amen
but really I think that the best ones for war (by this I mean the Clone Wars, if it were a jedi vs sith conflict then it would be different) would be this:
CLONE WARS
Soresu
Shien-Do
Juyo/Vaapad
Ataru
Shii-Cho
Makashi
Niman
JEDI VS SITH
Makashi
Juyo/Vaapad
Shien-Do
Soresu
Ataru
Shii-Cho
Niman
That's my list for the styles
Personally, I would go with this line up:
Clone Wars-
1) Shien/Djem So
2) Soresu
3) Juyo/Vaapad
4) Ataru
5) Shii-Cho
6) Makashi
7) Niman
Note the emphasis on combat readiness and NOT on saber to saber combat. It rarely happened, so it doesn't need to be devoted to in training. However, the Jedi versus Sith eras of before would be more like this:
1) Makashi
2) Juyo/Vaapad
3) Ataru
4) Shii-Cho
5) Shien/Djem So
6) Soresu
7) Niman
Now, here the emphasis is on duelling and saber to saber combat. Makashi would make a world of difference in combat, and Juyo is another strong variant. Ataru, I believe, yields more promise than Shien because a strong Force user can make the most of it. Shien obviously isn't very different based on Force user talent. Ataru, however, is. (See Yoda as opposed to Qui-Gon Jinn). Next, I labeled Shii-Cho. Yes, Shi-Cho. Why? Well, it's sword combat. Pure and simple. It's the very basics, and if one is exceptionally good with the basics, you will in turn be a very good swordsman. Shien/Djem So doesn't have the focus on fighting saber users that Shii-Cho would, since the latter is derived from ancient swordfighting techniques. Despite Kit Fisto's quick loss, we shouldn't discredit what is perhaps the most solid form of saber fighting under Juyo and Makashi. Ataru beats it out in my listing, but only for sheer aggression and mobility; defensewise, Shii-Cho is better.
Shien/Djem So comes next. While I have a higher opinion of this fighting style than I once did, it still doesn't make it to the high tiers. Why? Well, the focus is on heavy swings and strength, and while it does have some flashy moves, these are not enough to win a battle. Obi-Wan versus Anakin showed many flaws in the form, and that is it canno overcome a superior defense even with strength and speed if the other person gives ground and fights smart. Soresu follows, and although I believe a Jedi with exceptional swordsmanship and force attunement could literally be unbeatable mastering this form, it does not take full advantage of the sword in combat, and thus can only be effectively mixed with another form for full potential.
As for Niman. Meh. Niman is too basic to prove to be strong. People talk of "mastering Niman", but this is in effect learning Juyo. Niman is the equivalent of high school diploma, whereas say Makashi would be a history or math major. It improves and perfects nothing and is in effect inperfect, even if "mastered". Really, this isn't a full style so much as an ad hoc mixup of more superior styles, crammed together in a can and sold to less martial jedi. I'd be surprised if it was even used by any frontline jedi before the Pax republica era.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Erm, well, I get the impression that your biased towards Makashi. . . (end sarcasm)It does get terribly annoying when people go on rants about how Vaapad annihilates darksiders, reflects Dark Side attacks, and allows the user to 'see into the Dark Side'.
Erm. . .well it's only my screenname. LOL. I only put Makashi on top is because when I mean battle, I mean man to man duel not an arena battle like Geonosis. In a battle like that I'd use Ataru.
Vaapad isn't all it's cracked up to be. . .Vaapad lacks in;
1. Style
2. Precision
3. Finesse
If someone with Battle Precog used Soresu, they would be invincible in saber combat.
Well, I think every Jedi has Battle Precog to some degree or another. I mean how else would they be able to predict incoming blasts. If they can predict flying blasts, then why couldn't they predict an incoming swing? I believe every Jedi has Battle Precog, to some or another degree.
Originally posted by Se7in
Well, I think every Jedi has Battle Precog to some degree or another. I mean how else would they be able to predict incoming blasts. If they can predict flying blasts, then why couldn't they predict an incoming swing? I believe every Jedi has Battle Precog, to some or another degree.
Battle Precog is pretty moot in lightsaber battles, seeing as fighters would have it.
Originally posted by Se7in
Well, I think every Jedi has Battle Precog to some degree or another. I mean how else would they be able to predict incoming blasts. If they can predict flying blasts, then why couldn't they predict an incoming swing? I believe every Jedi has Battle Precog, to some or another degree.
Jedi sense are not battle precog. Battle precognition was introduced in KOTOR II. Initially, it is an Echani ability which requires some training. We can assume Echani jedi (Lord Hoth, Atris, The Handmaiden, etc.) can use it to some degree or another. It's basically knowing a move and avoiding it well before it happens. Note that it is distinct and is set apart from jedi attunement; in game play mechanics, it's even a stacked defense value and passive force power.
Now, the Handmaiden does say that (supposively) elder echani masters can use this to predict battles and even whole wars. However, it should be noted that the Handmaiden is sort of naive, and this claim is too much to believe, especially since no elder Echani has ever shown this ability. Yusanis, the highest ranking Echani duellist in the KOTOR era, was defeated by Revan (Who was reputed to use Battle Precognition as well). Obviously, unless Yusanis was an idiot, he didn't know how that battle was gonna turn out. So basically I rule out the overblown possibility of Battle Precognition determining wars. And no, it is NOT a tactical power only, as has been suggested. It's a combat-related power, as described in game. Period.
Question...
I've seen a few lightsaber styles mentioned in a few places (namely on the Completely Unofficial Star Wars Encyclopedia, which in turn got the terms from Labyrint of Evil and the Ep3 Visual Dictionary).
However, I've seen no explanations as to what they are, really.
1) Kai-Kan, all that is mentioned is the stance, which is a lightsaber held in both hands, low across the chest
2) Lus-ma, nothing is mentioned of what it is
3) Ataro, sounds almost exactly like Ataru in description (athletic movements, speed, etc.), except that it has a two-handed defensive posture rather than the offensive capabilities of Ataru
Kai-Kan I cannot connect with anything, I was hoping someone else could.
Lus-ma, nothing can be connected.
Ataro...um...either a subform of Ataru or a precursor to Ataru?
Form I
Millennia before the Clone Wars, advanced technology replaced metal swords with energy-beam lightsabers. In this transition the first Form was born. Jedi Masters created Form I from ancient sword-fighting traditions, since the principles of blade combat remained much the same. The basics of attack, parry, body target zones, and the practice drills called velocities are all here.
Young Jedi still begin their training by learning Form I.
Form II
The ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat became Form II, advancing the precision of blade manipulation to its finest possible degree and producing the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen.
Today Form II is an archaism studied by almost no one in the Jedi Order, because it is not relevant to current tactical situations, in which Jedi enemies rarely fight with lightsabers. Even with the resurgence of the Sith, confrontation of an enemy with a lightsaber is an exceedingly rare prospect for a Jedi, so they continue to focus on more practical Forms. Sith expecting to battle lightsaber-wielding Jedi, however, find Form II a powerful technique.
Form II is the chosen discipline of the machiavellian Separatist Count Dooku, who wields it to devastating effect. His utterly precise moves overwhelm Jedi who are not accustomed to the special requirements of lightsaber dueling. With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda.
Acknowledged practitioners: Count Dooku, Exar Kun
Form III
The third great lightsaber discipline was first developed in response to the advancement of blaster technology in the galaxy. As these weapons spread widely into the hands of evil-doers, Jedi had to develop unique means of defending themselves. Form III thus arose from "laserblast" deflection training. Over the centuries it has transcended this origin to become a highly refined expression of non-aggressive Jedi philosophy. Form III maximizes defensive protection in a style characterized by tight, efficient movements that expose minimal target area compared to the relatively open style of some of the other Forms.
Obi-Wan Kenobi takes up a dedication to Form III after the death of Qui-Gon Jinn (who favored Form IV), since it was apparent to Kenobi that Jinn's defense was insufficient against the Sith techniques of Darth Maul. True Form III masters are considered invincible. Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner.
Even the extraordinarily deadly Jango Fett is unable to penetrate Obi-Wan Kenobi's superb lightsaber defenses.
Acknowledged practitioners: Obi-Wan Kenobi
Form IV
Form IV is the most acrobatic Form, heavily emphasizing Jedi abilities to run, jump, and spin in phenomenal ways by using the Force. Masters of Form IV incorporate all of the ways in which the Force helps them go beyond what is physically possible. Their lightsaber combat is astonishing to watch, filled with elaborate moves in the center of which a Jedi may be all but a blur. Yoda, with his deep emphasis on the Force in all things, is a Form IV master. Form IV was also the chosen discipline of Qui-Gon Jinn and the early choice of his apprentice Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Ordinarily Yoda walks with a slight limp, his ancient body wracked with arthritis and the normal infirmities of old age. In combat however, the diminutive Jedi Master presents extraordinary strength and reflexes - entirely the result of focusing the Force through his physical body and not just his spirit as is his usual emphasis.
Acknowledged practitioners: Yoda, Qui-Gon Jinn
Form V
During an era when Jedi were called upon to more actively maintain the peace in the galaxy, Form V arose alongside Form IV to address a need for greater power among the Jedi. Jedi Masters who felt that Form III could be too passive developed Form V. A Form III master might be undefeatable, but neither could he necessarily overcome his enemy. Form V focuses on strength and lightsaber attack moves. This Form exploits the ability of the lightsaber to block a blaster bolt and turns this defensive move into an offensive attack by deflecting the bolt deliberately towards an opponent. A dedication to the power and strength necessary to defeat an enemy characterizes the philosophy of Form V, which some Jedi describe by the maxim "peace through superior firepower." To some Jedi Knights, Form V represents a worthy discipline prepared for any threat; to others Form V seems to foster an inappropriate focus on dominating others.
As the Clone War begins, Anakin Skywalker dedicates himself to Form V in his increasingly blind quest for strength. As Darth Vader he will still be using Form V when he confronts Obi-Wan Kenobi and later Luke Skywalker.
Acknowledged practitioners: Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker
Form VI
In the time of Palpatine's Chancellorship, Form VI is the current standard in Jedi lightsaber training. This Form balances the emphases of other Forms with overall moderation, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power. It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy, and negotiation. In practice, Form VI is a combination of Forms I, III, IV, and V. Young Jedi spend their first few years studying Form I and then a year or two with each additional Form before completing their training. By comparison, a Form VI master will spend at least ten years studying only that Form after completing the basic Form I training. Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems. However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding.
In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, the "diplomat's Form" might not be enough against serious combat dangers. All the Form VI Jedi Knights who fight on Geonosis die in the arena battle.
Acknowledged practitioners: numerous Jedi, including those lost on Geonosis
Form VII
Only high-level masters of multiple Forms can achieve and control the ultimate descipline known as Form VII. This is the most difficult and demanding of all Forms, but it can eventually lead to fantastic power and skill. Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearance as Form IV. In addition to very advanced Force-assisted jumps and movements, Form VII tactics overwhelm opponents with seemingly unconnected staccato sequences, making the Form highly unpredictable in battle. This trait makes for a much more difficult execution than the graceful, linked move sequences of Form IV. Form VII requires the intensity of Form V, but much greater energy since that focus is wielded more broadly. Form VII draws upon a deeper well of emotion than even Form V, yet masters it more fully. The outward bearing of a Form VII practitioner is one of calm, but the inner pressure verges on explosion. Form VII is still under development since so few can achieve the necessary mastery to advance the art.
Form VII master Mace Windu fights alongside Form III practitioner Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Battle of Geonosis. This spiritually dangerous regimen cuts perilously close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability. Mace Windu is one of the only current practitioners of Form VII.
Author Dr. David West Reynolds and fencer Jack "Stelen" Bobo derived the "in universe" principles of lightsaber combat based on the action that appears in all five Star Wars films to date. An importance notice to the reader: these Jedi histories are not stunt choreographies nor intructions from Episodes I and II Stunt Coordinator Nick Gillard, who developed the exciting sequences we see on screen. Do not attempt fencing without proper safety precautions and training.
See this article and other exciting information in Issue 62 of Star Wars Insider.
I abuse this source for my information:
http://www.answers.com/topic/lightsaber-combat?hl=kotor&hl=2
Although you never know for sure as it's not official, it does sound plausible..
Palpatine and blade mastery
I haven't read this whole page, but I keep hearing 'Ninman' pop up.
I am EXTREMELY certain that palpatine is a master of Ataro and Juyo. A very agressive combination of both.
It makes sense.
In KOTOR II, which all self respecting SW fans should own, I use Ataro. Against EVERYONE. Why? Because if you can kill a single opponent before he can do anything, does it matter that you are exposed to more than one? Finish one in record time, move on to the next. If you have noticed, the jumps were...precise. Ninman, even fully mastered, does not give someone the full grace of a precise Ataro jump. He glided past foes, launched strikes in midair...beyond the par of most Ninman users.
His blade was everywhere.
=Not to mention that Ninman is described as 'Passive, balanced, for those who preferred Force mastery."
The LAST thing I call Palpatine is 'passive' and 'balanced.' He sought, ALWAYS to put his foes on edge, to expose their weaknesses. He aggressively attacked, on par with most Sith tradition. Can you name any combination of styles more...aggressive than Ataro and Juyo?
Djem So, shien perhaps?
Shien-Perseverance.
Ataro-Agression
Juyo-Ferocity.
I think not.
As for Exar Kun, Makashi? I spent a LARGE portion of time researching that man.
Dooku placed clear resentment in use of more than one blade in Labyrinth of Evil, LoE.
He mastered makashi. The inventor of the Staff saber, a Makashi master? Doubtful.
Not to mention, Dooku described Maul as a 'mere animal.' An animal that employed the tool of Exar kun.
=Hard to believe.