Originally posted by vader11
All you said are just YOUR own oppinions. Why it seems like only you arguing with me? If everyone come to agree with you, I would agree. You are the one who need to learn to read because I was meaning it is a pure force fight & you said Vader can use saber to block it so are totally fool! Yes, pure force fight can go either way, but Dooku has higher chance of winning. Any proof that Vader is underestimating his skills? That was already near the end of the fight. I don't see he is still underestimating. You are the stupidest person in the world if I am stupidest person in the forum.
Shut your cakehole twit. If you're going to continue with your bullshit attitude, make sure you are at the very least, a decent debater(you're not). Now in a force fight, I don't see why it wouldn't go Vader's way. Sure he's half a cyborg but he also has studied for 20 years under Palpatine, so his knowledge greatly surpasses that of Dooku. At the same time his abilities and potential is about that of Dooku according to GL, so there's nothing to suggest Dooku is superior to him in force abilities. Now with a saber duel, Dooku firmly has this. That's not even a discussion. Now, if you're going to say Dooku can simply use force lightning and kill Vader, I will respond with the simple fact that Vader could block the lightning blasts with his saber.
SHUT THE FCUK UP!!! You're the stupidest in the world if I'm the stupidest on the forum? First off, are we in 4th grade? Second, as testament to your logic, if he were the stupidest in the world, that would include this board, which would mean you weren't the stupidest on the forum which would render the whole basis of that statement void. Did I confuse you? I think I confused myself on that one, lol...anyway...let me see here...
"Any proof that Dooku can't use or block force crush?"
Are you asking him to prove a negative? Do you have proof that Dooku CAN use or block crush?
"Also, did you see how easily got hit by Luke's lightsaber in ESB? Luke's skill at the time was definitely not that good but he did hit Vader. So why can't Dooku hit Vader too?"
Vader wasn't trying to kill or even really harm Luke. "The Emperor does not want his prize damaged." That should have been evident enough. If not, then the fact that he toyed with Like for roughly 5 minutes before Luke hit him, then 7 seconds after he tagged Vader's shoulder, his hand was gone. It was that quick. Vader did that to basically knock Luke down a notch to let him know that he's not really that good. It's all right there and quite clear.
Kadesh is right, it would depend (in a pure force fight) who struck first, however, Palpatine's lightning would logically be more potent/powerful than Dooku's, and Vader didn't instantly die - he stood there hold the man who was shocking him above his head, threw him down the shaft, watched him fall, had the birds and the bees talk with Luke then let himself go into the force. So it's not like Vader couldn't even pull off a desperation move to hurt/kill Dooku either during or immediately after the lightning attack.
EDIT - damnit, Advent said the same shit while i was typing this...ah well...wont hurt for you to hear it again...
You can't say he would lost to Vader beacuse there's no proof that Dooku can't block or use crush too. He may know or not, who knows. But you can't say he would lost because of this. For Luke is still a poor saber fighter in ESB, Vader shouldn't be get hit by him so easily even if Vader didn't want to kill him if Vader is so good. That's means Vader would be injured or may even be defeated by Luke if he didn't have the armor to protect him.
You better ask him if he was a 4th grader since he said that first. Also, if I'm the stupidest person on this forum, he would become the stupidest in the world, include this forum, & take over my place.
I have freedom of speech so none of you can ask me to shut the f**k up.
Originally posted by vader11
You can't say he would lost to Vader beacuse there's no proof that Dooku can't block or use crush too. He may know or not, who knows. But you can't say he would lost because of this. For Luke is still a poor saber fighter in ESB, Vader shouldn't be get hit by him even if he didn't want to kill him if Vader is so good.
You better ask him if he was a 4th grader since he said that first. Also, if I'm the stupidest person on this forum, he would become the stupidest in the world, include this forum, & take over my place.
I have freedom of speech so none of you can ask me to shut the f**k up.
Good god, and I thought Noobaris was the dumbest person on here. You're earning that reputation quicker than I ever imagined. First off, nobody here has to prove a negative, you made the assertion that Dooku apparently block or use crush, so shut up and prove it. Secondly, Vader is at worst, on Dooku's level as a cyborg, and seeing as how he's had 20 years to learn under Palpatine, it is a dead giveaway that he's superior to Dooku in the force. Your freedom of speech means jack shit when you're an incompetent twit who's most likely going to get banned for stupidity.
If force crush can immediately kill powerful person like Dooku, why Vader don't use it against all his enemies? He may even injured or killed Sidious too. You need to proof that. So, Vader may be better in the force, but you can't deny that Dooku can kill him with lightning. Also, it depends on which Vader it is. If it is the one at the end of ROTS, he would be killed by Dooku.
Are there a rule which say "banned for stupidity"? If yes, you are the first to be banned.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Palpatine's lightning would logically be more potent/powerful than Dooku's, and Vader didn't instantly die - he stood there hold the man who was shocking him above his head, threw him down the shaft, watched him fall, had the birds and the bees talk with Luke then let himself go into the force. So it's not like Vader couldn't even pull off a desperation move to hurt/kill Dooku either during or immediately after the lightning attack.
We know that Force attacks are measured by concentration (at least continuous attacks). Darth Vader broke that concentration by benchpressing Sidious into the air, which caused confusion. While it's obvious that the lightning generated at that point [upon Luke] was intensified, it doesn't mean it had increased tenfold, much less that Vader got hit with the same amount of power.
I'd say we'd have to take into consideration that a blast similar to the one that knocked Sora Bulq unconscious would kill him far faster than Sidious' wild assault, which wasn't even focused on Darth Vader, but instead drawn to. Especially a more concentrated, and seemingly more powerful version given that Vader is far more susceptible to lightning than Sora Bulq is.
Just to reinforce, Sidious may have been radiating in lightning, but the power more than likely could not have been the same, and the attack was not generated specifically toward Vader.
2. "In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader."
Excerpt from the RotJ novel. If you notice, usually one is not "flailing wildly" when they are concentrated or focused. If you also will note, it says that the lightning "ripped across the room", and implies it was drawn to Darth Vader, so again it's illogical to assume that the energies emitted from the waves of lightning would be as powerful if a) concentration was broken and b) if it wasn't even focused on him.
3. Given that the lightning didn't kill him in the Emporer's Throne room (as he was carried by Luke, still alive), it's also highly implausible that Sidious' lightning - which we've seen demolish an entire battalion of Stormtroopers, utterly destroy Mace Windu, and floor Yoda (which not apply immense strength, or continuous) - was anywhere near its apex. From what we've displayed of it, it seemed to be less damaging to a man who is a crippled cyborg, who's suit is a conduit for electricity. Which leads one to believe it was hardly as strong as it could be, and that it was significantly less powerful when applied to Luke, and even less to Vader (as he broke concentration).
As a matter of fact, considering Luke was hit with a lot of lightning, and still managed to get up immediately after - it's not far fetched to say that Vader, who got hit with a lot less, wouldn't die quickly, in addition to the matter that Sidious' lightning wasn't at its upper limit (or apparently near).
Now, I'm not saying that Darth Vader dies instantly, but if Count Dooku can launch a similar barrage of lightning like that he uses on Bulq, I'd surmise that Vader would be in too much shock to do much of anything, as I'd argue that his display of lightning during the two on one bout was far more potent than the lightning Sidious administered in RotJ.
Originally posted by vader11
If force crush can immediately kill powerful person like Dooku, why Vader don't use it against all his enemies? He may even injured or killed Sidious too. You need to proof that. So, Vader may be better in the force, but you can't deny that Dooku can kill him with lightning. Also, it depends on which Vader it is. If it is the one at the end of ROTS, he would be killed by Dooku.
Are there a rule which say "banned for stupidity"? If yes, you are the first to be banned.
First of all, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. That's like saying "Well if Sidious has an instakill and a force storm, why not use it 24/7". BECAUSE THEY DONT NEED TO. And there's no proof a force crush would work on another powerful force user, because as a powerful force user, you can defeat against such techniques. I don't need to prove anything of the nature, so shut it douchebag. And now you agree that Vader is better in the force? Just 5 minutes ago you were arguing out of your ass about how much Dooku pwns Vader in the force. Make up your mind jackass, you're wasting my time. And I've already argued your stupid point about your force lightning. If Obiwan can block it, then a trained master like Vader can block it as well. And I love your ridiculous "I know you are but what am I" rebuttal, especially when it makes no sense whatsoever. Great job proving how incredibly stupid you are.
Are you silly? I have said many times that it is a pure force fight, so how can Vader block lightning? And I said Vader "may be" more powerful because Sidious teach him for 20 years. I am not saying he must be better than Dooku. And what if this is the Vader at the end of ROTS? He would lose definitely. So, there's no proof a force crush would work on another powerful force user, you said it.
Originally posted by Advent
We know that Force attacks are measured by concentration (at least continuous attacks). Darth Vader broke that concentration by benchpressing Sidious into the air, which caused confusion. While it's obvious that the lightning generated at that point [upon Luke] was intensified, it doesn't mean it had increased tenfold, much less that Vader got hit with the same amount of power.I'd say we'd have to take into consideration that a blast similar to the one that knocked Sora Bulq unconscious would kill him far faster than Sidious' wild assault, which [b]wasn't
even focused on Darth Vader, but instead drawn to. Especially a more concentrated, and seemingly more powerful version given that Vader is far more susceptible to lightning than Sora Bulq is.Just to reinforce, Sidious may have been radiating in lightning, but the power more than likely could not have been the same, and the attack was not generated specifically toward Vader.
2. "In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader."
Excerpt from the RotJ novel. If you notice, usually one is not "flailing wildly" when they are concentrated or focused. If you also will note, it says that the lightning "ripped across the room", and implies it was drawn to Darth Vader, so again it's illogical to assume that the energies emitted from the waves of lightning would be as powerful if a) concentration was broken and b) if it wasn't even focused on him.
3. Given that the lightning didn't kill him in the Emporer's Throne room (as he was carried by Luke, still alive), it's also highly implausible that Sidious' lightning - which we've seen demolish an entire battalion of Stormtroopers, utterly destroy Mace Windu, and floor Yoda (which not apply immense strength, or continuous) - was anywhere near its apex. From what we've displayed of it, it seemed to be less damaging to a man who is a crippled cyborg, who's suit is a conduit for electricity. Which leads one to believe it was hardly as strong as it could be, and that it was significantly less powerful when applied to Luke, and even less to Vader (as he broke concentration).
As a matter of fact, considering Luke was hit with a lot of lightning, and still managed to get up immediately after - it's not far fetched to say that Vader, who got hit with a lot less, wouldn't die quickly, in addition to the matter that Sidious' lightning wasn't at its upper limit (or apparently near).
Now, I'm not saying that Darth Vader dies instantly, but if Count Dooku can launch a similar barrage of lightning like that he uses on Bulq, I'd surmise that Vader would be in too much shock to do much of anything, as I'd argue that his display of lightning during the two on one bout was far more potent than the lightning Sidious administered in RotJ. [/B]
I can see that. I was thinking more along the lines of Anakin's personal strength in the force aided him in surviving longer, much as it did on Mustafar. I highly doubt had the same thing happened to stormtroopers that happened to Anakin, that they would survive. And while it may be tre that the intensity may have gone down once lifted in the air, we still cant say for sure that it was weaker than what Dooku is capable of. We don't know how strong Dooku's lightning can be or if Sidious' begins where Dooku's peaks at. I don't necessarily think that's the case, but i wanted to throw it out there.
@ Vader11
God you suck. He may be more powerful because of Sidious, but youre not saying he's better than Dooku?
And whats with all your "what-ifs?" What if this was Jedi Dooku and didn't have lightning? What if Vader choked him before he oculd do anything? Too many variables when youstart throwing out "what ifs."
Originally posted by vader11
Are you silly? I have said many times that it is a pure force fight, so how can Vader block lightning? And I said Vader "may be" more powerful because Sidious teach him for 20 years. I am not saying he must be better than Dooku. And what if this is the Vader at the end of ROTS? He would lose definitely. So, there's no proof a force crush would work on another powerful force user, you said it.
He's going to block force lightning with a saber, just like a younger less powerful Obiwan did it against Dooku.
Originally posted by Darth SubjektEven if Vader is better than Dooku in force, Dooku still have the chance to beat him. And you are wrong, this thread is Darth Vader vs Darth Tyranus, no Jedi Dooku. Darth Tyranus can beat the Vader at the end of ROTS.
@ Vader11God you suck. He may be more powerful because of Sidious, but youre not saying he's better than Dooku?
And whats with all your "what-ifs?" What if this was Jedi Dooku and didn't have lightning? What if Vader choked him before he oculd do anything? Too many variables when youstart throwing out "what ifs."
I didn't know you made this thread vader 11. If you had, then you can make up your own rules. So basically you are taking everything away from Vader to try and make your point work. That's like me saying "Ok if you blindfold Luke and tie him to a tree, there's no way he can block "insert force user with force lightning capabilities here" lightning blast.
Re: Darth Vader versus Darth Tyranus
Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Who will win and why?The battle take place in the Dune Sea on Tatooine.
Last I checked this was the setting, so there was no "pure force fight" in there. I'm glad you decided to change your opinion to better suit your argument. Try again tiger.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I was thinking more along the lines of Anakin's personal strength in the force aided him in surviving longer, much as it did on Mustafar.
True, and it did to a degree, that and more, as much is noted in the actual novelization:
"Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor." (Return of the Jedi, Ch. 9).
However, I do highly doubt he wouldn't be able to hang on for as long as he did had the intensities of the lightning bolts been applied with some power, and not the apparent weak energies Palpatine was using.
I highly doubt had the same thing happened to stormtroopers that happened to Anakin, that they would survive.
That'd be a site to see, Stormtroopers a la roast.
And while it may be tre that the intensity may have gone down once lifted in the air, we still cant say for sure that it was weaker than what Dooku is capable of.
Actually, we can, and I will.
We can deduce a conclusion from a couple of things. Take a comparison of AotC to RotJ: the neophyte Luke Skywalker was able to recover from Palpatine's surges of lightning in a few seconds at most whereas an undoubtedly stronger Anakin was laid out for a minute plus from a single handed attack. Furthermore, as I've already shown, Count Dooku rendered Sora Bulq unconscious without applying it with both hands, now unless you're telling me that Luke in RotJ has a stronger defense, or is more capable than Bulq, then I'd say it's logical to assume that it was lesser than what Dooku can, and has summoned up in the past.
Moreover, like I said, the lightning emitted by Palpatine that was drawn to Vader would not have been even as strong as what we saw him administer to Luke, seeing as his concentration was broken by Darth Vader's "turncoat surprise". And, as we all should know, the less focused you are during an attack, the less potent your abilities will be.
We don't know how strong Dooku's lightning can be
We've seen a highly impressive display of his lightning in my main article of evidence, now when we take into account that Vader is far more susceptible than Sora Bulq due to the obvious facts, it's fairly obvious reasonable to say that - at the very least - Darth Vader wouldn't be able to react, or conjure up any force powers because of the shock.
or if Sidious' begins where Dooku's peaks at.
Uh, what? I'm not understanding what you're trying to relay here. Elaborate.
