Just then, Anakin Skywalker arrived, disobeying Windu's direct order.
Windu had disarmed Sidious and cornered the treacherous Sith Lord into the frame of his expansive office window. Fearing that Sidious was too powerful to take prisoner -- the Dark Lord still had control of the Senate and courts -- Windu moved to deliver a deathblow. Torn between his loyalties, and needing Palpatine alive to fulfill his quest for arcane knowledge to preserve the life of his beloved, Anakin acted. In an emotionally charged action, Anakin ignited his lightsaber blade and sheared off Mace Windu's weapon hand before he could strike Palpatine.
Defenseless, Windu was bombarded with Sith lightning as Sidious unleashed a torrent of deadly energy at the Jedi Master. The forked bolts of lightning penetrated Mace's body, illuminating his form from within. The final blast bodily lifted him into the air, sending his form hurling into the Coruscant skies, to crash lifelessly somewhere in the vast cityscape below.
.
It's in Palpatine's biography - or Sidious's (they have separate ones) I believe.
Now, you mis-understand. Two people can start out with one of the two having the advantage over the other. Yet over time, the weaker one can improve faster or greater than the one who originally had the advantage until they are equal or the second is now superior. This may be the case.
I also don't mean Sidious wasn't lying about the "weak" and "tired" part. Only a fool would believe it. And when Sidious blasted him with Force lightning - Mace was in a struggle for dear life. And as soon as that saber was taken away, Mace was doomed. Instantly.
So no. I don't mean Mace beat his ass easily or that Sidious wasn't lying about when he called himself tired and weak. We all know he wasn't, as Mace's death was shown. THAT was when he tried to make Anakin choose - also because with Mace holding his saber (which is capable of holding even Sidious's lightning down) - he'd have no choice but to wait until a third party (Anakin) disarmed Mace long enough for Sidious to take the advantage.