Jesus Christ

Originally posted by Jury
Well, I didn't come here for contest.

I came here to answer the question at hand:

[b]Is God and Jesus the same person?

The concern of the question at hand is about the "number".

So my answer was, no... because according to the Bible God and Jesus Christ are two distinct "entities" and/or "persons".

The Father is not the Son, obviously... and also not the Holy Spirit.

But the Bible declares that the Father ALONE is the true God.

Clear, concise, and definite.

The reason and logic can determine that it is impossible to consider that the only true God and Jesus Christ are of one "entity" and/or "person".

I'm not here to uphold my own personal opinions. That's why I have to use the Bible to answer the question at hand.

Is God and Jesus the same person?

God is Jesus' Father (John 20:17).
Jesus is God's Son (Matthew 3:17).
The Father ALONE is God (John 17:1-3)

If you consider them as one same person... then you defy the reason and logic.

🙂 [/B]

Actually... If you consider the strangeness of God being love by loving himself... If you look at the times when Jesus puts himself on the same level as God (which we couldn't do...) If you consider the power of the Holy Spirit... Then it seems less logical

Yes. They love each other, and therefore God is Love. The best way of displaying that is a father and son relationship. You have a problem with love?

Number three... didn't remember that one. Thanks

1 When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone in all the earth. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life – to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by doing everything you told me to do. 5 And now, "Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began."

Nice finishing verse.

Originally posted by Jury
Jesus never declared that He has power of His own. Instead, He proclaimed that everything He does and everything He says comes from His Father. For without Him, Jesus can do nothing.

🙂

Yet at Jesus' word, forty legions (ish) of angels would come to save him. That's power. Jesus cannot do anything divine without himself.

Originally posted by Ytaker
What about all those blokes who lived before Jesus, the ones who didn't when the "born of Mary" came, who saw the invisible God ?

Plus... Since when has the King James Bible ever been considered a good translation?

Actually, there are some who indeed "saw God".... And me too, as a Christian, can prove that even until now "I can see God". But remember that the Bible proclaimed that nobody can see God physically because God is invisible. I'll get back to this .. sooner. 🙂

P.S. It is not my concern on about what is the correct translation and the most reliable ones, though it is indeed very important. But when I post that, what i totally meant and trying to point out is that the "thought" or the "message" the verse is trying to convey through DIFFERENT translations... and it came up as one thought and meaning.

Remember also that there is no perfect translation and no poor version of the Scriptures. The translators only work on the knowledge of their time. I'll get back to this also. 🙂

Just very busy now with drawing jobs. 😉

Originally posted by Ytaker
When Jesus has removed all his omniscient powers through Kenosis...

Oh, Kenosis again. 🙄

Jesus... removing his powers? 😖hifty: Hmmm... okay. I'll think about that. 🙄

Originally posted by Ytaker
Actually... If you consider the strangeness of God being love by loving himself... If you look at the times when Jesus puts himself on the same level as God (which we couldn't do...) If you consider the power of the Holy Spirit... Then it seems less logical

Yes. They love each other, and therefore God is Love. The best way of displaying that is a father and son relationship. You have a problem with love?

Number three... didn't remember that one. Thanks

1 When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you. 2 For you have given him authority over everyone in all the earth. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him. 3 And this is the way to have eternal life – to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. 4 I brought glory to you here on earth by doing everything you told me to do. 5 And now, "Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began."

Nice finishing verse.

Ohhhhhh, STRANGENESS of God.... Sorry, God is not STRANGE for me. I experience Him every day of my life. 🙂

Eh? And what is that love again? 🙄 Something wrong with love? 🙄

God = 1

Father = God
Father != Son ; '!=' - not
Son != Holy Spirit
Father != Holy Spirit

yet Son '=' God???

"LESS" Logical? 🙄 ... very safe comment, huh. 🙂

And thanks for finishing the verse 🙂

Let's COMPARE the translations:

Jn 17:1-5, (KJV)
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jn 17:1-5, (NKJV)
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: " Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jn 17:1-5, (RSV)
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee,
2 since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
4 I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do;
5 and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

John 17:1-5, (YLT)
1 These things spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to the heaven, and said -- `Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee,
2 according as Thou didst give to him authority over all flesh, that -- all that Thou hast given to him -- he may give to them life age-during;
3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;
4 I did glorify Thee on the earth, the work I did finish that Thou hast given me, that I may do [it].
5 `And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

John 17:1-5, (NIV)
1 After Jesus said this, he looked towards heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Clear still. It only proves that the Father, who is the only true God, is different from the One He has sent... and the One who completed the work God gave Him to do.

God and Jesus are two different "persons". They are not one in being God.

Only the Father, not the Son, is considered as the only true God. According to Jesus Christ Himself.

🙂

The same with the Sun. 🙂

The Sun, the sunlight, and the heat. These three are distinct to each other. They are not one for being the Sun.

If Sun is the Sun itself, then, the sunlight is the sunlight itself ... NOT the Sun. The heat is heat .. and also NOT the Sun.

Again, for the question:

"Is God and Jesus the same person?"

Yes. Atl least according to YTaker.

But No. According to the Bible.

"God is Trinity" ???

Originally posted by Ytaker
The main idea is that he's a member of the trinity; three aspects of God. He is the word. The theory of why he's God revolves around the fact that he occasionally shows aspects of God, like omniscience, omnipotence, or restraint (which is not common is prophets). It is commonly accepted Christian doctrine, but there are no actual words from Jesus, where he says,"I am God" in the Bible.

This is quite long. So please, bear with me if you won't mind.

...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity is Unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

-Athanasian Creed
McClintock and Strong encyclopedia
__________

Catholic theologians today maintain that neither a trinity or a plurality of divine persons is taught or revealed explicitly in the Old Testament.

-Edmund J. Fortman
The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity
p. 290
__________

The word 'Trinity' does not appear in the New Testament; and the meanings of the words 'person' and 'nature' in the precise senses in which these words are used to bear the message of God, had to be carefully refined to bear that message rightly.

- Lowler Ronald, Donald Wuerl
The Teaching of Christ: A Catholic Catechism for Adults
p. 177
__________

The doctrine of the Trinity as commonly defined is not found in the Bible. For we assert that there are three persons in one God - a statement not found in Scripture.

Richard W. Chilson
Full Christianity: A Catholic Response to Fundamental Questions
p. 25
__________

This [the Trinity] is a mystery that no human mind can completely understand.

-William J. Cogan
A Catechism for Adults
p. 13

Originally posted by Ytaker
The Holy Trinity is the central Mystery of the Christian Faith. God has however given us some clues in regards to this mystery by what is seen in creation.

...there is a general agreement among theologians that this dogma is a strict mystery...
... that reason alone ... cannot know it ... cannot positively demonstrate it.

-Edmund J. Fortman
The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity
p. 289

Now, if reason itself could not know this so-called mystery, then on what ground should one accept the Trinity doctrine?

Faith is accepting on the word of another. God says that there are three Persons in the One God. If you accept that statement as being true because He said so, then you have faith.

-William J. Cogan
A Catechism for Adults
p. 13

Wait. Faith is accepting something on the word of another. Yes, especially if it is the word of God. But the concept of the Trinity was done beyond the Scriptures. By this very same argument, it is made more evident that only through a blind faith or fanaticism can one accept the Trinity doctrine ... a mysterious doctrine.

The most difficult part and the deepest mystery of the Christian confession of God still stands before us: the confession of the triune or Trinitarian God... The content of this ecumenical confession of the triune God can be stated most succinctly as one God in three persons. The confession does not say that one person equals three persons, or that one God equals three Gods, which is absurd... This confession of the triune God is a deep mystery that no created spirit can discover of itself or ever comprehend.

-David L. Schindler
The Church's Confession of Faith: A Catholic Catechism for Adults
pp. 72-73

Why is it so difficult for them to understand the Trinity doctrine? because it defies reason. Indeed, how could the one true God be manifested in three different persons and still one in number?

Trinitarians will certainly not agree that to say that God is a Trinity, is the same as saying that there are three Gods. But simple logic leads one to no other conclusion than that the Trinitarians are really believing in three Gods. If it were true that the father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, then each of the three would be a distinct being. And they add up to three beings, each of which they consider God. It is illogical to count them as just one God since they are three distinct beings and not just one. It is also unreasonable to just imagine those three, all the way, as one God ... just like that. This is so simple that one does not need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out!

The Trinity is a wonderful mystery. No one understands it. The most learned theologian, the holiest Pope, the greatest saint, all are as mystified by it as the child of seven.

Martin J. Scott
God and Myself: An Inquiry into the True religion
p.118

Sadly, Trinitarians believe in a doctrine that they themselves and their mentors do not understand. What more by an average person on the street? If a person accepts a doctrine that even his mentor could not understand, he must be a blind follower - fanaticism, that is. Both will surely fall into a pit (Matthew 15:14).

If only they were satisfied with the unequal teaching of the apostles concerning who the true God is, they would not become consenting victims to the incongruent doctrine of the Trinity.

Ironically, the Trinitarians are defending an unbiblical doctrine. And always resort into saying that it is shrouded in mystery.

God will surely not allow His people to be fooled by 'mysterious' doctrine regarding Himself. He's not giving us puzzles that he has to give us clues in order to solve and discover a mystery.

"since what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them."
Romans 1:19

In the light of the Scriptures and sound reasoning, we have seen that the Trinity doctrine is absolutely not a wonderful mystery but an absurdity.

🙂

[Next: "Pre-existent Christ" ???]
As response to:

Originally posted by Ytaker
I just had a thought. God is invisible, and a load of people saw him (. So they saw Jesus. He was God then. They called him "God". You cannot see God, just Jesus, and you call him God.

Sarai says "You are the God who sees me," for she said,
"I have now seen the One who sees me" (Gen 16:13)

"So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Gen 32:30)

"Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel." (Ex 24: 9-10)

"they saw God" (Ex 24:11)

"We have seen God!" (Judges 13:22)

John 1:18: "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only (or Only Begotten), who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Thus, John 1:18 does not mean that Jesus was not God, it only means He is not the Father. This verse presents no problems If you believe in the trinity, and when studied helps to find Jesus more often in the OT. Prior to Jesus living among us, and revealing the Father to us, no one had seen the Father. But because of the Incarnation, we can now cry, "Abba, Father" (Romans 8:15) and "Our Father who art in heaven"! Those who see the Son can see the Father.

See you next time.

🙂

”Pre-existent Christ” ???

Originally posted by Ytaker
I just had a thought. God is invisible, and a load of people saw him (. So they saw Jesus. He was God then. They called him "God". You cannot see God, just Jesus, and you call him God.

Sarai says "You are the God who sees me," for she said,
"I have now seen the One who sees me" (Gen 16:13)

"So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Gen 32:30)

"Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel." (Ex 24: 9-10)

"they saw God" (Ex 24:11)

"We have seen God!" (Judges 13:22)

John 1:18: "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only (or Only Begotten), who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Thus, John 1:18 does not mean that Jesus was not God, it only means He is not the Father. This verse presents no problems If you believe in the trinity, and when studied helps to find Jesus more often in the OT. Prior to Jesus living among us, and revealing the Father to us, no one had seen the Father. But because of the Incarnation, we can now cry, "Abba, Father" (Romans 8:15) and "Our Father who art in heaven"! Those who see the Son can see the Father.

The way God manifests Himself to man is by means of His power through the things that He made.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities –
his eternal power and divine nature –
Have been clearly seen, being understood
From what has been made,
So that men are without excuse.”
Romans 1:20, NIV

The Bible, however, does not teach about Christ having pre-existence. Our Lord Jesus Christ did not exist during the time of the patriarchs and the prophets; He was not there before He was born (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-24). Hence, people who lived during the dispensation of the patriarchs could not have seen Christ in the flesh because the promise, or the God’s plan, concerning Christ was not yet fulfilled (Romans 1:2-3).

Since when did God make a promise about His plan concerning Christ?

So the LORD God said to the serpent:
‘Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field; …
And I will put enmity Between You and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel!
Genesis 3:14-15, NKJV

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee
and thy seed after thee in their generations
for an everlasting covenant, to be God into thee,
and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:7, KJV

And who is this seed?

Now to Abraham and his Seed
were the promises made. He saith not,
And to seeds, as of many; but as of one,
And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Galatians 3:16, KJV

Christ is the seed of Abraham. And God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham that God would be God unto Abraham and to his Seed. It means that the covenant stipulates that Abraham and his Seed shall deify God; God shall be God unto them, both to Abraham and his Seed, who is Jesus Christ. Far from being a God, Christ is someone who was destined to recognize the true God.

So there was no pre-existent Christ. There was no Christ prior to the fulfillment of the plan of God concerning Him. What was there with God in the beginning was the “Word” or the thought or the plan concerning Christ, not Christ Himself.

In the beginning was the Word.
And the Word was with God,
And the Word was God.
John 1:1, NKJV

And the Word was made flesh,
and dwelt among us,
(and we behold his glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
John 1:14, KJV

This is the fulfillment of the plan or the “word” of God concerning Christ – when the time had fully come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under law.

He was chosen before the creation of the world,
but was revealed in this last times for your sake.
I Peter 1:20, NIV

But when the time had fully come,
God sent his Son,
Born of a woman,
Born under law.
Galatians 4:4, NIV

My next post would be about this:

Originally posted by Ytaker
If God had a plan, and Jesus was the fulfilment of that plan, then Jesus=God due to his omnipresence.

The Bible has the answer.
See you next time.

🙂

God doesn't exist and Jezus was some crazy guy who lived in the year 0 in Palestine.

🙂

If Jesus and God are the same person, then WHO was runing the universe for 3 days when Jesus/God died on the cross? Who were people praying to? Who was answering prayers?

"God doesn't exist and Jezus was some crazy guy who lived in the year 0 in Palestine."

😆 ur outnumbered with that view on this particular thread 🙂

Originally posted by Fiery Eyes
If Jesus and God are the same person, then WHO was runing the universe for 3 days when Jesus/God died on the cross? Who were people praying to? Who was answering prayers?

✅ And if Jesus and God are really one person, did God change from Spirit into an infant by the time Mary gave birth to Jesus?

🙄

I was raised as a Catholic and we belive in Trinity
but since God doesn't exist (its true believe me)
they are not the same
well maybe if Nietzsche is right and God is dead they might be the same but he is not so whatever.

Originally posted by Jury
✅ And if Jesus and God are really one person, did God change from Spirit into an infant by the time Mary gave birth to Jesus?

🙄

Thants a good point too!!

"God=Omnipresent=Jesus" ???

Originally posted by Ytaker
If God had a plan, and Jesus was the fulfilment of that plan, then Jesus=God due to his omnipresence.

As you yourself know, the word "omnipresent" means being present in all places all the time (The Merriam-Webster Dictionary). Remember, that Jesus needed to travel to different places to preach the good news when He was still here on earth. He need not to do that if He is omnipresent.

God, indeed, had a plan concerning Christ. But that doesn't mean that Christ Himself was already there with God in the beginning. What was there in the beginning was the plan about the Christ, the glory of having Christ in the future.

God's omnipresence, on the other hand, is pretty obvious in the Bible:

I am God who is everywhere
and not in one place only.
Jeremiah 23:23, TEV

However, we should not think that the omnipresence of God is the same as pantheism - equating God with the combined forces and laws that are manifested in the existing universe. For example, we should not think that God is in the table in our living rooms and therefore, that table should be worshipped. God is omnipresent in the sense that he can see everyone and everything and no one can hide from Him. This quality of God is inherent to Him eternally (all the time).

No one can hide where I cannot see him.
Do you not know that I am everywhere
in heaven and on earth?
Jeremiah 23:24, TEV

🙂

Originally posted by Ytaker
God performed Kenosis (An emptying, the exact nature of which is for a different thread), and put his essence into a human. The human was limited, due to the requirements of the crucifixion. Some time later, Jesus and God reunited, when Jesus ascended.

Originally posted by Ytaker
Jesus performed Kenosis, which meant that the Godly might was in heaven where it belongs. He emptied himself of the emptied use of his abilities.

Yes, next time, if I'm not this busy. 😄

Originally posted by Jury
Actually, there are some who indeed "saw God".... And me too, as a Christian, can prove that even until now "I can see God". But remember that the Bible proclaimed that nobody can see God physically because God is invisible. I'll get back to this .. sooner. 🙂

P.S. It is not my concern on about what is the correct translation and the most reliable ones, though it is indeed very important. But when I post that, what i totally meant and trying to point out is that the "thought" or the "message" the verse is trying to convey through DIFFERENT translations... and it came up as one thought and meaning.

Remember also that there is no perfect translation and no poor version of the Scriptures. The translators only work on the knowledge of their time. I'll get back to this also. 🙂

Just very busy now with drawing jobs. 😉

Yes but nobody can see God. According to the bible. The idea is that Trinitarian views push aside irrevocable contradictions. All I have to do is hold my ground till the storm is over, and I win because mine works.

Yes it is. You said that my translation was wrong, and that the five you had were better. I said that you put out one who can be trusted to get something wrong if it is possible. For instance, 2 Kings:23 says "And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

The Greek, says that they're young men, of about 16-20. It would be very menacing having 42 burly young men swear at you. Not so with little children.

The maker was rushed, as there was another group of people who were rumoured to be putting out an English bible translation. He is never to be trusted.

Originally posted by Jury
Ohhhhhh, STRANGENESS of God.... Sorry, God is not STRANGE for me. I experience Him every day of my life. 🙂

Eh? And what is that love again? 🙄 Something wrong with love? 🙄

God = 1

Father = God
Father != Son ; '!=' - not
Son != Holy Spirit
Father != Holy Spirit

yet Son '=' God???

"LESS" Logical? 🙄 ... very safe comment, huh. 🙂

Are you quoting a verse that says God is One? Father= Mastermind
Son=carrying out plan part forgiveness(God does his own dirty work)Holy Spirit equals plan interaction with the love of God.

Originally posted by Jury

Clear still. It only proves that the Father, who is the only true God, is different from the One He has sent... and the One who completed the work God gave Him to do.

God and Jesus are two different "persons". They are not one in being God.

Only the Father, not the Son, is considered as the only true God. According to Jesus Christ Himself.

🙂

The same with the Sun. 🙂

The Sun, the sunlight, and the heat. These three are distinct to each other. They are not one for being the Sun.

If Sun is the Sun itself, then, the sunlight is the sunlight itself ... NOT the Sun. The heat is heat .. and also NOT the Sun.

Again, for the question:

"Is God and Jesus the same person?"

Yes. Atl least according to YTaker.

But No. According to the Bible. [/B]

Yes, as according to the good idea in the bible, he was with him before the world. Onto your attempt to push my metaphor off the cliff...

Actually they are. We say things like "the Sun's heat..." or "The Sun's Rays" in things like www.eere.energy.gov/RE/solar.html "...solar power technologies use reflective materials such as mirrors to concentrate the sun's energy". The sunlight is "the sun's energy".

Back to you later on this one when I re-read my posts and remember my philosophising.