Jesus Christ

Originally posted by ushomefree
God came through the channel of a virgin's womb. God (in spirit form) took upon Himself a body. Phillippians 2:5-8 explicitly explains this great theological truth. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who. being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputationn, and took upon Him the form of a servent, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

The fact that the verse clearly states that He is “in the form of God” and “equal with God” is commonly considered as a proof that Christ is God. But a closer inquiry reveals that the “form of God” spoken of in this verse could not have referred to God’s nature, for the simple biblical reason that God who is a spirit does not have the physical form that Christ has. Apostles spoke of Christ’s being in the form of God and of His “equality” with God because of the qualities that were given to Christ by God. Christ knew only too well that those divine qualities were only given to Him by God and that He will eventually subject Himself to God so that God who put everything under Christ may be all in all. This is written in:

“For he ‘has put everything under his feet’.
Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him,
it is clear that this does not include God himself,
who put everything under Christ.
When he has done this, then the Son himself
will be made subject to him who put everything under him,
so that God may be all in all.”
Corinthians 15:27-28

This verse is so clear that it is indeed puzzling how anybody could fail to understand it. The verse states unequivocally that Christ will be made subject to God. Can the true God be subject to another God? No, He cannot. The true God is Almighty, all-powerful, and subject to no one, whereas the Son clearly subjects Himself to Someone. The Son, Jesus Christ, is clearly distinguished from God. They can never be one in being God since these two are two different persons - not one. Only one is the God who gave Christ His authority and has the power to command and send Christ and the Holy Spirit, and that one true God is the Father.

Regarding to God-given qualities to Christ, the Bible has this to say:

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the God head bodily.
Col. 2:9

"Godhead" refers to the quality or attributes of God. God gave those qualities of God that dwell in Christ to Him. Jesus forgives our sins... because God made Him to do so.

Then Jesus came to them and said,
'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me'.
Mt. 28:18

Which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church.
Eph. 1:20-22

The numerous attributes that Christ possesses, all of which came from God, have led many to believe that Christ Himself is God. Jesus Christ remains different from God because all those attributes of God are God's inherently, while all those that are in Christ were just given to Him.

And, above all, the fact that God has attributes not found in Christ such as being immortal, all-knowing, all-powerful, untiring and never weary, prove that Christ is different from God and, hence, not God.

🙂

The alleged meeting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in ages past as what you've narrated is obviously not found in the Bible.

I'm familiar with that theory. It's just that I'm not that sure who made the theory. But I'm sure it's nowhere to be found in the Bible.

By ushomefree
"Animal blood will be only a temporary solution because it cannot take away sin, only cover it. Man's blood is tainted through Adam's sin. Therefore, only one option or course of action is possible. One of the three of us will have to go to earth and take flesh as a covering. This will be necessary because flesh contains blood and the One chosen will have to shed that blood to take away the sins of the human race which animal sacrifices only covered!

🙂

CHRONICLES
Common Christianity... moved in a much simpler range of the thought. Profoundly loyal to Christ, it conceived of Him primarily as the divine revealer of the knowledge of the true God, and the proclaimer of a 'new law' of simple, lofty, and strenuous morality. This is the attitude of the so-called 'Apostolic Fathers', with the exception of Ignatius...

Williston Walker
A History of the Christian Church
p.37

1. Yes. And being a Spirit, God has no physical form - no bones, no flesh.

2. And what is He? a semi-God? a tri-God? According to whom? According to yourself? smile

Here, according to the Bible:

There is only one God.
And of course, this God is the only true God.
This God is called as YHWH, and by Christ as "Father".
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
This God is His Father.
So, the Son is definitely not the Father.
The Son is a Man.
God is God and not Man. And doesn't want to become one.
A man is not God, and can never be one.
But according to the Son Himself: The Father is the only true God.

Therefore this one and only true God is the Father... definitiely not the Son.

If you find it hard to understand with reason and logic... Read the Bible, you can find them there.

Yes, there is only one God. The son was the Word in the flesh, this is made clear in the bible. It is also made clear that the word was with god at the begining, the word is god. Ive never stated that Jesus was God, he is part of God though.

I mentioned early that the holy spirit is also part of god (As is the word) though you didnt address that..... I suppose youd probably come back telling me that there is only one god. Who is disputing that? Jesus isnt the father, nor is he the holy spirit, nor is the holy spirit the father. They are all part of God though. If you find it hard to understand, I suggest you read the Bible.

If you are saying that Jesus Christ is not God. Since the only true God is the Father. Then, we don't have problem with that. 🙂

Accepting that Jesus is a part of God, and so as the Holy Spirit... does this make them God? Certainly not. Because it would result into an inconsistency in the Biblical proclamation of Jesus Christ Himself that the only true God is the Father. Aside from Him, no one else.

🙂

Accepting that Jesus is a part of God, and so as the Holy Spirit... does this make them God? Certainly not. Because it would result into an inconsistency in the Biblical proclamation of Jesus Christ Himself that the only true God is the Father. Aside from Him, no one else.

Did I say they were the Father or did I say they were part of God?

Okay. You said...

Jesus is part of God, he came in the flesh, he was the word.

Before Jesus death, some could speak directly to God but they were also responsible for their sins. They had to sacrifice.

After Jesus died for man's sins (Jesus was the word before he came in the flesh) then he became the intermediate. Jesus is not exactly God, he is part of God, as is the Holy spirt.

I didn't say you say they were the Father. 🙂

Again, if you believe that Jesus is not exactly God, then we don't have problem... because Jesus Christ is not the God. Now, I say that Jesus is not the Father of course, because He is the Son. I know you agree with it. Since the Father is the only true God and Jesus Christ is not the Father, definitely Jesus Christ is not God.

Because when we say that the Father is God and Jesus Christ is also God, and the Father is not the Son, then we will have two Gods since these two persons are distinct from each other and two different persons, not one.

I know that Jesus was the "Word" mentioned from the Bible. But in the passage itself: "In the beginning was the Word (Logos, Verbo), and the Word was with God, and the word was God (Gk. theos)". [John 1:1], it means that before everything was created, God has already a plan concerning Jesus Christ. It is not the same as saying that Jesus Christ Himself already existed with form - whether a spirit or a human being - the Bible did not mention about it.

1. a word, not in the grammatical sense of a mere name ... but a word as embodying a conception or idea.
A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, pp. 270-271

1,1: ... St. John employs the term Word. It is so used only by St. John ... and designates the Son as a kind of intellectual emanation from the Father.
Douay Version

Clearly, what was with God in the beginning was His concept or plan or idea (logos) about the Christ who would be coming into the world. The term "logos" does not refer to someone who was co-existing with God in the beginning.

The Word or "logos" is not another God but refers to the idea about Christ, which was "with God" or in God's mind in the beginning.

Thus, the clause, the "logos" was with God, indicates that the "logos" is different or distinguished from God. This position does not contradict the biblical doctrine on the absolute oneness of God. On the other hand, if we were to accept the position that the "logos" is a being who, although is distinguished from God, is also God, we would face the prospect of accepting an unbiblical position that there are two Gods.

Now, what does it mean that the "logos" was "with God"? About what was this concept or idea that intellectually emanated from Him?

I Peter 1:20 has the answer:

"For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you."

God has foreknown Christ before the foundation of the world. To foreknow means to know something before it happens: to have knowledge or awareness that something is going to happen. The Greek word used in this verse is "proginosko" which is defined in Perschbacher's The New Analytical Greek Lexicon as "to determine on beforehand, to foreordain." (p.345)

Now, when did Christ, who was a plan or word in the beginning, come into existence? -- When he was born of a woman. The Bible says:

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law."
Galatians 4:4

Christ existed only when He was born. He had no prior existence. In the beginning, it was not Christ Himself who was with God; it was the concept or idea (logos) that was in the mind of God, for God had destined Christ to play an integral part in His master plan of salvation (Ephesians 3:20-21). 🙂

The word "God" (in Greek, theos) in the third clause of John 1:1 is not a noun but an adjective. And this is attested to by Greek grammarians, such as R.H. Strachan. In his book The Fourth Gospel: It's Significance and Environment, he explains:

The closing words of v.I should be translated, "the Logos was divine". Here the word "theos" has no article, thus giving it the significance of an adjective." (p.99)

William Barclay, another Greek grammarian, agrees with Strachan in classifying the term "theos" in the third clause of John 1:1 as an adjective.

Finally John says that the word was God. This is a difficult saying for us to understand, and it is difficult because Greek, in which John wrote, had a different way of saying things from the way in which English speaks. When Greek uses a noun it almost always uses the definite article with it. The Greek for God is "theos" and the definite article is "ho". When Greek speaks about God it does not simply say "theos"; it says "ho theos". Now when Greek does not use the definite article with a noun that noun becomes much more like an adjective. John did not say that the word was "ho theos"; that would have been to say that the word was identical with God. He said that the word was "theos" - without the article - which means that the word was, we might say, of the very same character and quality and essence and being as God. (p.39)

Even the Bible translators agree that the term "theos" in the third clause of John 1:1 is an adjective. Here's one of the versions:

The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine (Moffatt's Translation)

What does it mean that the "logos" was divine? It means that the word of God is with power (Like 1:37) for the true God who has spoken the word is powerful (Genesis 35:11). Since God is Almighty, He alone has the ability to plan something and the power to bring it to completion as He testified in Isaiah 46:11,

Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass, I have planned it surely I will do it.

God's plan of bringing His Son into the world was fulfilled when Jesus was born of His mother Mary. His birth is the fulfillment of what John wrote that "the Word was made flesh" (John 1:14).

Contrary to what some have postulated that Christ took a different form, i.e., from being God into being human, Christ never transformed Himself from being a pure spirit into an infant. He was conceived in Mary's womb through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear in its teaching that God does not change (Malachi 3:6) even a shadow of turning (James 1:17).

🙂

Now, this is what I am trying to say clickclic:

Let's just say that Christ is the part of God, and so as the Holy Spirit. Still, this doesn't make Him God, because it will contradict the idea of the Bible that the Father is the only true God. Yes. I know you agree that Jesus is not God. But you used "not exactly", which seems that you are not that sure. But no big deal really, since we both agree that Jesus Christ is not God.. as the Bible also agreed.

That is, when you say that Jesus is the part of God and that makes Him God and yet you still believe that Jesus Christ is not exactly God, then you contradict yourself.

Now, these three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are existing as three distinct "persons"... not as one God. If these three make up one God, then, why would Jesus proclaim that the Father is the only true God?

Jn 17:1-3, (NIV)
1 After Jesus said this, he looked towards heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

🙂

CHRONICLES

...even the Didache, or 'Teaching of the Twelve Apostles', the oldest literary monument of Christian antiquity ourside of the New Testament canon... contains no formal profession of faith in the Divinity of Jesus Christ...

Rt. Rev. Msgr. Joseph Pohle
The Divine Trinity

Let's just say that Christ is the part of God, and so as the Holy Spirit. Still, this doesn't make Him God, because it will contradict the idea of the Bible that the Father is the only true God. Yes. I know you agree that Jesus is not God. But you used "not exactly", which seems that you are not that sure. But no big deal really, since we both agree that Jesus Christ is not God.. as the Bible also agreed.

The holy spirit has always been with God as has the word. It states that everything that was created was by the word, which is not simply refering to a concept for what would later happen. When the word became flesh, it then was then in human form, it was Jesus Christ.

I didnt say they he is not exactly because im not sure, I said hes not exactly because while he isnt God he is part of him.

Do you know what the Holy spirit is ? It is of which we were created in likeness to. For instance, God would never let it be acceptable for people to pray to Angels or anything else but to him. It is through jesus that we pray to him, Jesus is not simply independent from God. Something independent would be like an angel and God would not accept that.

Okay, you said that "Jesus Christ is not exactly God"... So what is He if He is not exactly God? That's what I asked you before. Right?

That's why I presumed that you believe that Jesus is not God by saying "He is not exactly God" because true Christians know who the true God is.

I am not arguing with the "Word" actually. I know that the "Word" became flesh. This "Word" was in the beginning, and this "Word" was with God... and this "Word" was God. I have explained my part - fully supported by the Bible itself and the Greek grammarians themselves.

"The Word became flesh" actually means that the plan of God concerning Christ has been fulfilled. Meaning, by the time Jesus Christ was born, that is the time the "Word" became "flesh". It is not the same as saying that the "Word" is Jesus Christ Himself who became "flesh" in later times. The Bible actually didn't presented the idea that Jesus Christ was in other form before He became flesh. Or Jesus was a spirit before along with God and later became a human being (that is, transforming Himself from a pure spirit into an infant, or an embryo in Mary's womb). The "Word" existed in the beginning with God... but Jesus Christ was not there before He was born. The "Word" is Christ - the "Word" is about Christ - God had the plan to have Jesus Christ in later times in order to save humankind.

PS. I don't have problem with the Holy Spirit, anyway. And praying to, and worshiping Jesus is part of God's will. This is one of His commandment for His will to be fulfilled. I hope you knew what really God's greatest will is.

🙂

The word becoming flesh was a plan yes. However, you are still missing what im saying. Would you next tell me that the holy spirit is a plan?

Look, if the Holy spirit is part of God, then Christ can (and is) aswell.

God is, the father, the son, the holy spirit. They are all part of God. Christ was created to have a human nature but that doesnt change the divine aspect of God.

What do you think it was that Moses saw, just curious?

Originally posted by clickclick
The word becoming flesh was a plan yes. However, you are still missing what im saying. Would you next tell me that the holy spirit is a plan?

But surely, the Holy Spirit is not the God Himself. The Bible has no proclamation regarding such thing.

However, the role of the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and from Jesus Christ.

But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit,
whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you
of everything I have said to you.
Jn 14:26

Originally posted by clickclick
Look, if the Holy spirit is part of God, then Christ can (and is) aswell.

Let me emphasize again that the Father is different from the Son, as the Holy Spirit. These three are distinct from one another.

Now when the Bible says, or Jesus Christ Himself says that the Father is the only true God... then so be it. The Father is the only true God. Why not admit this Biblical truth? Why should we still insist that the Son and the Holy Spirit are also parts of one God. Actually, the Bible has no mention of it - the three in one God? - Never. If we insist that these three are parts of one God, then we would contradict what Jesus Christ proclaimed that the Father is the only true God.

We should also remember that God can never have different forms. He can never change Himself from a pure Spirit into a human flesh. I'm saying this not because God cannot do it. Of course He can since He is the most powerful. It is because God will not allow it to happen.... because He doesn't want to go against His own words and own proclamation that He is God, and not man.

I will not execute the fierceness of My anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim. For I am God, and not man, the Holy One in your midst; and I will not come with terror.
Hosea 11:9

🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
God is, the father, the son, the holy spirit. They are all part of God. Christ was created to have a human nature but that doesnt change the divine aspect of God.

Where in the Bible can we read that God is made up of these three: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

If it is Biblical to say that these three are parts of one God, then can you please tell me why would Jesus Christ Himself proclaim that the Father is the only true God, with Biblical support?

John 17:1-3
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: " Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
"as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

If it is sound Biblical that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are parts of one God... the Bible will surely say so. Jesus Christ will surely tell us so.

🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
What do you think it was that Moses saw, just curious?

The event such as God appearing to these people seems that they saw God in the flesh, even though it is never mentioned.

However, the true God is “invisible”, which means, as clarified by Christ Himself that God cannot be seen in His form (John 5:37, I Timothy 1:17)

The way God manifests Himself to man is by means of His power through the things that He made and He can make.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities –
his eternal power and divine nature –
Have been clearly seen, being understood
From what has been made,
So that men are without excuse.
Romans 1:20, NIV

And by this truth, I can therefore say - as a Christian, "I saw God. And I can see Him everyday of my life."

🙂

I respect your own view on God. But with due respect, I respect more the Biblical truth.

🙂

CHRONICLES
The very fact that as late as the fourth century there were those within Christianity who, despite their acceptance of the Epistles of Paul and the Gospel of John, still argued against the divinity of the pre-existent Christ shows that there was evidence of a belief on the part of Paul and John that the pre-existent Christ was God in the literal sense of the term.

Harry Austin Wolfson
The Philosophy of the Church Fathers
vol. I, 2nd ed., pp. 306-307

🙂

But surely, the Holy Spirit is not the God Himself. The Bible has no proclamation regarding such thing.

However, the role of the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and from Jesus Christ.

Again, I'm still consistent with the Biblical truth that the only true God is the Father. By this truth, we cannot think of an idea that Jesus Christ, who is the Son, and the Holy Spirit are also Gods... or even think that these three are parts of one God.

I didnt say the Holy spirit was God, so please stop wasting time arguing against stuff I didnt say. I said it was part of God, it is of which man was made in likeness to.

Yes, the father, the son, the holy spirit are three different manifestations.

I didnt suggest three seperate gods, as to being a par of, I completely disagree.

Jesus has a human and divine nature. That is why he is the word that became flesh.

Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Luke 2: 52 says, "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."

John 21:17 says, "17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things ; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. "

John 10 :

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 20: 28 says, And " Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

John 17: 5 says "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

As I keep telling you, The word was with God before. The word is not a plan. Later on the word became flesh (however it still had a divine nature) and Jesus Christ (flesh) was a man.

There is one GOD but God is more complex than you understand.

The concept of the Trinity is in the bible even though the word Trinity is not used.

John 6:38 says, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me"

The father sends the son and the son and the father send the holy spirit.

Originally posted by clickclick
I didnt say the Holy spirit was God, so please stop wasting time arguing against stuff I didnt say. I said it was part of God, it is of which man was made in likeness to.

Yes, the father, the son, the holy spirit are three different manifestations.

I didnt suggest three seperate gods, as to being a par of, I completely disagree.

And please, be aware... you did not answer my question.

🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Luke 2: 52 says, "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."

John 21:17 says, "17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things ; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. "

Considering that Jesus is part of God, who would be the Mediator between God and men? If He is indeed part of one God, do you think there is still a need for a Mediator. Think about it. Do we have two Jesuses? The Jesus who is a part of God and the other Jesus who is the Mediator between this one God and men? Where is your logic? 🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
John 10 :

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus and His Father are one in taking care of the flock. He mentioned it in the preceeding verses. He is not claiming that they (the Father and Him) are one in being God, is He?

He said -- I am the Son of God. If He is part of one God, how could He be a Son of that one God? Do we have two Jesuses? One Jesus who is a part of one God and the other Jesus who is the Son of this God? 🙂

Originally posted by clickclick
John 20: 28 says, And " Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

The complete story of Thomas could be found in the gospels according to Mark, Luke, and John. The question was not whether Christ was God or man, or Christ was part of one God, but whether he was resurrected from the dead or not. In Mark16:9-14, we read that Jesus appeared first to Mary Magdalene and to two others who reported that Christ was alive. This was met with disbelief by Christ’s disciples. Thus, when Jesus appeared to the Eleven, He rebuked them for their lack of faith and for their refusal to believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

The Apostle John records that Thomas was the most vocal in his disbelief. When Christ appeared before His apostles, Thomas included, He called Thomas to reach out and touch Him. Only then did Thomas believe that what the other disciples said that Christ had risen was true (Jn. 20:24-28). Hence, Thomas expression, “My Lord and my God!” was an “exclamatory” statement, and was the declaration of a man whose previous belief (or disbelief) was totally overturned by what he had just witnessed (e.g.: “Jesus Christ!”, “Oh my God!”, “Oh God, it’s true!”, etc.). 🙂

Moreover, Thomas was not preaching the gospel at that time but was simply voicing out his astonishment. This confirmed not that Jesus Christ was God or part of one God but that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.

🙂