Darth Vader versus Darth Tyranus

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Younglings aren't quite as masterful as the count.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Vastly superior? Proof? I'd say their potential is pretty close.
[/B]

Originally posted by Kas'Im
This is one thing I'll give Vader, an advantage in forms, but when you consider that Dooku knows of all of the other forms except form 7, and has shown the ability to hold his own against both Yoda and Mace Windu, both of whom's forms have a superior advantage than Schien does, it really doesn't mean that much at all.
[/B]

i got cold hard proof palpatine is gay and he married anakin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62QG_AnK5Xo
ding ding ding

but ram is claiming that faster people can kill vader

Actually that would be one of his points, not sole point.

again prove that their potential is close

Hold up, Subject was claiming that Vader had a vastly superior potential than Dooku, and I just asked for some proof. Don't ask me to prove a negative.

as anakin he had mor epotential that any other force user

But then he got himself screwed by Obi-Wan, and he no longer had that potential. He was just like Maul or Dooku. GL even states this. They were most likely in the same league, force connection wise.

after getting injured, he still had tremendous mastery of the force, being 80% of sidious

You seem to have mastery mixed up with connection. Vader was 80% of Sidious, that would be his connection. Mastery doesn't come into play in that regard.
Also, prove that Vader's force mastery > Dooku's.

ok fine, vader has demonstrated force crush, vader has demonstrated a force push which slammed his opponent tark into the ceiling at high velocity causing a dent, vader pulled down a huge tree to crush the dark women, vader during battle could throw objects at his opponent, something dooku does only to pin one of them down,

and vader has 7 more years of dark side mastery, vader mastered grip, knows how to use crush, destroyed tanks in Eaw with ease, and was able to do a force wave blowing back his opponents.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
well looks like we have yet another Dooku fanboy on the head of Ox's C0CK. (no offense to you Ox). Nothing has been proven to indicate that Dooku can win.

I'm not a Dooku fanboy! I would admit to be being a Vader fanboy though! 😄

Vader is the coolest Bad guy ever......but as Lucas says his potential went down the pan on mustafar

anyhoo lets just agree to disagree without the insults i mean we're obviously watching different movies 😆

peace

So what if his potential went down. Does that make him automatically weaker than Dooku? No. Well congratulations anyway people, we hve made this thread the second largest in the SW Vs. Forum (excluding Battle Bar). Next target, the Number 1 Ragnos Temple Purge: 900!!!

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Younglings aren't quite as masterful as the count.

True, but that was an argument against speed, not skill. Speed alone doesn't mean shit. Cin Drallig was considered one of the finest and fastest swordsman, and Anakin pwned him while fighting other Jedi.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Vastly superior? Proof? I'd say their potential is pretty close.

Ahh...reading...its a good thing....i didn't say potential, I said connection. Being he came from the force, he has a natural advantage. Thats the reason Gl gave when he was explaining why Anakin was so far ahead of his peers.

Also: Pursued up the stairs of the bridge by Anakin, Dooku led a careful retreat where Obi-Wan rejoined the fight, at which point Dooku simultaneously kicked Anakin away, locked Obi-Wan in a Force grip, and hurled him across the room, knocking him unconscious. Before Dooku could prepare himself, however, Anakin kicked the aged Jedi over the balcony of the bridge and rejoined the fight. Dooku again fought ably against Anakin, but could no longer mount an effective attack, as the young Jedi's connection with the Force and prowess in lightsaber combat had greatly intensified since their last confrontation. In the end, Anakin repaid the Count for his defeat on Geonosis by cutting off both of Dooku's hands.

his connection. Although his potential was in fact higher, it diminished after OB1 got to him. But when that happened, he didn't lose anything, he just couldn't go any further. And being that he trained longer in the darkside under the most powerful Sith Lord, yea, i would say he has the advantage there.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
This is one thing I'll give Vader, an advantage in forms, but when you consider that Dooku knows of all of the other forms except form 7, and has shown the ability to hold his own against both Yoda and Mace Windu, both of whom's forms have a superior advantage than Schien does, it really doesn't mean that much at all.

I just checked and nowhere did it say Dooku trained in more than Form 2. It said he trained in that form to obtain its highest degree. He is mentioned nowhere else by any other forms, whereas Anakin/Vader is. So yea, advantage Vader.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Telekinesis can be defended against, there are numerous ways.

We've seen lightning blocked, crush blocked, throw blocked, even push...not so much blocked but rather pushed back against...but when have we ever seen a choke blocked? Never that i can gather.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
He killed the sand people because they killed his mother, the person who he cared about the most in the entire world. Sure, he wanted revenge against Dooku but it wasn't quite the same. He was also still a padawan during AOTC, and by ROTS he's a lot more jedi-like.

Irrelevant why or when. He murdered innocent people, beings, whatever you want to call them. You don't need to be a full fledged Jedi to know that "slaughtering" women and helpless children is wrong. I knew that when i was 5. I'm saying that Dooku was fighting for his life and it wasn't a test to see if he could kill a helpless person. He was testing his strength and power and proved to be more powerful than Dooku. Which ties in to what I said earlier, on Mustafar, he didn't lose anything but the ability to reach his full potential. But even by GL's admission, "At the time of Episode 3, Anakin is the most powerful, he just doesn't have the experience that OB1 has."

He also stated somewhere (I'll try to find where exactly) that the reason Mace didn't like him, is he thought he was way too powerful for his age and implied a sense of jealousy on Mace's part that Anakin "eclipsed him". So if he "eclipsed" Mace, i don't see how he wouldn't maintain that level of power to still be above Dooku.

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
I'm not a Dooku fanboy! I would admit to be being a Vader fanboy though! 😄

Vader is the coolest Bad guy ever......but as Lucas says his potential went down the pan on mustafar

anyhoo lets just agree to disagree without the insults i mean we're obviously watching different movies 😆

peace

Fair enough. I could be called a Vader fanboy of sorts, but i try to argue with facts and evidence, not just "Vader has a cool suit so he wins"....ya know what i mean. Its all good man.
But remember that potential is not connection nor power level. potential is what you can do, not whatever level you've already obtained.

True, but that was an argument against speed, not skill. Speed alone doesn't mean shit.

The point is, speed wasn't the only argument given for Dooku.

Cin Drallig was considered one of the finest and fastest swordsman, and Anakin pwned him while fighting other Jedi.

Proof? What we saw in the hologram in ROTS only shows us how the battle ended, the full circumstances are unknown.

Ahh...reading...its a good thing....i didn't say potential, I said connection.

Connection is potential, moron.

Being he came from the force, he has a natural advantage.

Proof that he 'came from the force'?
Even so, the only advantage he would have received in regard to personal power would be force potential, and this was severely weakened after Mustafar.

Although his potential was in fact higher, it diminished after OB1 got to him. But when that happened, he didn't lose anything, he just couldn't go any further.

Erm, it doesn't quite work that way. There is more to force potential than just your actual limit, otherwise Anakin wouldn't have even been able to progress faster than his fellow padawans, just reach his peak later. How high a jedi's potential affects the rate of his growth as well as the actual limit, but on top of that, a jedi with a higher connection would be able to feel the force more clearly than others. Thus, after his duel with Obi-Wan at Mustafar and after having suffered his injuries, Anakin's connection weakened and he was no longer as susceptible to using the force as he was before.

And being that he trained longer in the darkside under the most powerful Sith Lord, yea, i would say he has the advantage there.

Yet Dooku received decades more jedi training than Anakin, and only about seven years less as a sith, so I would say the advantage here is Dooku's.

I just checked and nowhere did it say Dooku trained in more than Form 2.

It has been stated before, I have no idea where so I won't be able to supply a quote, however consider this; he was the jedi temple's lightsaber instructor, he would have had to know quite a few forms if he were to actually teach the jedi students them. Now let's compare him to other jedi temple lightsaber instructors: Sora Bulq who has been stated to have mastered every single form with the exception of Makashi, Cin Drallig who has been stated to have mastered the first 6 forms - Dooku clearly would have mastered quite a few forms.

We've seen lightning blocked, crush blocked, throw blocked, even push...not so much blocked but rather pushed back against...but when have we ever seen a choke blocked? Never that i can gather.

Well you say we've seen crush be blocked before. Well that's funny, considering force crush is just an advanced version of force grip. Also, consider that if force grip really couldn't be blocked, than you would have nobodys such as Maul and Assaj being able to own someone like Yoda in a heartbeat. Also, Dooku knows force grip, so I really don't see your point.

And grip has been showed to be directly defended against in the EU.

Irrelevant why or when. He murdered innocent people, beings, whatever you want to call them. You don't need to be a full fledged Jedi to know that "slaughtering" women and helpless children is wrong.

No, it's not irrelevant. The more training and experience and growth he would receive as a jedi, the more in charge of his emotions he would become. That much is obvious.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Fair enough. I could be called a Vader fanboy of sorts, but i try to argue with facts and evidence, not just "Vader has a cool suit so he wins"....ya know what i mean. Its all good man.
But remember that potential is not connection nor power level. potential is what you can do, not whatever level you've already obtained.

No, connection is potential. They're the exact same thing.
Strength in the force = Connection = Potential.
That's just how it is.

negative. Look both words up, you'll find they dont have the same definition. They are not the same. Thats just how language is.

Connection:1 : the act of connecting : the state of being connected : as a : causal or logical relation or sequence <the connection between two ideas> b (1) : contextual relation or association <in this connection the word has a different meaning> (2) : relationship in fact <wanted in connection with a robbery> c : a relation of personal intimacy (as of family ties) d : COHERENCE, CONTINUITY

potential: 1 : existing in possibility : capable of development into actuality <potential benefits>
2 : expressing possibility; specifically : of, relating to, or constituting a verb phrase expressing possibility, liberty, or power by the use of an auxiliary with the infinitive of the verb (as in "it may rain"😉

His POTENTIAL was to become the greatest force user ever. His CONNECTION to the force was in a way his midicholrian count, through those he connect to the force. Having more deepens the connection. If you can tell he has over 20,000 based off of a drop of blood, then its based off of a ratio as opposed to total body count, so even with losing limbs, the existing body still has the same ratio, which would still be higher.

Bullshit. Connection and potential are the same thing where the force is concerned.

crush cant be blocked that easily, so farwe have never seen a defense for it, best way is to move out of sight
and kasim prove that connection is potential

Unsure how to rule that. In any case, connection and potential are used very differently in the Star Wars universe. Potential, I should think, refers to how strong you can make your connection, while connection refers to how in tune with the Force you are.

So different...

Nice conclusion Captain!

you're an ignorant bastard. I gave you two definitions. you're gonna sit there and tell me that SW has its own dictionary? Last time i checked, the English language was the language it was written in, less the ones GL made up based of earthly languages.
Potential and connection are NOT the same. A fukking 2nd grader can tell you that. Get off Dookus dick and accept the fact that different words have different meanings and you are in fact as wrong as Dooku is beat in this.

Look at Rex's post, it shows a good connection and it PROVES THAT THE TWO ARE NOT EQUAL!!!

Seriously people, the fact that the increase in the poll vote for Vader from 12 to 24 shows that people are convinced that Vader > Tyrannus and it was only due to the original section containning fanboys tht Tyrannus leads Vader by one vote.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Seriously people, the fact that the increase in the poll vote for Vader from 12 to 24 shows that people are convinced that Vader > Tyrannus and it was only due to the original section containning fanboys tht Tyrannus leads Vader by one vote.

Lol, could it not just be that the forum is now filled with Dooku hating, Vader fanboys. I know for a fact that most of the people on these boards dislike Dooku. So you just pwned your own argument there 😛

Im happy to keep debating this. The poll means jack sh*t - it is mostly based on opinion. I myself voted for Dooku before i read the facts. However Dooku will win this. He is faster (and dont try to pass this off as nothing, no it is not the deciding factor but it sure as hell helps), has decades more experience (experience is also important, but again not vital), the significant advantage of force lightning (this in itself proves Vader will lose) and the fact that he was a top duellist and lightsaber prodigy in the time when jedi were at their peak. By themselves these facts mean little but together they prove that Dooku wins. The only thing Vader has is physical strength in his form (and arguably force abilities). These alone will not let him win - make the fight extremely difficult yes, but not enough to win.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lol, could it not just be that the forum is now filled with Dooku hating, Vader fanboys. I know for a fact that most of the people on these boards dislike Dooku. So you just pwned your own argument there 😛

Im happy to keep debating this. The poll means jack sh*t - it is mostly based on opinion. I myself voted for Dooku before i read the facts. However Dooku will win this. He is faster (and dont try to pass this off as nothing, no it is not the deciding factor but it sure as hell helps), has decades more experience (experience is also important, but again not vital), the significant advantage of force lightning (this in itself proves Vader will lose) and the fact that he was a top duellist and lightsaber prodigy in the time when jedi were at their peak. By themselves these facts mean little but together they prove that Dooku wins. The only thing Vader has is physical strength in his form (and arguably force abilities). These alone will not let him win - make the fight extremely difficult yes, but not enough to win.

Vader would kill Dooku, even Lucas would say so, let's face it, Dooku was just an above-average Jedi, obsessed with knowledge, it would not be hard to find another person stronger than both him and Vader if Dooku was the superior one.

Experience sure as hell helped him in his fight with Anakin.......oh wait, he got his hands chopped off, and then his head with his own Lightsaber.

Vader in Lightsaber combat > Dooku

Vader would just outright choke Dooku