The Living Tribunal vs Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and btw, i would love to see those scans{that you have apparently prepared} that show lucifer and micheal together creating nuthing more than a universe and where lucifer is god's servant and will{another ridiculous thing as lucifer is THE DEVIL the opposite of god's will and power.

You're definition of Lucifer there shows your lack of understanding of the comics you claim to be a fan of. You seem to have comic book Lucifer mixed up with both your ideas of the real world Devil and the comics The Great Evil Beast.

Here are the scans that support Lucifer and Michael both being required for the formation of a universe:

If Lucifer could make a univeres on his own then why would he need to make to Michael a proposition? Hmmmm:

One of the host talks of how the demiurgic explosion resultant from killing Michael would destroy the worlds. Nothing is mentioned of a multiverse:

Michael talks of how Lucifer has taken him outside of Presences creation (which i will later prove to be a universe):

The resultant explosion leaves the Presences universe intact proving that the release of Michaels demiurgic energies is enough to destroy a universe. However it lays down the demiurgic matter which are the building blocks for a new creation:

If the explosion was multiversal it would have taken out Presences universe as well. But as you can see it didnt as Michael leaves the void to fly back to it leaving Lucifer to shape the demiurgic matter left into his own universe:

Here Lucifer is shaping the demiurgic matter he required from Michael to create his own UNIVERSE. The captions state he is making his own UNIVERSE:

Lucifer refers to the gateway he made to his own creation as a "hole in the universe" . That confirms that Presences creation is a universe:

He then says here that god has no authority in his UNIVERSE:

A recap in issue 21 states quite clearly only Gods demiurgic power can bring about the creation of a universe and also that those powers were bestowed by God to MICHAEL:

Here Meleos confirms that while Michael was given the demiurgic power, Lucifer was given gods will:

The next issue Meleos again says that God out of everything made Lucifer and Michael first and again that Michael had the demiurgic power and Lucifer gods will:

Later in the issue in a conversation with Lucifer, Death again confirms that the Presences creation is indeed a universe:

The creation of a universe requires both Michael and Lucifer. Michael provides the matter and life essence whilst Lucifer shapes that into planets , stars, galaxies etc.

Lucifers death would not result in a demiurgic explosion because that is not the power he was given by god. His brother was.

Michaels demiurgic explosion resulted in a universe destroying blast not a multiversal one. It lays down the building blocks for a new creation.

The Presences creation is a universe as is Lucifers.

Indeed a universe created external to God, hmmmmm

External to god 🙂

Keep the faith, So much for the white Crown Phoenix is a tool 🙂 Phoenix works within Gods multiverse 🙂

Lucifer is not 🙂 Lucifer went outside it

Point made, again🙂 By GS for me

Stay Whirly 🤘

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Indeed a universe created external to God, hmmmmm

External to god 🙂

Keep the faith, So much for the white Crown Phoenix is a tool 🙂 Phoenix works within Gods multiverse 🙂

Lucifer is not 🙂 Lucifer went outside it

Point made, again🙂 By GS for me

Stay Whirly 🤘

As ive proved it was a universe made external to Dc gods universe.

In comic book battles as per forum rules the characters are both at the peak of their powers and fighting in conditions where their powers operate as normal so im sorry to dismiss your feeble attempt to make a point out of my post. You've run out of steam old man. 😱 😂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As ive proved it was a universe made external to Dc gods universe.

In comic book battles as per forum rules the characters are both at the peak of their powers and fighting in conditions where their powers operate as normal so im sorry to dismiss your feeble attempt to make a point out of my post. You've run out of steam old man. 😱 😂

Originally posted by Juntai
But then in Spectre, the latest series[Hal's], you realise that Hell and Satan are actually just the way you percieve your own afterlife should be. And that each Heaven and Hell are interweaving but also personal to yourself... so in essence-- he wouldn't need Micheal, he IS Micheal, Is the Presence..

That doesnt mean that there is no Lucifer and Michael as entities and it certainly doesnt mean that they are one and the same. That was a bit of a stretch Juntai. Have a read of Lucifer before you try to apply your theories to it. In the same way Galactus is inetrpreted differently to different races of people as shown in StormBreaker however there is still a world devouring entity behind each races interpretation of the threat.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That doesnt mean that there is no Lucifer and Michael as entities and it certainly doesnt mean that they are one and the same. That was a bit of a stretch Juntai. Have a read of Lucifer before you try to apply your theories to it. In the same way Galactus is inetrpreted differently to different races of people as shown in StormBreaker however there is still a world devouring entity behind each races interpretation of the threat.

However, by figuring out what I explained earlier is how Abin Sur escaped Hell's torment... by realising he wasn't in it at all, and that it and Satan are synominous with Heaven and God..and it's all interpretation of what your own soul believes it deserves. It is the Presence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The creation of a universe requires both Michael and Lucifer. Michael provides the matter and life essence whilst Lucifer shapes that into planets , stars, galaxies etc.

Lucifers death would not result in a demiurgic explosion because that is not the power he was given by god. His brother was.

Michaels demiurgic explosion resulted in a universe destroying blast not a multiversal one. It lays down the building blocks for a new creation.

The Presences creation is a universe as is Lucifers.

If Michael was killed in the Presence's multiverse then it would have destroyed all of existence everywhere, that's why Amenadiel and the rest of the angels didn't attack Lucifer and allowed him to go into the void. They knew if they killed Michael by accident then it was all over.

Michael and Lucifer were also the ones who created the first Multiverse after being created by God.

Here's something from another site that pretty much sums it up:

"Amenadiel took the armies of heaven under his command and attacked Lucifer, to close down the gate to the void. But Lucifer outsmarted them too, he put a monster he had recently hired on the other side to eat anyone who dared cross the gate to the void, and he also rescued his brother Michael from Sandalphon, another rebellious angel. Michael has the demiurgic power, if he dies, the power explodes and wipes out the entire multiverse. No angel dared to attack Lucifer while he carried Michael's body, and Lucifer had promised Michael, that he would kill him, which was the only way to heal Michael, because it would allow him to resurrect himself without all the scars Sandalphon gave him. Amenadiel had two choices, let Lucifer kill Michael in creation and destroy everything, or let Lucifer keep the gate and kill Michael in the void.

Lucifer took Michael into the void and killed him, the demiurgic power created matter in the void, like it did when it created the original multiverse. Lucifer later shaped the matter into a new multiverse, creating worlds and galaxies."

Good scans btw. 🙂

Originally posted by Juntai
Right, just as Spectre is the face of god to all races across the universe..

However, by figuring out what I explained earlier is how Abin Sur escaped Hell's torment... by realising he wasn't in it at all, and that it and Satan are synominous with Heaven and God..and it's all interpretation of what your own soul believes it deserves. It is the Presence.

That writers interpretation of hell doesnt dictate what hell is in the Dc universe. To my knowledge thats the first time that hell has been treated in that manner and until it is supported by other sources cannot be taken to represent Dc's take on hell and Satan.

In the Lucifer comics for example Lucifer and Michael are not one and the same as the Presence. They are his creations and potential successors. If they were one and the same then Yahwehs departure wouldnt be causing the problems it currently is within the Lucifer title.