The Living Tribunal vs Lucifer Morningstar

Originally posted by Madguitarist
If Michael was killed in the Presence's multiverse then it would have destroyed all of existence everywhere, that's why Amenadiel and the rest of the angels didn't attack Lucifer and allowed him to go into the void. They knew if they killed Michael by accident then it was all over.

Michael and Lucifer were also the ones who created the first Multiverse after being created by God.

Here's something from another site that pretty much sums it up:

"Amenadiel took the armies of heaven under his command and attacked Lucifer, to close down the gate to the void. But Lucifer outsmarted them too, he put a monster he had recently hired on the other side to eat anyone who dared cross the gate to the void, and he also rescued his brother Michael from Sandalphon, another rebellious angel. Michael has the demiurgic power, if he dies, the power explodes and wipes out the entire multiverse. No angel dared to attack Lucifer while he carried Michael's body, and Lucifer had promised Michael, that he would kill him, which was the only way to heal Michael, because it would allow him to resurrect himself without all the scars Sandalphon gave him. Amenadiel had two choices, let Lucifer kill Michael in creation and destroy everything, or let Lucifer keep the gate and kill Michael in the void.

Lucifer took Michael into the void and killed him, the demiurgic power created matter in the void, like it did when it created the original multiverse. Lucifer later shaped the matter into a new multiverse, creating worlds and galaxies."

Good scans btw. 🙂

Thanks for your input much appreciated, but as you can see from the scans themselves there is no multiverse in terms of the Lucifer title. It is very much a universe. That was the whole point of me posting those scans as they prove that point.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thanks for your input much appreciated, but as you can see from the scans themselves there is no multiverse in terms of the Lucifer title. It is very much a universe. That was the whole point of me posting those scans as they prove that point.

again apples and oranges, by GS's reasoning the Christian god is now less powerful than his beloved Phoenix. 🙂

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
again apples and oranges, by GS's reasoning the Christian god is now less powerful than his beloved Phoenix. 🙂

Not at all. Your lack of understanding makes you come to such ridiculous conclusions on my posts. As a long time comic book reader you should be able to see just why im totally correct in saying that they only created a universe without that fact having any repercussions on the hierarchy. Think about it old man. 😱

They created a Universe external to god and gods will - Phoenix can't do that 🙂

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
They created a Universe external to god and gods will - Phoenix can't do that 🙂

Phoenix cant do that or chooses not to do that because she has no personal reasons to do so? Michael never went and made his own universe that doesnt make him any less important than Lucifer. We know she certainly has the power to do so alone. That isnt in debate. Also Jeans actions in New Xmen 154 show you whilst she works for the Crown she is certainly not a mindless puppet who is restricted to doing only what the Crown instructs her to do. Wrong again old man 😱 😂

Originally posted by leonheartmm
are u a pathological liar galactic storm?

Actully it's true what GalacticStorm has said.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
{another ridiculous thing as lucifer is THE DEVIL the opposite of god's will and power.

No, that is like saying Lucifer is equal to GOd, which is not.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Actully it's true what GalacticStorm has said.

Im starting to like you more and more XP. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix cant do that or chooses not to do that because she has no personal reasons to do so? Michael never went and made his own universe that doesnt make him any less important than Lucifer. We know she certainly has the power to do so alone. That isnt in debate. Also Jeans actions in New Xmen 154 show you whilst she works for the Crown she is certainly not a mindless puppet who is restricted to doing only what the Crown instructs her to do. Wrong again old man 😱 😂

Then she doesn't weild gods power if she can go against it

I hold to the idea that if anything at all is saved in any way, it was the will of the presence. Regardless of how personal it may seem. Otherwise it would not be saved. Do you have a scan of her going against the presence's will? Because if she's an aspect of the divine, then she must adhere to it's rules.

Originally posted by Juntai
I hold to the idea that if anything at all is saved in any way, it was the will of the presence. Regardless of how personal it may seem. Otherwise it would not be saved. Do you have a scan of her going against the presence's will? Because if she's an aspect of the divine, then she must adhere to it's rules.

my point exactly phoenix is a tool, nothing on her own really 🙂

All I see Phoenix alone can do what Lucifer can't do. To create everything, something Lucifer can't. Phoenix craetion power is beyond Lucifer=fact.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Then she doesn't weild gods power if she can go against it

By saving the universe of her origin how is Jean going against gods power? The Crown instructs her to manifest in creation to carry out her phoenix work. She did that by ridding creation of Sublime and amputating that future from the timeline. However that resulted in the 616 universe becoming an orphan universe i.e it had broken away from the rest of creation as a result of that work however that happening to it wasnt the intention of the crown. It was just an unfortunate consequence.

Because that was her native universe Jean wanted to save it and therefore healed it in the crown and reversed time to prevent that future from occuring. She did that for personal reasons, however she wasnt going against the Crown because she had completed her phoenix work and her personal actions didnt interfere with it. Ok? 😄 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By saving the universe of her origin how is Jean going against gods power. The Crown instructs her to manifest in creation to carry out her phoenix work. She did that by ridding creation of Sublime and amputating that future from the timeline. However that resulted in the 616 universe becoming an orphan universe i.e it had broken away from the rest of creation as a result of that wrok however that happening to it wasnt the intention of the crown. It was just an unfortunate consequence.

Because that was her native universe Jean wanted to save it and therefore healed it in the crown and reversed time to prevent that future from occuring. She did that for personal reasons, however she wasnt going against the Crown because she had completed her phoenix work and her personal actions didnt interfere with it. Ok? 😄 🙂

Originally posted by Juntai
Are saying that the presence is fallible?

How you came to that conclusion from reading my post i really dont know. You obviously dont read Marvel which is fair enough but to debate Marvel you really need to give it a go. For you to understand what im going on about, try reading New Xmen.

What matters to the Crown is that the cycle of creation continues. The fate of a single universe is inconsequential as if you know anything of the omega point theory a destroyed universe can be brought back into existence in the end anyway.

However Jean for personal reasons wanted to save the 616 universe and so she did so. That didnt interfere with her Crown work however its a demonstration of how she can act outside of her instructions from the Crown, as long as her phoenix work is complete and not interfered with by her actions.

Don't try to make your bad writing seem like my neivity. It's two very different things. You said: "however that happening to it wasnt the intention of the crown. It was just an unfortunate consequence."

This to me shows you saying that the presence is fallible.
Everything is the intention of the presence.

Originally posted by Juntai
Don't try to make your bad writing seem like my neivity. It's two very different things. You said: "however that happening to it wasnt the intention of the crown. It was just an unfortunate consequence."

This to me shows you saying that the presence is fallible.
Everything is the intention of the presence.

If you'd read my post properly you'd see that by the omega point theory which Grant Morrison incorporated into the Phoenix concept, that universe would be born again at the end of creation anyway. So its end now was irrelevant. Hence the reason why the other phoenixes said to Jean they wouldnt bother. However Jean got all sentimental because it was her own universe and she decided to heal it there and then anyway. Ok?🙂

But similar to The Spectre, she is still bound by the will of the presence, otherwise the presence would be fallible, correct?

Originally posted by Juntai
But similar to The Spectre, she is still bound by the will of the presence, otherwise the presence would be fallible, correct?

If you read Lucifer then you'll find out that despite all of his betrayals all of his actions were foreseen and were actually in accordance with the will of the Presence. Check out issues 38 to 40 for further information. 🙂

I see the point youre trying to make, in fact i saw it about half an hour ago. However in light of what i have just told you, it is irrelevant. As long as Jean doesnt interfere with the phoenix work which she is commisioned to do by the Crown then she can very act of her own volition.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you read Lucifer then you'll find out that despite all of his betrayals all of his actions were foreseen and were actually in accordance with the will of the Presence. Check out issues 38 to 40 for further information. 🙂

I see the point youre trying to make, in fact i saw it about half an hour ago. However in light of what i have just told you, it is irrelevant. As long as Jean doesnt interfere with the phoenix work which she is commisioned to do by the Crown then she can very act of her own volition.

You also just described The Spectre.

Originally posted by Juntai
You also just described The Spectre.

Then so be it. But as ive told you Lucifer is subject to the Presences will also. As is made quite clear in the comic. All of his actions were cool with Presence. When Lucifer did something which the Presence didnt agree with (the formation of his own universe) the presence didnt act as stated in Lucifer 21 because as foreseen by the Presence, Lucifers actions were to result in the downfall of him and his work anyway. Therefore just like Jean or the Spectre as long as Lucifer acts in accordance with the will of God everythings fine. When Lucifer strays however he is dealt with.