Fantastic Four vs. these non-psionic X-men!

Originally posted by Creshosk
Who says it's logical? You?

😆 Don't like it? Make your own thread. 🙂

I never said it was logical you applejohn, I said it's not logical. It's not logical to allow him prep and then cut out a possibility that is one of the more likely occurances just because you don't like it.

That's a fact. Don't like it? Don't give him prep.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Although in general that's the manner in which you'd win a debate.

Fair point though. The problem with characters like Reed and Batman is that they do usually find a way, be that what it may. Makes it hard to debate for or against, in a way.

But not speculating you really do present a weaker argument.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I never said it was logical you applejohn, I said it's not logical. It's not logical to allow him prep and then cut out a possibility that is one of the more likely occurances just because you don't like it.

That's a fact. Don't like it? Don't give him prep.

-AC

DON'T give him prep?

Then listen to you complain about how its a part of his character and how you might as well take the claws from wolverine?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Although in general that's the manner in which you'd win a debate.

Fair point though. The problem with characters like Reed and Batman is that they do usually find a way, be that what it may. Makes it hard to debate for or against, in a way.

No premise, just a conclusion, doesn't correlate too well.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No offence, but you can't give Reed prep time, then restrict it.

Realistically if you said to Reed, "Oi mate, you're fighting the X-Men soon. Prep up" he would come with something to win wouldn't he? Being the smartest man on Earth and all that.

So to say he's allowed prep, but not to prep, is a bit ridiculous. I agree with the whole nonsense of "He's Reed!", but bearing in mind that he IS Reed Richards and WITH prep he more than likely could do something like that. Not because of his name, but ability.

-AC

Yeah, but don't you see the problem with that? Reed Richards isn't infallible, right? He's built inventions that have failed, he's come up with plans that have fallen short, and not just against cosmics, but even against ordinary opponents, like the Frightful Four. So the problem is that the "Reed will think of something" argument can't take into account the element of failure because "Reed will think of something" has no points to counter. How can I work with that? How can I disagree with that with facts against an argument that nebulous? That builds in an element of invincibility because there's no way to calculate the odds that he will fail, or no way to calculate the possibility that he CAN'T build something for everybody in an hour. And there's no way that "he'll think of something" can include those possibilities in an equation. So simply saying, "he'll think of something" stacks the deck unfairly in his favor and gives him way too much benefit of the doubt. See what I'm saying?

In order to keep things grounded and tangible, you HAVE to temper it with citations of things he's built on short notice in the past that could be used to prove that he could build a counter for each X-man on only an hour's notice, otherwise...what's the point of adding prep to a battle board?

Yeah.

It's also a negative though, because in using the argument you can't posit an actual method, you have merely to rely on past form.

Oh well. S'only discussing comics on the internet.

Originally posted by demigawd
Yeah, but don't you see the problem with that? Reed Richards isn't infallible, right? He's built inventions that have failed, he's come up with plans that have fallen short, and not just against cosmics, but even against ordinary opponents, like the Frightful Four. So the problem is that the "Reed will think of something" argument can't take into account the element of failure because "Reed will think of something" has no points to counter.

That seemed a good counter.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Now your're being fallicious. You knew what I meant. 😉

DON'T give him prep?

Then listen to you complain about how its a part of his character and how you might as well take the claws from wolverine?

I'm not saying that's a good option, I'm saying if you don't like him with prep, don't give him it. Either way it's a difficult situation.

As Victor said above, then Demigawd followed, saying "Reed will come up with something" is a bit random however likely it is that he would. I agree. You can't really take prep away from a man who uses it all the time, at the same time you can't really fairly limit his prep. But for the purposes of the battle, you might aswell just say allow him to use any gadget he has used before. Don't state it as creation prep, state it as strategising prep.

-AC

Right, which is why I think prep should be out altogether. but, like AC says, if it's a defining characteristic of a character, it's not exactly fair to them, either.

But prep is the ultimate plot device, the greatest deux ex machina, and saying, "he'll think of something" really has no place in a good debate, even if it's how a handful of characters function.

I think the correct way to state THIS stip would be to say he can prep with strategy only then. That's the fairest way to do it even if "He'd come up with something" is a credible point.

-AC

It's not really a deus ex machina if they come up with it before the fight though.

I suppose it's fair to that it should be reasonably specified rather than completely opaque.

Unless it was a deity like entity that was setting down the rules. . . That makes any stipulation beleiveable.

fighting deus ex machina with deus. . .

ok, but if we use prep with strategy, then it's creating specific battle scenarios, which you've lambasted in the past, AC.

So the question is - is there such a thing as a fair battle involving the Fantastic Four, Doom, Batman, Panther, etc. that creates level ground and ample debating room for both them and their opponents?

Originally posted by demigawd
ok, but if we use prep with strategy, then it's creating specific battle scenarios, which you've lambasted in the past, AC.

So the question is - is there such a thing as a fair battle involving the Fantastic Four, Doom, Batman, Panther, etc. that creates level ground and ample debating room for both them and their opponents?

Probably not. Not much we can do about that though. It's almost an irrefragable victory, those guys plus prep-time.

I'm not saying I'm gonna lay out the strategy though. I'm just saying that we should judge the fight on the basis that Reed is gonna go into it with a plan, whatever that may be.

-AC

lol, so then it's a guarantee that someone (AC) is always going to be upset because it's denying FF's key skill, or someone (me) is always going to be upset because I don't have any facts to work with.

Ah well. Screw prep. 😛

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not saying I'm gonna lay out the strategy though. I'm just saying that we should judge the fight on the basis that Reed is gonna go into it with a plan, whatever that may be.

-AC

That's fair, but what's the plan? And if it's just "a plan", then it's the same problem as before. If we don't know the plan, how can we debate its merits?

Well if Reed knows the opponents very well from prepping, the safest assumption to make is that he'll inform the rest of the info he's discovered and given that they are better working as a team than most others, I would also say it's safe to assume that he would work out what members would be best suited to match up with their opponents.

It's too hard to specify because we don't know who will decide what. Just occurances we think might happen.

-AC

Works for The A-Team.

And isn't that, really, all that matters?

Yeah.

Yeah it is.

-AC