Jesus Christ

Originally posted by Jury
How can still be the same when one says the other is greater than the other? How can that be the same?

How can They be the same when Jesus declares the Father as the ONLY true God without including Himself?

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven,
and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son,
that Your Son also may glorify You,
as You have given Him authority over all flesh,
that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
And this is eternal life,
that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:1-3, NKJV

Originally posted by Nellinator
Because Jesus 'emptied' himself of certain things. Also, I do not believe Jesus was the wholeness of the Spirit but a completing part of it. Therefore, though Jesus had all power and authority, he did not know the hour of the second coming nor did was immune to temptation (although he overcame it). I think he did this to be an example for us, that the through the power of the Holy Spirit we can overcome all anything in this world.

If He is God and knows everything and just because He humbled Himself, He is free to say that "No one knows when the Judgment Day will be.. except the Father"? What kind of Jesus you have then?

Originally posted by Jury
How can They be the same when Jesus declares the Father as the ONLY true God without including Himself?

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven,
and said: "[b]Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son,
that Your Son also may glorify You,
as You have given Him authority over all flesh,
that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
And this is eternal life,
that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:1-3, NKJV [/B]

Originally posted by Jury
That is "humbleness"... But it would not be the reason why He would say the Father is greater than Him though they are the same?

If He is God and knows everything and just because He humbled Himself, He is free to say that "No one knows when the Judgment Day will be.. except the Father"? What kind of Jesus you have then?

ISAIAH 9:6
A proof that Jesus is God?

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6, NKJV

In context, we can all see and comprehend that the verse is not saying that Jesus is God. What the verse is trying to say is that "a child will be born and will be given a government or authority". As a Christian, I believe that this was fulfilled to Jesus Christ.

Because of this government and authority, His name will be called "Wonderful, Councelor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

Take note, as it is obvious... only ONE name is being raised there. It didn't say that the "child" will be given with "names"... but by virtue of his authority, his name will be called "Wonderful, Councelor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

That is surely the TITLE of Jesus' Government and Authority. It is not logical to say that the "child" mentioned there be called the "Mighty God" or the "Everlasting Father" as they were personal names or titles... but the name of the child's authority. It is because the verse says only ONE name.

Yes. Hebrew names have meanings. They are mostly phrases... but doesn't necessarily apply to the bearer of the name personally. Joshua's name means "YHWH the Savior" but Joshua is not. These system applies with other Hebrew names, too. Same applies with Jesus' authority.

Originally posted by Nellinator
He does include himself because he states that he gives eternal life that they may know him. For Jesus to give the eternal life he must possess the eternal life which is the Father.

No need to interpret the verse. It's clear and definite.

Eternal life means two things:
1. To recognize that the Father ALONE is the true God
2. And to recognize that this ONE TRUE GOD sent Jesus

Originally posted by Nellinator
He emptied himself. He gave a part of his being. He is no longer lesser though because he has returned to Father.

Lesser to whom? He is lesser to Himself? 😛

Originally posted by Jury
[b]ISAIAH 9:6
A proof that Jesus is God?

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6, NKJV

In context, we can all see and comprehend that the verse is not saying that Jesus is God. What the verse is trying to say is that "a child will be born and will be given a government or authority". As a Christian, I believe that this was fulfilled to Jesus Christ.

Because of this government and authority, His name will be called "Wonderful, Councelor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

Take note, as it is obvious... only ONE name is being raised there. It didn't say that the "child" will be given with "names"... but by virtue of his authority, his name will be called "Wonderful, Councelor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace".

That is surely the TITLE of Jesus' Government and Authority. It is not logical to say that the "child" mentioned there be called the "Mighty God" or the "Everlasting Father" as they were personal names or titles... but the name of the child's authority. It is because the verse says only ONE name.[/B]

* so, the government is Mighty God? Everlasting Father? Prince of Peace? etc... surely, the names are pertaining to a person, NOT a government... unless, you will accept the fact that the government is God... 😕

Originally posted by peejayd
* so, the government is Mighty God? Everlasting Father? Prince of Peace? etc... surely, the names are pertaining to a person, NOT a government... unless, you will accept the fact that the government is God... 😕

I didn't say the government is "Mighty God", "Everlasting Father", etc... Isaiah 9:6 says the government that the "Child" will have bears a name [only one name, not names] or title "Wonderful, Councelor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". We cannot simply chop off each name in this one name and apply to Jesus personally... Because the WHOLE NAME will be called to Him because of the GOVERMENT that will be placed upon His shoulder.

There is no problem if this "Government" is God... because the "Government" and "Authority" given to Christ is of God.

Yet... considering that the TITLE will be chopped off separately and apply to Jesus personally... TECHNICALITY of language translations can be gleaned here... Because, IF AND ONLY IF, translators fairly translated this verse into correct English... we cannot read "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father" in the verse. Hebrew scholars found out that in the whole Isaiah book, "el gibbor" is translated as "hero" or "warrior" in other Isaiah verses except 9:6 which should have been "Mighty Hero" or "Great Warrior" not "Mighty God". "Everlasting Father" should also have been translated as "Father of the Coming Age".

There must be reason why translations of Isaiah 9:6 were biasly done.

Originally posted by Jury
Nope. The Name that God has given Jesus is already a "government" or "authority"... because this Name is, of course, "Above every name".

I didn't say the government is "Mighty God", "Everlasting Father", etc... Isaiah 9:6 says the government that the "Child" will have bears a name [only one name, not names] or title "Wonderful, Councelor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". We cannot simply chop off each name in this one name and apply to Jesus personally... Because the WHOLE NAME will be called to Him because of the GOVERMENT that will be placed upon His shoulder.

There is no problem if this "Government" is God... because the "Government" and "Authority" given to Christ is of God.

* there will be a huge problem in your belief if you accept that the government is God, my friend... it will contradict your belief of only One God...

Originally posted by Jury
Yet... considering that the TITLE will be chopped off separately and apply to Jesus personally... TECHNICALITY of language translations can be gleaned here... Because, IF AND ONLY IF, translators fairly translated this verse into correct English... we cannot read "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father" in the verse. Hebrew scholars found out that in the whole Isaiah book, "el gibbor" is translated as "hero" or "warrior" in other Isaiah verses except 9:6 which should have been "Mighty Hero" or "Great Warrior" not "Mighty God". "Everlasting Father" should also have been translated as "Father of the Coming Age".

There must be reason why translations of Isaiah 9:6 were biasly done.

* even so, there's still Titus 2:13 and II Peter 1:1 to prove that Christ is a God, am i right? 😉

Page 1:

Jury...Page (131): *["I am a Christian and Jesus is NOT God."]
Marchello...Page (131): "Do you acknowledge Jesus as Saviour?"
Jury...Page (131): *[ "Yes. Because the Bible says so."]

***You are NOT a Christian...Jesus Christ IS God...and you do NOT believe the Bible...for IF you believed the Bible [and you do NOT...CONTRARY to your declarations that you do] and HAD a SAVIOUR [which you do NOT] you would KNOW that Jesus Christ IS God Almighty...to wit:

In [Mark 14:61] the high priest asked Jesus, "...Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" What the high priest was asking is: Are you the Son of GOD! Now hear Jesus' ANSWER:..."...I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the RIGHT HAND of POWER [i.e., GOD...as it says He DID in Psalms 110:1], and coming in the clouds of heaven."

So what do we have here in the interrogation of Jesus?...we have the following: (1)The high priest asking Jesus if He is the Son of God and (2) Jesus' AFFIRMATION that He WAS, INDEED, the Son of God!...and the high priest's RESPONSE [v.63] to Jesus' DECLARATION that He WAS the Son of the BLESSED [i.e., God]...by RENTING his clothes and yelling "BLASPHEMY" and CONDEMNING Jesus to DEATH [v.64]. They sentenced Him to death because He declared He WAS God and the Jews RECOGNIZED what He was declaring about Himself!! This is what prompted the apostle Paul to write in [Philippians 2:5-10]: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the FORM of God, thought it NOT robbery to be EQUAL to God: but HUMBLED Himself of NO reputation, and took upon Him the FORM of a SERVANT [i.e., the Servant of Isaiah 53], and was made in the LIKENESS of men: And being found in FASHION as a man, He HUMBLED Himself and became OBEDIENT unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath exalted Him, and given Him a name which is ABOVE every name: That at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE should BOW [YOU will bow when YOU see who He really IS as He sits to the RIGHT HAND of His Father...Psalm 110:1], of things IN HEAVEN, and things IN EARTH, and things UNDER THE EARTH.

Too, I asked you: "Do you acknowledge Jesus as Saviour?"...and you said, "Yes. Because the Bible says so." The Bible does, INDEED, say that Jesus is SAVIOUR...but there is a problem with the ACKNOWLEDGMENT of YOUR "Jesus" as Saviour...he ISN'T the Saviour. The SAVIOUR that you believe in CANNOT "save" ANYONE from their sins...because he IS NOT God!...for ONLY God IS Saviour...to wit: "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know NO GOD but ME: for there is NO SAVIOUR beside ME" [Hosea 13:4]..."...there is NO GOD else beside ME; a just God and SAVIOUR; there is NONE beside ME" [Isaiah 45:21].

The God of the Old Testament is the SAME God as the God in the New Testament...who visited man in the person of Jesus Christ...who is God Incarnate...to wit:

(Continued)

Page 2:

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD INCARNATE

"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD
WITH US" [MATTHEW 1:23]
"...if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" [JESUS CHRIST, JOHN 8:24]
(A)Proofs from the word of God

(1)GOD never changes:
Malachi 3:6-"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

(2)JESUS never changes:
Hebrews 13:8-"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
*******************************************
(1)GOD is the only Saviour
Isaiah 43:11-"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."
Jude 1:12-"To the only wise God our Saviour."
Titus 2:10-"God our Saviour."
1 Timothy 4:10-"...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour."
Luke 1:47-"God my Saviour."

(2)JESUS is the only Saviour
1 John 4:14-"...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."
2 Peter 3:18-"...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
2 Peter 1:1-"...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
John 4:42-"...the Christ, the Saviour of the world."
Titus 1:4-"...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."
Luke 2:11-"...a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."
Acts 4:12-"Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
2 Timothy 2:10-"...salvation...is in Jesus with eternal glory."
Hebrews 2:10-"...captain of their salvation (Jesus) perfect through sufferings."
Hebrews 5:9-"Jesus...author of eternal salvation."
*********************************************
(1)God created the universe and earth by Himself
Isaiah 44:24-"I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth by MYSELF."
Genesis 1:1-"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

(2)Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth by Himself
Hebrews 1:10-"Unto the Son He saith...Thou LORD, in the BEGINNING hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of THINE hands."
Colossians 1:16-"By Him (Jesus) were ALL things CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...ALL things were created BY Him, and FOR Him."
John 1:3-"ALL things were made BY Him; and WITHOUT Him was NOT anything MADE that was MADE."
**********************************************
(1)God is the WORD
John 1:1-"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH God, and the WORD WAS God."

(2)Jesus is the WORD
John 1:14-"...the WORD was made flesh and dwelt among us..."
**********************************************
(1)God is the FIRST and the LAST
Isaiah 41:4-"I the LORD, the FIRST, and with the LAST; I am He."
Isaiah 44:6-"...I am, the FIRST, and I am, the LAST..."
Isaiah 48:12-"...I am the FIRST, and I am also the LAST..."

(2)JESUS is the FIRST and the LAST
Revelation 1:17-"Jesus said, 'Fear not; I am the FIRST and the LAST."
Revelation 2:8-"...These things saith the FIRST and the LAST, which WAS dead and IS alive."
Revelation 21:6-"...I am the ALPHA and OMEGA, the BEGINNING and the END..."
Revelation 22:13-"I am the ALPHA and the OMEGA, the BEGINNING and the END, the FIRST and the LAST."

(Continued)

Page 3:

(1)GOD forgives sins
Psalm 103:2,3-"The Lord...forgiveth all thine iniquities..."
Mark 2:7-"Who can forgive sins but God only?"

(2)JESUS forgives sins
Mark 2:5-"Jesus...said...'Son, thy sins be forgiven thee."
********************************************
(1)GOD is our REDEEMER
Isaiah 63:16-"Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer."

(2)JESUS is our REDEEMER
Titus 2:13-14-"The GREAT GOD and our SAVIOUR Jesus Christ...gave Himself for us, that He might REDEEM us from all INIQUITY."
*********************************************
(1)GOD is one.
Deuteronomy 6:4-"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD."

(2)JESUS and GOD are one.
1 John 5:7-"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
John 14:9-"Jesus saith...'he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?'"
John 10:30-"I and my Father are one."
**********************************************
(1)GOD is the Holy One.
Psalms 71:22-"I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel."
Psalms 78:41-"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel."
Psalms 89:18-"For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king."
Isaiah 10:20-"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Psalms 16:10-"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." [Messianic Psalm about Jesus].

(2)JESUS is the Holy One.
Acts 2:27-"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer THINE HOLY ONE to see corruption."
Acts 3:13-14-"The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath GLORIFIED His SON JESUS; whom ye delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, when He was determined to let Him go. But ye denied the HOLY ONE and the just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you..."
Acts 13:34-35-"And as concerning that He raised Him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, He said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore He saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
***********************************************
(1)Only GOD is worshipped.
Matthew 4:10-"...Then saith Jesus unto him...Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.

(2)JESUS is worshipped
Matthew 9:18-"While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped Him."
Hebrews 1:6-"And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him."
John 20:28-"And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God."
***********************************************
(1)GOD is from everlasting
Psalms 93:1,2-"The LORD reigneth, He is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, whereith He hath girded Himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting."

(2)Messiah Yeshua [JESUS] is from everlasting.
Micah 5:2-"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from old, from everlasting."

(Continued)

Page 4:

The Scriptures bear abundant testimony that the Lord Jesus Christ IS God. The "jesus" that you say is YOUR "saviour" is NOT the JESUS of the SCRIPTURES...YOUR "jesus" is ANOTHER "jesus." YOUR "jesus"...changes...is NOT the ONLY Saviour...did NOT create the universe by Himself...is NOT the "Word of God"...is NOT the "FIRST and the LAST"...CANNOT forgive sins...is NOT the REDEEMER...is NOT "one with the Father"...is NOT "God's SON" but, rather, the DEVIL'S son...is NOT the Holy One of Israel...is NOT the Messiah...is NOT from "everlasting"...is NOT glorified by God...is NOT the GREAT "I AM"...cannot heal diseases...is NOT the JUDGE of the whole earth...has NO LIFE in himself...and, finally, your "jesus" NEVER ROSE FROM THE DEAD!!

MY JESUS [the GREAT God of the Universe and the world's ONLY Saviour]...ROSE from the DEAD...and sits at the RIGHT HAND of the FATHER (Psalms 110:1) and FOREVER makes intercession for us that love Him and await His RETURN in great GLORY and POWER. He is the ONE who will judge those who DENY His DEITY and LORDSHIP...and will make them His FOOTSTOOL. YOU will be among those who will be His FOOTSTOOL!

Marchello

Originally posted by Marchello
YOU will be among those who will be His FOOTSTOOL!

In addition, everyone on the forum seems to like Jury (there's even a thread on it) and I believe that Jesus's love shines through. The evidence shows that he is saved. This is a theological issue, not a salvation issue.

Originally posted by Marchello
MY JESUS [the GREAT God of the Universe and the world's ONLY Saviour]...ROSE from the DEAD...and sits at the RIGHT HAND of the FATHER (Psalms 110:1) and FOREVER makes intercession for us that love Him and await His RETURN in great GLORY and POWER. He is the ONE who will judge those who DENY His DEITY and LORDSHIP...and will make them His FOOTSTOOL. YOU will be among those who will be His FOOTSTOOL!

Marchello

Way to convince me of how loving Jesus is, and that God is good and there is no tyranny in God's sight.

I mean that isn't even "God weeps for those lost" that is "God will make those lost his footstool! Bwahahahaha!"

Footstool indeed.

Wow. Someone had a verbal diarrhea pill for dinner tonight.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Wow. Someone had a verbal diarrhea pill for dinner tonight.

That implies something out of the ordinary. In reality that is his posting style.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
That implies something out of the ordinary. In reality that is his posting style.

Really. I'd not ever seen him before. Perhaps I am falling behind.

Originally posted by peejayd
* there will be a huge problem in your belief if you accept that the government is God, my friend... it will contradict your belief of only One God...

* even so, there's still Titus 2:13 and II Peter 1:1 to prove that Christ is a God, am i right? 😉

And can you please quote Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 for me?

Originally posted by Marchello
Page 1:

Jury...Page (131): *["I am a Christian and Jesus is NOT God."]
Marchello...Page (131): "Do you acknowledge Jesus as Saviour?"
Jury...Page (131): *[ "Yes. Because the Bible says so."]

***You are NOT a Christian...Jesus Christ IS God...and you do NOT believe the Bible...for IF you believed the Bible [and you do NOT...CONTRARY to your declarations that you do] and HAD a SAVIOUR [which you do NOT] you would KNOW that Jesus Christ IS God Almighty...to wit:

In [Mark 14:61] the high priest asked Jesus, "...Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" What the high priest was asking is: Are you the Son of GOD! Now hear Jesus' ANSWER:..."...I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the RIGHT HAND of POWER [i.e., GOD...as it says He DID in Psalms 110:1], and coming in the clouds of heaven."

So what do we have here in the interrogation of Jesus?...we have the following: (1)The high priest asking Jesus if He is the Son of God and (2) Jesus' AFFIRMATION that He WAS, INDEED, the Son of God!...and the high priest's RESPONSE [v.63] to Jesus' DECLARATION that He WAS the Son of the BLESSED [i.e., God]...by RENTING his clothes and yelling "BLASPHEMY" and CONDEMNING Jesus to DEATH [v.64]. They sentenced Him to death because He declared He WAS God and the Jews RECOGNIZED what He was declaring about Himself!! This is what prompted the apostle Paul to write in [Philippians 2:5-10]: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the FORM of God, thought it NOT robbery to be EQUAL to God: but HUMBLED Himself of NO reputation, and took upon Him the FORM of a SERVANT [i.e., the Servant of Isaiah 53], and was made in the LIKENESS of men: And being found in FASHION as a man, He HUMBLED Himself and became OBEDIENT unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath exalted Him, and given Him a name which is ABOVE every name: That at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE should BOW [YOU will bow when YOU see who He really IS as He sits to the RIGHT HAND of His Father...Psalm 110:1], of things IN HEAVEN, and things IN EARTH, and things UNDER THE EARTH.

Too, I asked you: "Do you acknowledge Jesus as Saviour?"...and you said, "Yes. Because the Bible says so." The Bible does, INDEED, say that Jesus is SAVIOUR...but there is a problem with the ACKNOWLEDGMENT of YOUR "Jesus" as Saviour...he ISN'T the Saviour. The SAVIOUR that you believe in CANNOT "save" ANYONE from their sins...because he IS NOT God!...for ONLY God IS Saviour...to wit: "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know NO GOD but ME: for there is NO SAVIOUR beside ME" [Hosea 13:4]..."...there is NO GOD else beside ME; a just God and SAVIOUR; there is NONE beside ME" [Isaiah 45:21].

The God of the Old Testament is the SAME God as the God in the New Testament...who visited man in the person of Jesus Christ...who is God Incarnate...to wit:

(Continued)

Yes, Jesus is the Son of God... Not the God Himself.

Shall we discuss Philippians 2:5-10 then? Can you make your contention regarding this verse alone?