Jesus Christ

Originally posted by clickclick
John 17: 5 says "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

As I keep telling you, The word was with God before. The word is not a plan. Later on the word became flesh (however it still had a divine nature) and Jesus Christ (flesh) was a man.

There is one GOD but God is more complex than you understand.

The concept of the Trinity is in the bible even though the word Trinity is not used.

John 6:38 says, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me"

The father sends the son and the son and the father send the holy spirit.

You believe that the Father is the true God.
You said that Jesus Christ is not exactly God.
And you didn't say that the Holy Spirit is God.

Now, you are saying that the concept of the Trinity is in the Bible. You know what the concept of Trinity is?

...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity is Unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost...
..Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.

Athanasian Creed
McClintock and Strong encyclopedia

_

You are not contradicting yourself, aren't you? 🙄

Yes. The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. That is what Trinitarians and Bible scholars themselves testified:

Originally posted by Jury
Let me first quote some commentary notes regarding how the Trinity doctrine was perceived and defined by various theologians.

This is quite long. So please, bear with me if you won't mind.

Catholic theologians today maintain that neither a trinity or a plurality of divine persons is taught or revealed explicitly in the Old Testament.
-Edmund J. Fortman
The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity
p. 290

The word 'Trinity' does not appear in the New Testament; and the meanings of the words 'person' and 'nature' in the precise senses in which these words are used to bear the message of God, had to be carefully refined to bear that message rightly.

- Lowler Ronald, Donald Wuerl
The Teaching of Christ: A Catholic Catechism for Adults
p. 177

The doctrine of the Trinity as commonly defined is not found in the Bible. For we assert that there are three persons in one God - a statement not found in Scripture.

Richard W. Chilson
Full Christianity: A Catholic Response to Fundamental Questions
p. 25

This [the Trinity] is a mystery that no human mind can completely understand.

-William J. Cogan
A Catechism for Adults
p. 13

...there is a general agreement among theologians that this dogma is a strict mystery...
... that reason alone ... cannot know it ... cannot positively demonstrate it.

-Edmund J. Fortman
The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity
p. 289

Now, if reason itself could not know this so-called mystery, then on what ground should one accept the Trinity doctrine?

Faith is accepting on the word of another. God says that there are three Persons in the One God. If you accept that statement as being true because He said so, then you have faith.

-William J. Cogan
A Catechism for Adults
p. 13[/color]

Wait. Faith is accepting something on the word of another. Yes, especially if it is the word of God. But the concept of the Trinity was done beyond the Scriptures. By this very same argument, it is made more evident that only through a blind faith or fanaticism can one accept the Trinity doctrine ... a mysterious doctrine.

The most difficult part and the deepest mystery of the Christian confession of God still stands before us: the confession of the triune or Trinitarian God... The content of this ecumenical confession of the triune God can be stated most succinctly as one God in three persons. The confession does not say that one person equals three persons, or that one God equals three Gods, which is absurd... This confession of the triune God is a deep mystery that no created spirit can discover of itself or ever comprehend.

-David L. Schindler
The Church's Confession of Faith: A Catholic Catechism for Adults
pp. 72-73

Why is it so difficult for them to understand the Trinity doctrine? because it defies reason. Indeed, how could the one true God be manifested in three different persons and still one in number?

Trinitarians will certainly not agree that to say that God is a Trinity, is the same as saying that there are three Gods. But simple logic leads one to no other conclusion than that the Trinitarians are really believing in three Gods. If it were true that the father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, then each of the three would be a distinct being. And they add up to three beings, each of which they consider God. It is illogical to count them as just one God since they are three distinct beings and not just one. It is also unreasonable to just imagine those three, all the way, as one God ... just like that. This is so simple that one does not need to be a rocket scientist to figure it out!

The Trinity is a wonderful mystery. No one understands it. The most learned theologian, the holiest Pope, the greatest saint, all are as mystified by it as the child of seven.

Martin J. Scott
God and Myself: An Inquiry into the True religion
p.118[/color]

Sadly, Trinitarians believe in a doctrine that they themselves and their mentors do not understand. What more by an average person on the street? If a person accepts a doctrine that even his mentor could not understand, he must be a blind follower - fanaticism, that is. Both will surely fall into a pit (Matthew 15:14).

If only they were satisfied with the unequal teaching of the apostles concerning who the true God is, they would not become consenting victims to the incongruent doctrine of the Trinity.

Ironically, the Trinitarians are defending an unbiblical doctrine. And always resort into saying that it is shrouded in mystery.

God will surely not allow His people to be fooled by 'mysterious' doctrine regarding Himself. He's not giving us puzzles that he has to give us clues in order to solve and discover a mystery.

[size=4]"since what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them."
Romans 1:19

In the light of the Scriptures and sound reasoning, we have seen that the Trinity doctrine is absolutely not a wonderful mystery but an absurdity.

🙂[/size]

I'm done talking with the "Word" which was with God in the beginning, the "Word" which was God. But it doesn't prove that Jesus Christ is part of one God.

Anyway, you have not answered my question. So please be aware.

🙂 I'll be waiting.

I just like screwing with god.....god is so dumb, he doesn't even no how to proove himself. Oh...he's so dumb, because dumb people invented him! 😂

What with these passages?

Considering that Jesus is part of God, who would be the Mediator between God and men? If He is indeed part of one God, do you think there is still a need for a Mediator. Think about it. Do we have two Jesuses? The Jesus who is a part of God and the other Jesus who is the Mediator between this one God and men? Where is your logic?

Live ive previously mentioned, its more complex than you can understand. No big deal I guess but if you think God is that simple, you are wrong. What is the Holy spirit to God? What is Jesus to God? God does what he wants, Jesus obeys.

Jesus is the Lord, he is not another God and he wasnt just a man.

You didnt even address my post either. It states that jesus is gaining wisdom and yet it states that he knows all things.

Simple, Jesus is not saying that He is part of God. In fact He proclaimed that He is distinct from God.

Jesus and His Father are one in taking care of the flock. He mentioned it in the preceeding verses. He is not claiming that they (the Father and Him) are one in being God, is He?

He said -- I am the Son of God. If He is part of one God, how could He be a Son of that one God? Do we have two Jesuses? One Jesus who is a part of one God and the other Jesus who is the Son of this God?

Obviously he is saying he is part of God, try as you may to talk around it. In what I quoted, he was certainly not claiming to be completely independent of.

Like ive stated numerous times now, I dont claim that he is the father but he is part of God.

Jesus Christ existing before anything was created, figure it out. It was with him, that all things were created.

I'm done talking with the "Word" which was with God in the beginning, the "Word" which was God. But it doesn't prove that Jesus Christ is part of one God.

Anyway, you have not answered my question. So please be aware.

What is your question?

Yes im sure you are done talking about the word, you gave a less than satisfactory answer. As it didnt explain why it was created by the word.
You also didnt address the statement about Jesus being with God in heaven and knowing the glory before everything was created or how he descended from heaven.

"Ill be waiting, so please be aware"

🙄 You did not answer my question.

Where in the Bible can we read that God is made up of these three: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? CAn you quote even one passage from the Bible saying that Jesus Christ is part of God.

If it is Biblical to say that these three are parts of one God, then can you please tell me why would Jesus Christ Himself proclaim that the Father is the only true God if He is part of that one true God? [with Biblical support please 🙄 ]

John 17:1-3
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: " Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
"as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

If it is sound Biblical that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are parts of one God... the Bible will surely say so. Jesus Christ will surely tell us so. Right?

Originally posted by clickclick
Live ive previously mentioned, its more complex than you can understand. No big deal I guess but if you think God is that simple, you are wrong. What is the Holy spirit to God? What is Jesus to God? God does what he wants, Jesus obeys.

Jesus is the Lord, he is not another God and he wasnt just a man.

You didnt even address my post either. It states that jesus is gaining wisdom and yet it states that he knows all things.

As what I have quoted from the Bible: everything should be known about God is plain to them (to us) ... because God has made it plain to them (to us). 🙂

Everything God wanted us to know about Him is written in the Bible. ✅ I cannot go beyond what is written in the Bible. If it says that the Father is the only true God, so be it. If it says that God is not a man, so be it. If it says that Jesus Christ, the Son, is a man, so be it. If it says that man is not God, so be it... etc. 🙂

I didn't say Jesus is just a man. 🙄

I said, Jesus is a man. 🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
Obviously he is saying he is part of God, try as you may to talk around it. In what I quoted, he was certainly not claiming to be completely independent of.

Like ive stated numerous times now, I dont claim that he is the father but he is part of God.

Jesus Christ existing before anything was created, figure it out. It was with him, that all things were created.

by Jury
Simple, Jesus is not saying that He is part of God. In fact He proclaimed that He is distinct from God.

Jesus and His Father are one in taking care of the flock. He mentioned it in the preceeding verses. He is not claiming that they (the Father and Him) are one in being God, is He?

He said -- I am the Son of God. If He is part of one God, how could He be a Son of that one God? Do we have two Jesuses? One Jesus who is a part of one God and the other Jesus who is the Son of this God?

🙄

Originally posted by clickclick
What is your question?

Yes im sure you are done talking about the word, you gave a less than satisfactory answer. As it didnt explain why it was created by the word.
You also didnt address the statement about Jesus being with God in heaven and knowing the glory before everything was created or how he descended from heaven.

"Ill be waiting, so please be aware"

I didn't say that Jesus was with God in heaven before God created everything. Since the Bible has no mention of Jesus Christ Himself was with God in the beginning when God created everything, then I'm not saying it. 🙂

What with God in the beginning was the Word or Logos or Verbo... not Jesus Christ Himself.

If only the Bible says that Jesus Christ was with God in the beginning, then I'm on it. But the Bible did not mention that Jesus Christ Himself existed before He was born.

🙂

Again, you did not answer my question.

Originally posted by clickclick
You didnt even address my post either. It states that jesus is gaining wisdom and yet it states that he knows all things.

”Heaven and earth will pass away,
but my words will never pass away.
“No one knows about the day or hour,
not even the angels in heaven,
nor the Son, but only the Father.”
Mark 13:30-32

Clearly, Christ is saying He is not omniscient. Unlike God, Christ does not know the exact day and the hour of His Second Coming. If God knows all things and Jesus is part of God, Jesus Christ Himself must know what God can know - a clear and gross inconsistency with the alleged belief of the Son as part of one God.

The verse clearly points to the supremacy of the Father as the Omniscient and the only true God since He alone knows the day and the hour of His Son’s coming.

🙂

By the way,
Why you skipped this one? 🙄

Originally posted by Jury

You believe that the Father is the true God.
You said that Jesus Christ is not exactly God.
And you didn't say that the Holy Spirit is God.

Now, you are saying that the concept of the Trinity is in the Bible. You know what the concept of Trinity is?

...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity is Unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost...
..Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.

Athanasian Creed
McClintock and Strong encyclopedia

🙄

My suggestion, roll eyes (sarcastic) read it again. It's the Bible. smile

I didn't say that Jesus was with God in heaven before God created everything. Since the Bible has no mention of Jesus Christ Himself was with God in the beginning when God created everything, then I'm not saying it. smile

What with God in the beginning was the Word or Logos or Verbo... not Jesus Christ Himself.

If only the Bible says that Jesus Christ was with God in the beginning, then I'm on it. But the Bible did not mention that Jesus Christ Himself existed before He was born.

smile

Again, you did not answer my question.

For one, I did answer your question but I will do it yet again. Please do not be in denial now as you were then.

Secondly not only does it say that the word was with God before creation but also that it was BY the word that everything was created.

Jesus says that he was with God before the world was.

John 17: 5 says "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Again, more biblical scriptures telling us that Jesus was with God before the world was.

Jesus Christ did not exist in the flesh before he was born into it but the diving being most certainly did.

IF you want to keep neglecting the truths that I have shown you, then that is your problem.

Here is your definition for logos

Logos:

Christianity. In Saint John's Gospel, especially in the prologue (1:1-14), the creative word of God, which is itself God and incarnate in Jesus. Also called Word.

the divine word of God; the second person in the Trinity (incarnate in Jesus) [syn: Son, Word, Logos]

John 1: 9-12

The True light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

John 1: 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the one and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”

The father, son and the holy spirit appear numerous times together in the New Testament.

There is but one God but God is more complex than you can understand.

John 17:1-3
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: " Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
"as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

You really believe that this is supporting what you are saying?

Anyway, I understand, if your statements are contradicting.

You dont seem to understand much of anything and instead spend most of your time quoting things that other people have said. I question what it is YOU actually know, certainly not this.

Yes, Jesus can know all things but consider this passage saying He Himself proclaimed He doesn't know all things.

”Heaven and earth will pass away,
but my words will never pass away.
“No one knows about the day or hour,
not even the angels in heaven,
nor the Son, but only the Father.”
Mark 13:30-32

Clearly, Christ is saying He is not omniscient. Unlike God, Christ does not know the exact day and the hour of His Second Coming. If God knows all things and Jesus is part of God, Jesus Christ Himself must know what God can know - a clear and gross inconsistency with the alleged belief of the Son as part of one God.

The verse clearly points to the supremacy of the Father as the Omniscient and the only true God since He alone knows the day and the hour of His Son’s coming.

Your position condradicts itself. Jesus can know all things but he cant? You have no clue what you are saying. I already pointed out where it said Jesus was growing in wisdom but later said that Lord, you knowest all things. This is because in the Flesh, he was still growing.

Originally posted by clickclick
For one, I did answer your question but I will do it yet again. Please do not be in denial now as you were then.

Secondly not only does it say that the word was with God before creation but also that it was BY the word that everything was created.

Jesus says that he was with God before the world was.

John 17: 5 says "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Again, more biblical scriptures telling us that Jesus was with God before the world was.

Jesus Christ did not exist in the flesh before he was born into it but the diving being most certainly did.

IF you want to keep neglecting the truths that I have shown you, then that is your problem.

But, still, you didn't answer my question in this post.

🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
Here is your definition for logos

Logos:

Christianity. In Saint John's Gospel, especially in the prologue (1:1-14), the creative word of God, which is itself God and incarnate in Jesus. Also called Word.

the divine word of God; the second person in the Trinity (incarnate in Jesus) [syn: Son, Word, Logos]

John 1: 9-12

The True light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

John 1: 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the one and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”

The father, son and the holy spirit appear numerous times together in the New Testament.

There is but one God but God is more complex than you can understand.

Again, I have responded to this similar post. Read my previous post and learn. 🙂

Still you did not answer my question.

🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
You really believe that this is supporting what you are saying?

Definitely not the Son, and not the Holy Spirit...
Not the Three-in-one.

Originally posted by clickclick
You dont seem to understand much of anything and instead spend most of your time quoting things that other people have said. I question what it is YOU actually know, certainly not this.

Ex. You argue within this discussion because you believe that Jesus Christ is part of one God, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. But you said earlier that Jesus is not exactly God (a statement of being not sure). It also appears that you agree that the Trinity doctrine, though the word is not mentioned in the Bible, is also a concept found in the Bible. But the Trinity, in its primary sense, declares that Jesus is God - the sense that you do not basically believe.

For the sake of the argument, you need to be consistent with your views, not with obvious contradictory statements.

🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
Your position condradicts itself. Jesus can know all things but he cant? You have no clue what you are saying. I already pointed out where it said Jesus was growing in wisdom but later said that Lord, you knowest all things. This is because in the Flesh, he was still growing.

Jesus can know all things in the sense that the Father, the only true God, can give Him all the wisdom and therefore can know all things. It is also the same as the Father can give Him all the authorities in heaven and in earth to fulfill God's will. That is very basic Biblical sense.

But the truth remains that Jesus is different from God. According to Him, No one knows when His Second Coming will be, only the Father. The truth therefore remains that Jesus is not God. Now, how can you say that He is part of that one true God when He is not God?

Here's the Logic:
Statement 1: When I say all numbers from 1 to 9 should be colored blue.
Statement 2: The number 3 should be colored red.
True: All numbers from 1 to 9 should be colored blue except the number 3.

1 2 [color=red]3 4 5 6 7 8 9[/color]
Do I need to explain it for you? 🙂