Originally posted by clickclick
Because Jesus Christ was the name given when the word became flesh.
Sending Christ to earth was a plan but as ive mentioned previously, the word is still refered to as a HE who did things. Jesus still says that he saw abraham. Before abraham he was. It doesnt make sense if he saw abraham because he was "a plan" before abraham.It also wouldnt make sense when he called himself the alpha and the omega.
Very literal, I know.
Remember, that John the apostle wrote his gospel by the time Christ already existed... So if he really referring to the person of Christ, he would have been using the name 'Christ'... but instead he still preferred to use figuratively the term "Word" or "Logos". There must be a reason why. 🙂
Oops... Did Jesus really say He saw Abraham? I miss that one. 😕
Originally posted by clickclick
Man was made to be above the angels. Is it your contention that therefore God made man in the likeness of something so holy aswell as at the same time something below his next creation?
Originally posted by clickclick
Which is fine but doesnt explain why Christ was saying that he saw Abraham. They asked him how, if he is so young. To which he said, before Abraham, I am (or something to that effect). How did HE see him is the question.
The people asked Him how... yes. But the question at stake is Jesus' authority which the people seemed to be beyond Abraham's authority.
The people He was talking with seemed to understand His word literally... that's why they misunderstood what Christ was trying to say.
52 Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.'
53 "Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.
55 "Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, 'I do not know Him,' I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
See? There's no hint Jesus saying He saw Abraham. 🙂
Originally posted by clickclick
Sorry guy, didnt change anything. I gave you a direct quote from a passage, that states that he was the one and only god, sitting on the fathers right hand.
Okay. I missed that particular post of yours. That's why I asked you where in the Bible does it say that Jesus is the One and Only God... Is it difficult to type it again?.. Or maybe.
So that's it. Jesus Christ for you is not exactly God. 🙂
Jesus Christ for me is not the one true God.
There's nothing in the Bible saying He is the one and only true God.
For according to Jesus it's the Father alone who is the true God.
Jesus is not the Father, therefore He is not the true God.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
🙂
So that's it. Jesus Christ for you is not exactly God.Jesus Christ for me is not the one true God.
There's nothing in the Bible saying He is the one and only true God.
For according to Jesus it's the Father alone who is the true God.
Jesus is not the Father, therefore He is not the true God.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Actually, there is. I told you I posted it in this thread, you can go back and find it just as easily as I can.
Anyway again, Ive never claimed he was the father nor the holy spirit. Only that he is part of God, he is divine. Now, you believe that the word was a plan but not a divine existence in heaven. Now you again asked why he John would refer to him as the word instead of Christ but ive already explained that one several times. The bible has that answer for you. You still havent explained why the word would be called he then and why the word did things. NOw when Jesus says he is the alpha and omega, why didnt he say that it was a plan and not he? You draw conclusions from text that dont state the thing you choose to interpret.
On the note of him saying, before abrahman I am. How does that help if it is God and not he saying that? How does that answer the question about him seeing abraham? It really does not because the question is not whether or not God existed before Abraham.
So you didn't know what is this 'image' common to God, His heavenly creations, and the first man during creation. ... Remember that the Bible never mentioned that man was created in the LITERAL image of God.
What, you think the image was good and goodness? God created all things good and yet it is not said that all things were created in his image.
1. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God can be a man, and a man can be a God.
2. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ Himself existed before He was born.
3. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ was with God in the beginning during the creation.
4. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the true God is made up of the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
5. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one and true God.
6. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the one true God incarnated as a man and became Jesus Christ.
7. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ is both a man and a true God.
8. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Son of God is the true God.
9. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is the true God.
10. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Word was Jesus Christ Himself in the beginning.
11. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ Himself was God in the beginning and later became flesh when He was born of a woman.
12. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the one and only true God is with another God in His right hand.
13. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ Himself saw Abraham.
14. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the true God and Jesus Christ are one and the same person.
15. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ is the One and Only true God.
Proverbs 8 :22-31
The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old. I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there was no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust in the world. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with the delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in the his whole world and delighting in mankind.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
How could he have glory with the father before the world was if he didnt exist?
How could he do those things before the world was?
There is obviously a reason why the word is refered to as a he.
Col 1 :15-20
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in the heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church, he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, abd through him reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his pblood shed on the cross.
This explains why he was by very nature God but humbled himself.
John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; with him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
John 1: 9-12
The True light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
How much clearer can it get? It clearly says that the word had life and that the word was he. Who was the word? The firstborn over all creation.
Rev 11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called the Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Jesus being refered to as the Word.
This explains how it makes sense that Jesus was sent FROM heaven to earth.
John 6:38 says, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me"
John 5: 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling Gos his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Now who exactly was saying that before Abraham am I?
Now who exactly was talking when they said let us make man in OUR image?
Again, you still havent explained why or how God could make man in his image aswell as the angels at the same time.
John 1: 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the one and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
Okay. To clickclick:
Shall we discuss the passages you have cited? Let's begin with the first one. I'll raise some questions relevant to the passages you quoted from the Bible. But let's break it down step by step. I hope you would answer me plainly.
Who is speaking in Proverbs 8:22-31? And what is the relevance of that passage to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning?
🙂
Who is speaking in Proverbs 8:22-31? And what is the relevance of that passage to the claim that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning?
Why would you need ME to tell you when the bible tells us who it is? Answer your own question.
As to the relevance, its quite clear. If you want to "break this down" then DO IT. Simple as that. Ill be waiting. 🙄