Originally posted by Advent
What about if that point wasn't included in the discussion for the purpose that we were talking about a pure force fight? 😛Really, we were talking about a force battle between the two. I've acknowledged on several occasions that it's a possibility (in this thread even) - nothing has changed.
Urm. Considering Vader would be "intact" completely here, he would have a Sith amulet attached to his right hand (which Luke did cut off in ROTJ) which might offer some protection. Taking a look at the TOTJ comics, Kun simply resists Odan's "Wall of Light" attack (which destroyed Ancient Sith before according to Odan's words) without having to use any actual defence. He just drops on the ground.
Or let me put it like this: Vader's skill in terms of force defence is unknown. According to Lucas he, even in his suit, is still 80 % of Sidious in terms of force powers. Now if people like Yoda and Dooku can deflect force lightning, why shouldn't Vader be able to do the same. At least he does block a blaster shot from Han Solo with his hand rather easily in ESB. So if he can do that, I don't see what should keep him from blocking force lightning.
Now, if he were to get hit with a bombardment of lightning that knocked Sora Bulq unconscious, I'd say he would go down fast and hard, and I don't see anything that suggests otherwise.
Well. Actually, I have two different points here:
a) Would Vader with sufficient defence (meaning: Stand-off where he and Dooku attack each other with the force) also be hit by the lightning as he was in ROTJ ? I think that is debateable given that he has shown the ability to block energy beams with his hands (most likely using the force) and the fact that he remained as Sidious "second in command" despite the fact that Sidious did have tons of other Dark Siders (possibly also able to use force lightning) around.
b) Even if Dooku hits Vader with force lightning. Would that take out Vader instantly ? Vader did have 20 years of Sith training under Sidious and had a greater amount of raw force power to start with. If you take a look at Luke in the Calista trilogy: Being mortally wounded by an explosion he does actually manage to reanimate himself, get poisoned air out of his lungs and heal himself - while being knocked out completely. Aside of that Vader (I think in either the ESB novel or SotE) is shown to "reactivate" his lungs again by focusing on his anger, breathing without the life support system.
Combine those things and you might come to the conclusion that even if Dooku manages to disable Vader's life-support, Vader doesn't have to be instaowned by such an action. Somebody capable of tearing entire rooms down by unleashing his anger using the force doesn't really have to stand on his legs to deal some nice amount of damage.
I never denied, or insinuated otherwise. It's the fact that he fell to the ground is more or less what I'm referring to, and as noted above, it played a substantial part in his destruction. In this scenario, a blast that could launch a fully trained Jedi master into the air, and knock him out would probably have far more damaging effects, if I had to guess.
Sure. I don't want to argue that. My point, as I said above, was, that Vader might actually be able to defend himself against force lightning given a "force battle" scenario in which Dooku not simply surprises Vader by giving him a blast of that (like he did to Sora for example). Or that Vader might simply take it and still waste Dooku with one of his famous "full hatred" performances after being hit by a blast of force lightning.
Originally posted by Borbarad
At least he does block a blaster shot from Han Solo with his hand rather easily in ESB. So if he can do that, I don't see what should keep him from blocking force lightning.
Well. Actually, I have two different points here:a) Would Vader with sufficient defence (meaning: Stand-off where he and Dooku attack each other with the force) also be hit by the lightning as he was in ROTJ ? I think that is debateable given that he has shown the ability to block energy beams with his hands (most likely using the force) and the fact that he remained as Sidious "second in command" despite the fact that Sidious did have tons of other Dark Siders (possibly also able to use force lightning) around.
The only time we've seen Vader (to the best of my knowledge; please correct me if I'm wrong) take on Force lightning is when Palpatine himself threw it at him. Even if an acolyte did have the ability to use Force lightning (and it's possible that they would not, due to Sith secrecy or somesuch), it's possible that they wouldn't be particularly powerful with it, or at least not enough to defeat any defense Vader can come up with. Darth Maul, one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history, apparently had no idea how to use Force lightning -- if it was taught to some Dark siders, they would be a very rare and exclusive group to begin with. There's no way of knowing if Vader ever did have a real defense against force lightning; if he did, it would have come in handy when Sidious blasted him with it.
b) Even if Dooku hits Vader with force lightning. Would that take out Vader instantly ? Vader did have 20 years of Sith training under Sidious and had a greater amount of raw force power to start with. If you take a look at Luke in the Calista trilogy: Being mortally wounded by an explosion he does actually manage to reanimate himself, get poisoned air out of his lungs and heal himself - while being knocked out completely. Aside of that Vader (I think in either the ESB novel or SotE) is shown to "reactivate" his lungs again by focusing on his anger, breathing without the life support system.
Combine those things and you might come to the conclusion that even if Dooku manages to disable Vader's life-support, Vader doesn't have to be instaowned by such an action. Somebody capable of tearing entire rooms down by unleashing his anger using the force doesn't really have to stand on his legs to deal some nice amount of damage.
Sure. I don't want to argue that. My point, as I said above, was, that Vader might actually be able to defend himself against force lightning given a "force battle" scenario in which Dooku not simply surprises Vader by giving him a blast of that (like he did to Sora for example). Or that Vader might simply take it and still waste Dooku with one of his famous "full hatred" performances after being hit by a blast of force lightning.
Though a case can be made that it doesn't matter if he can come up well against lightning or not, as long as he can keep it from getting to his body, it still doesn't bode well for an encounter that is otherwise entirely his.
Originally posted by Captain BobIf your referring to the moment when vader picked up palpatine, according to the older essential guide to characters the quote i remember goes As palpatine was about to deliver the killing bolts, vader turned on his master. Its something like that and it indicates that palpatine was indeed shooting out killer bolts when vader picked him upWhile it is true that Vader/Anakin was not drawing upon the Dark Side when he did this, Palpatine's force lightning wasn't nearly as powerful as it could have been at that moment,
I may be wrong so ill have to find where i put that book and when i do ill find the quote
But as i said for a pure force fight without sabers, its a matter of chance who strikes first, if dooku hits first he comes out the victor, if vader strikes with crush, he is the victor and we have seen vader demonstrate crush as early as being anakin skywalker and in ROTS, he destroyed an entire medical room by getting pissed and OT vader has much greater control of the force
Originally posted by Kadesh
Its something like that and it indicates that palpatine was indeed shooting out killer bolts when vader picked him up
No, it doesn't. Can you read? Even assuming that "quote" isn't something you made up:
"As Palpatine was about to deliver the killing bolts, Vader turned on his master."
Highlighted in bold for reference. He was about to, which means that he hadn't started yet, nor did he do such when Vader picked him up (because it states plainly 'Vader turned on his master', which interrupted that process).
As well, for the sake of operating under the "quote", it doesn't prove that the blasts Luke was receiving during that point (before Palpatine released the 'killing bolts'😉 were powerful either.
Besides, Vader broke the concentration Palpatine had, ergo the strands of lightning would be even less potent than the ones used on Luke, who did get up in three seconds, and manage to carry his father all the way to the docking bays. What we see on screen trumps that of any guides, comics, or novels, and logically speaking, it is impossible for Luke to get up in mere moments if he was being hit by any decently strong dose of lightning, considering his lack of defense, ability, and strength compared to those in the PT. Since he did get up, he wasn't, and neither was Vader.
I've already explained that the lightning Palpatine used in RotJ was severely lacking in power behind it, and provided sufficient evidence to support that in previous posts.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Okay, both Dooku and Vader know how to use Force Choke. But I am glad to see that Tyranus still has more votes. 😄
yeah and vader had more practice at being a sith seeing as how he was with palpatine for half his life, and as a knight he beat dooku and add the 20+ years of sith training and youve got a colosal sith. plus in esb vader force choked that guy over the intercom. dooku may know force choke but vader mastered it. vader chokes people sometimes without moving a muscle, dooku's toast.
Originally posted by darthsith19Seems you forgot before this thread was brought up by vos, it was dooku 26 and vader 12 and it seems after we formed arguements it became vader 40 and dooku 44.
Okay, both Dooku and Vader know how to use Force Choke. But I am glad to see that Tyranus still has more votes. 😄
Again votes dont mean shit, i can make a poll of sidious vs revan and i bet you revan gets more votes, does that mean revan is the victor?
@Man of christ,
While i may agree its possible for vader to win, i doubt he would "toast" dooku, there will be no pwnage and if dooku were to win, its only because of lightning, not force mastery, not force skill when compared to vaders.
This is the way I see it, Tyranus is the better duelist BUT Anakin defeated him because of EXTREME RAW power and superior strength, speed, and all-around youth. Vader may not be the fastest but he seems to be pretty fast enough. He didn't sit on his butt for 20 years doin nopthing with his lightsaber.
Force Power: Vader>Anakin
Saber Skills: Vader>Anakin
Speed: Anakin>Vader
Strength: Vader>Anakin
Durability: Vader>Anakin(this should come into play really well against Dooku's weak Makashi swipes, taps, and swings.
So as you see Vader pretty much could defeat Dooku even harder. Dooku's lightning is not getting past Vader's lightsaber.
Originally posted by SylarThen don't, I could really care less where ya'll debate. But if you really don't care to debate this topic any further then why do you even bother to come in here? 😛
Will you QUIT bumping old threads darth martin? Neither OX nor I are interested in getting to another heated debate
Originally posted by Darth ExodusFantastic logic, i guess a nightsister who has lightning will beat vader. You seem to forget that vader has a lightsaber to deflect lightning and has a technique more powerful than dooku's such as force crush and his amazing TK abilities
Vader's too weak against Force Lightning as shown in TRODV when the Emporer says this.
Vader loses.
Originally posted by Darth MartinWhy do i bother? Because this thread has been settled months ago and we(the debators) decided to leave it that way until of course you decided to bring back a dead topic with NOTHING to contribute.
Then don't, I could really care less where ya'll debate. But if you really don't care to debate this topic any further then why do you even bother to come in here? 😛
Nobody is interested in debating this thread, not even a big fan of vader like me.