Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Janus, when you said you don't like Marka's or Joruus' overwhelming advantages, do you mean you won't count Joruus using any mind control at all(Such as I can control the snipers and E-web gunners) or you just won't let me have him take control over all five hundred enemies?
Well, having the ability to mind control units is incredibly unfair and it would besicall make it almost impossible for you to lose anything if you just used it.
First, meat shield. The losses caused by the meat shield won't be much higher than if they just stood anywhere else, for reasons I will explain in a moment. The clones have armor, which, seen in ep2, can take stop small amounts of fire. A direct hit can still kill a clone though, but direct hit will be rare in this situation. This leads to my next point.
However, you are still within range. A meatshield for Yoda's telekinesis will almost certainly be costly. You simply don't have dozens of blasters firing in your direction and not take hits.
The Essential Guide to Weapons says that the optimal range of an E-web is 200 meters. After this distance, its luck before skill, until 500 meters, at which time the beam is ineffective. My forces, starting 200 meters away, will be about 40 meters out of the maximum optimal range E-web because of the slope.
It's a 15 degree slope, regardless, even if it's past 200 meters, it's not past it by a substantial amount. Plus, you're dealing with numbers in the thousands, no direct hit at any one target is necessary.
Yoda can simply rip the spines out of the ground and throw them at the E-web, or Joruus can take over the mind of the E-web gunner. I will go with the second one because I have a reference from a book. Either method will take about a second. The clones, shocked by having their heavy weapon turned against them, will be mowed down. I will show where Joruus has been shown to demonstrate this level of mind control in the next paragraph.
Can you prove that the clones would be "shcoked" and thrown into disarray? Even still, what are you doing about the snipers located closer to your position?
If we attribute half of the kills against my force(at most fifty, probably closer to 20 since the snipers only had a second or two, as did the E-web.) That means the snipers killed somewhere in the area of 15 troops in 2 second. This means that ten snipers can kill 7.5 troops per second. If you feel this number is to high, also realize that they are now shooting at about half the distance, but we will leave that to make up for the margin of error. For all ten of the snipers to be killed will take something around 12 to 15 seconds to kill any of the snipers, thus lowering the number of kills per second to less than 7.5.You would probably argue that 15 seconds is far to long, but remember that at the same time the E-web is giving them hell.
15 seconds * 7.5 kills per second = 112.5
That's fine and dandy, but how are you going to kill them? Keep in mind the snipers retreat the moment you reach the base of the hill, so how do you kill them from afar without being rained on by sniper and blaster fire? And to say they only have 15 seconds is a bit low.
The E-web has a standard five man crew(see Essential Guide to Weapons.) Joruss will be controlling all five of these minds. They will mow down the enemy Clones like you won't believe. If the gunner is killed, any one of the other four mind-controlled Clones can continue to operate the gun because the need for five crew members is for transporting the gun. Once it is operational, more crew only increases the efficiency.The E-web can be expected to kill over a hundred Clones do to three things.
Who's to say the clones won't kill the gunner crew or destroy the E-web to prevent this?
The above paragraph also shows that Yoda can rip apart the pieces of the wall and throw them at the fortress. This will eliminate the wall and cause major damage to the fortress. Yoda will only throw the spines after all the Snipers have been killed.
The Spines could weigh many, many tones, and they could be rooted in bedrock. It would be silly to assume you could throw them. And if you could, it would be silly to assume they would destroy space age walls. Your assumption here is twofold.
Yoda and Joruus will be safe behind their meat shields from Clone fire because(reference: Essential Guide to Weapons) says that the optimal range of a blaster rifle is 100 meters. That means that the 100 meters is the UPPER limit of a skilled gunner being able to hit their target.
Still, spray fire will still hit when fired into a field of enemies. Besides, what makes you think that Yoda and Joruus can launch powerful force attacks (outside of the mind control) at that range?
The MAXIMUM range is 300 meters for a blaster rifle. Beyond this the shot will be ineffective, especially against troops in armor. My forces are very close to the UPPER limit of a shots effectiveness. The Clones in the fortress will be unable to do much, if any damage to my forces for two reasons.
So they will still be taking you out. Again, spray fire into your meatshield, and even at 200 meters away, you will still take heavy fire and casualties.
The pieces of the enemy forces that are not destroyed by the spines and thrown rocks will be slaughtered. They will have at most 225 troops with which to resist. Since I believe it was said that their fortress leads into a cave, with the front of their fortress left they may retreat into their, in which case, Yoda and Joruus either collapse the entrance or they are cornered in it by my forces and killed.
You still need to climb UP an incline to even get within range to "slaughter" them. The incline is about 100 meters, even for a world class sprinter, this would take about 11 seconds on a 15 degree incline. Clonetroopers have never demonstrated the ability of being blistering fast sprinters, they will most likely plod at a much slower rate. All this while you will get shot at. And keep in mind, strewn bodies will slow your progress. If you don't have cover fire, your bumrush will still be crippled, 225 men or not.
If they attempt to make a stand, then that won't prove to be much of resistance either. Yoda can push pieces of what will not be a very damaged fortress or Joruus can take over some more of their minds and have them kill each other until one is left who will commit suicide at Joruus' order.
Again, the fortress is simply that, a "fortress." There is very little reason to believe that a few spines thrown by the force will damage it so badly that the high ground advantage + numerous hiding and sniping positions would not offer them a chance to take out large numbers of your men.
My forces can also move up the hill, firing at the clones on their up. They will move in waves of 300 up the hill with eight the rest of the forces moving to within one hundred meters of the base of the hill to give cover fire. This entire procedure should result in the loss of no more than 80 Clones. Remember that their are 3000 Clones and Storm Troopers one hundred meters from the base up the hill sending a storm of energy beams at it. They won't be able to kill all the clones, but that is over ten to one on the cover fire level. The enemy Clones will be crushed.
So you're doing a Napoleonic rush? After the first few lines of dead, the progress will be impeded, nearly grounded to a halt. They have every strategic advantage, you have none.
Originally posted by ResubianNushi
Well, having the ability to mind control units is incredibly unfair and it would besicall make it almost impossible for you to lose anything if you just used it.
That's why I didn't have him use it 😛. What I am asking though is if he can use it against 25 or 30 guys per battle.
Hm, Illustrious be skeptical. I can't say I blame him. He is right. While you can't aim accurately at over 200 meters, you can still fire into a crowd. And when you have a repeating blaster or a carbine or rifle, accuracy isn't neccessarily a virtue.
Second, if the spikes are rooted in cement, pulling them out will be too ridiculous.
And he is right, the charge will be suicidal after a certain point.
However, you are still within range. A meatshield for Yoda's telekinesis will almost certainly be costly. You simply don't have dozens of blasters firing in your direction and not take hits.
(If you are talking about the snipers, Joruus already controls them. The E-web is also under his control. Sorry, the argument flows a lot and I can see you not making that conection, my bad.)
It's a 15 degree slope, regardless, even if it's past 200 meters, it's not past it by a substantial amount. Plus, you're dealing with numbers in the thousands, no direct hit at any one target is necessary.
See above comment for snipers and E-web. They are safe from the troopers with regular rifles at this distance.
Can you prove that the clones would be "shcoked" and thrown into disarray? Even still, what are you doing about the snipers located closer to your position?
(See above. I control the snipers with atmost three seconds into the battle.)
That's fine and dandy, but how are you going to kill them? Keep in mind the snipers retreat the moment you reach the base of the hill, so how do you kill them from afar without being rained on by sniper and blaster fire? And to say they only have 15 seconds is a bit low.
(You need to re-look at the above to make this make sense.)
Who's to say the clones won't kill the gunner crew or destroy the E-web to prevent this?
(There are five gunners. The Clones are being mowed down by the E-web at the same time Yoda is throwing the spines at them and the snipers are shooting them. Faunus said the spines can be easily ripped from the ground by Yoda's force powers, so you guy have something you need to work out amongst yourselves.)
The Spines could weigh many, many tones, and they could be rooted in bedrock. It would be silly to assume you could throw them. And if you could, it would be silly to assume they would destroy space ace walls. Your assumption here is twofold.
(See above for spine info. Yoda was able to move C-9979 Landing Craft. With that kind of power, he could rip the entire fortress from the ground. Anyway, it doesn't make any sense for the Commenor Clones to build a big fortress out of scrith and then make one of their defensive walls out of regular stone. Faunus said the wall was made of stone.)
Still, spray fire will still hit when fired into a field of enemies. Besides, what makes you think that Yoda and Joruus can launch powerful force attacks (outside of the mind control) at that range?
(See my post that was right below this one.)
So they will still be taking you out. Again, spray fire into your meatshield, and even at 200 meters away, you will still take heavy fire and casualties.
(The damage that a blaster can inflict decreases as it approaches maximum range. It is doubtfull that is can piece armor by at this distance unless the armor was damaged by a previous shot. If necessary, my fources can move back a few feet.)
You still need to climb UP an incline to even get within range to "slaughter" them. The incline is about 100 meters, even for a world class sprinter, this would take about 11 seconds on a 15 degree incline. Clonetroopers have never demonstrated the ability of being blistering fast sprinters, they will most likely plod at a much slower rate. All this while you will get shot at. And keep in mind, strewn bodies will slow your progress. If you don't have cover fire, your bumrush will still be crippled, 225 men or not.
(My remaining 2500+ troops have moved to a closer range and are sending massive amounts of cover-fire. There are over then people shotting up the hill for every defender left.)
Again, the fortress is simply that, a "fortress." There is very little reason to believe that a few spines thrown by the force will damage it so badly that the high ground advantage + numerous hiding and sniping positions would not offer them a chance to take out large numbers of your men.
(It was also hit with pieces of the stone wall. Seeing as the fortress is half built into a cave, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the fortress to be made from scrith.)
So you're doing a Napoleonic rush? After the first few lines of dead, the progress will be impeded, nearly grounded to a halt. They have every strategic advantage, you have none.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Hm, Illustrious be skeptical. I can't say I blame him. He is right. While you can't aim accurately at over 200 meters, you can still fire into a crowd. And when you have a repeating blaster or a carbine or rifle, accuracy isn't neccessarily a virtue.Second, if the spikes are rooted in cement, pulling them out will be too ridiculous.
And he is right, the charge will be suicidal after a certain point.
Faunus has already said that Yoda can rip these out of the ground. He basically told me to throw them at the fortress.
Yes, I give you a hint. But never did I imply that you could break apart the fortress walls. I said the stone wall locate at fifty meters up the hill was stone. Not the walls and balconies of the fortress.
And yes, Yoda with time could rip some spikes out within a few seconds. But while being fired upon by five hundred highly specialized guerilla fighters, he's not going to get those seconds. And you seem to think that the fortress clones will be standing there, leaving themselves vulnerable to blasts from their enemies. And randomly flying spikes. . . Don't think so.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Did he? And who created the fortification? Who claimed it?Anyways, I'm off of work. You can all argue this until I return. Hasta.
I created the fortification, and yes, it was implied in my rebuke that he could use the spikes as weapons with the time and safety, and as I have said, he simply won't have those.
And HimoKun, you're using Freedon Nadd and who else?
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Yes, I give you a hint. But never did I imply that you could break apart the fortress walls. I said the stone wall locate at fifty meters up the hill was stone. Not the walls and balconies of the fortress.And yes, Yoda [B]with time
could rip some spikes out within a few seconds. But while being fired upon by five hundred highly specialized guerilla fighters, he's not going to get those seconds. And you seem to think that the fortress clones will be standing there, leaving themselves vulnerable to blasts from their enemies. And randomly flying spikes. . . Don't think so. [/B]
Yoda has the meat shield. The Clones in the fortress aren't going to be able to get a good hit because he is near the UPPER limit of a rifle's effectiveness and far out of it's effective range at aiming effectivly. The Clone armor will have a good chance of being able to stop blaster fire because the shots will be far weaker at this range.
The Snipers and E-web are no problem for shooting Yoda, Joruus, or my forces. It will take less than a second for Joruus to take control of them(see Thrawn Trilogy.).
Seeing as Yoda was able to cause the C-9979 Landing Craft to crash into each other from what was probably close to several miles away it seems easy to see him being able to rip apart any stone wall from a MUCH closer distance.
The spikes will be accelerated to high speed when thrown at the fortress. They don't need to hit the troops themselves, they can damage the surface of the structure itself. Same with the stones.
If that doesn't settle you, then look at it this way. Yoda can simply rip the ground out that holds up the fortress. It's on a hill. He can move at least a dozen tons at a time with the force all the time safly out of the range of the enemy Clone Troopers.
Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I created the fortification, and yes, it was implied in my rebuke that he could use the spikes as weapons [B]with the time and safety, and as I have said, he simply won't have those.And HimoKun, you're using Freedon Nadd and who else? [/B]
No, Darth Bandon, Kyp Durron and Ludo Kressh.
Okay about my battle....
So okay...
I have Malak with 750 Star Forge droids
And Bastila with 700 Dark Jedi...
I'm not even going to send Obi Wan, because he might be good but he and his forces are going to be useless cannon food in this battle (well most really. But I don't need cannon food here) What I need is a way around the damn bridge.... But i'm obviously not going to find that and i'm going to have a hard time going across the canyon without the bridge too...
Now its obvious that i'm going to have to cross the bridge... The Dark Jedi however are going to die by the dozens if I make them pass, they are not Soldiers but warriors. So first things first. Bastila and her battle meditation now we all know that her battle meditation is incredibe and can influence entire battles. Yes her using battle meditation will practically make her worthless. But when you consider that the greatest military minds had a hard time defeating that even when a stupid assed general was leading the battle meditated army's then its pretty easy to see the importance. The Stormtroopers will be scared as hell when the fight will start. Now not only that but they will have a superior army in front of them. They are going to have a hard time wielding their weapons and their morale will be low, meaning that they will be more likely to route. Afterall thats what battle meditation does and Bastila is great with it. And then droids.... Now these droids are going to pass the bridge first there is no doubt about that in my mind... They will have to take the initial blow of the attack, levitating just above the bridge they are probably going to move fast. Now they were also made with Rakatan technology so they are going to be powerful. According to Malak powerful enough to destroy even some of the most powerful Jedi's. Now there is no way those guys are going to be fighting with a sword, so there fire power would have to be great. I'm guessing they can open a cross fire effectively forcing the clones to hide behind their weak walls.
Now there weapons are going to be powerful perhaps more powerful then what the droids have, but the weapons can only fire once a minute. Now this is obviously when somebody who knows whats he's doing is using it. These troopers will know what they are doing but they are going to be scared, there attacks won't be as good as normal anymore and they will start to fail. I would not be surprised if no more then 50 droids fall down the bridge at the initial attack.
Once the droids have set up a perimiter behind the bridge (shouldn't take to long) and their fire is still shooting the Dark Jedi will move across. Keep in mind that the weak walls and houses can catch flame by what is happening now. Of course I will assume they won't because it makes it easier but the town is going to be in a very bad shape and most of the cover will probably be destroyed by the fire. So at that time the droids will move forward the Jedi walking behind them. Once the droids near the weaker wooden walls and houses and god knows what else on the small platue the droids will have to stop firing and the Jedi will go in to finish of the rest.
Now keep in mind this operation depends on two things, primarily Bastila her battle meditation and Malak his great way of attacking head on. Also keep in mind that Malak himself will be joining in the battle once the guys are over the bridge and the droids stop firing its 700 Dark Jedi + Plus Malak jumping into a weak scattered and scared base trying to destroy what little remains, if the troops haven't routed by then yet.
Ok...here is my attack on Obroa Skai. I will use Kyle Katarn (+1,000 Mercenaries) and Freedon Nadd (+2,500 Beast Riders) for this mission since I will most likely not need Kavar and his troops he can stay on Onderon.
Kyle Katarn
Kyle was trained as an imperial soldier before becoming an imperial spy who joined the rebel forces later on. So he would know imperial military tactics that are basically the same – or better versions – the clone troopers use. So his first action here will be to give that information to the troops and Freedon Nadd.
Now while easily being one of the best mercenaries and spies in the Galaxy before becoming a Jedi Knight his Jedi abilities only strengthen his natural abilities. Since he is able to use force cloak (basically making himself invisible – that technique was taught to all NJO members by Luke and can be used without much concentration and can be kept up for a nearly infinite amount of time – Luke was able to remotely render a planet and a capital starship invisible for an infinite amount of time) he will be able to move into the fortress quite easily and move around there while staying invisible.
Most likely he will be able to stealth into the generator and take it off (switch it off, destroy the controls) if you decide he isn't he will focus on taking out the defences of the front side of the fortress (the e-web canons and turbolasers). Since he was able to destroy Dark Troopers (who are considered to be ten times as powerful as normal soldiers) in direct confrontation in times when he wasn't a force user he should have no problem with taking out the teams manning the turbolasers (10 at each turbolaser as far as I got it) and destroying the turbolasers and the e-web cannons. Keep in mind that he can move and even fight while staying invisible.
Freedon Nadd and the beast riders
Since I was told that my Beast Riders can use their beasts I have 2,500 people riding on beasts that are able to fly (seen in the Tales of the Jedi comics most of them use that kinds of beasts). Those things came to Onderon from Dxun so they are able to fly through space and they have to be very fast (since they can escape the gravity of Dxun).
Now just to get anything on speed let’s say they are able to move at 100 mp/h at least they would be able to move in with 60 mp/h since some birds on earth use that kind of speed as average speed even over far distances. Going by this assumptions (mind that those beasts need at least some speed to stay in the air) they will be able to fly from the end of the mountains to the outer wall of the fortress in 1 minute 3 seconds (100 mp/h) or 1 minute 48 seconds (60 mp/h) and can reach the Generator in 1 minute 36 seconds (100 mp/h) or 2 minutes 48 seconds (60 mp/h).
They will start moving when Kyle has shut down the Generator and the turbolasers + e-webs. In case Kyle wasn't able to destroy the generator (he has enough military and covert ops experience to decide that on his own so that he won't waste his life there) 1/5 of the Beast Riders will move to destroy the Generator while 40 troopers on speeders won't be able to stop them. The rest of the Beast riders will just fly over the base and shoot the troops down there or use explosives on them. This is going to be quite a massacre since the bases defences are down (no turbolasers and e-web cannons) and normal weapons don't do much to the beasts (in Tales of the Jedi it can be seen that the people of Iziz had heavy weapons installed to take that things down – same thing can be seen in KotoR 2).
Yet Nadd will use Battle Meditation in that phase of the battle. We know that Queen Amanoa (the Queen of Onderon) can use that ability and since all the Sith teachings on Onderon were left by Freedom Nadd he must have been able to use Battle Meditiation too. Thereby boosting the efficiency of my troops.
When the main fortress troops are destroyed my Mercenaries will start moving from the mountains towards the fortress. When they arrive there Nadd will take the lead and start attacking the bunker. Since Nadd on his own was able to conquer an entire planet, destroy an army of beast riders with his Sith Magic and withstand the attack of an entire army of Jedi Knights killing a large number of Jedi, he should have no problem with 100 clone troopers in the bunker having 1000 Mercenaries behind him who are aided by battle meditation.
Originally posted by ResubianNushi
No, Darth Bandon, Kyp Durron and Ludo Kressh.
Alright. Darth Bandon can have 4,000 Sith Swordsman. (Troopers armed with vibroswords and a hold-out blaster.
For Kyp Durron, I suggested the Jedi Mavericks, although the numbers would be unrealistic, several times larger than the NJO itself. 500 Mavericks, or if the other judges dislike this idea, 4,000 new Republic Troopers.
And lastly, Ludo Kressh will take 1,000 Ancient Sith soldiers.