Jesus Christ

Originally posted by KPrince
The word "logos" is only found in the book of John.

Some of its English translations are as follows:

account
appearance
book
command
conversation
eloquence
flattery
grievance
heard
instruction
matter
message
ministry
news
proposal
question
reason
reasonable
reply
report
rule
rumor
said
say
saying
sentence
speaker
speaking
speech
stories
story
talk
talking
teaching
testimony
thing
things
this
truths
what
why
word and
words

Indeed, the Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meaning "logos" has. As it is used throughout the Scriptures, "logos" has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought:

1. mind and
2. products of the mind like “reason,” (thus “logic” is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as “word,” “saying,” “command” etc.

🙂

Originally posted by KPrince
I believe there are two Gods. One is the Supreme Father, over all things. The other is the Word, who became flesh as Jesus Christ, and was begotten as the Son of the Father. Neither of the two are false, both are true, but only one is the Supreme God whom is to be worship, and that is the Father. Which is why we pray to the Father, and ask all things in Jesus' Name.

Originally posted by KPrince
Would that mean that Jesus Himself was wrong when He proclaimed that "the Father is the ONLY [b]TRUE GOD"?

No. The Father is the Supreme God, and Jesus is under His authority.[/b]

So how do you comprehend when we say "ONLY TRUE GOD"? Would it still be the same to say "THERE ARE TWO TRUE GODS"?

🙂

Originally posted by KPrince
"even the verses are not saying so." quoted by Jury
The verses seem pretty self-explanatory, show me, in John 1 where you see inconsistencies in my argument of Jesus being the Word.

Let me remind you, the first verse of John 1 runs this way:

"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God."

Prove it that it is the same to say:

"In the beginning was Jesus Christ,
and Jesus Christ was with God,
and Jesus Christ was God."

🙂

Also, show me in the New Testament where Jesus contradicts my argument. That way I can see where you find disagreement.

So, which is which?

[QUOTE=5517438]Originally posted by Jury
Just quote any verse in the Bible which says that [b]"the word [logos] was Jesus Christ HIMSELF who was with God in the beginning and was God who became flesh and lived among us". Come on, show me.

Let me remind you, the first verse of John 1 runs this way:

"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God."

Prove it that it is the same to say:

"In the beginning was Jesus Christ,
and Jesus Christ was with God,
and Jesus Christ was God."

🙂

Ok, just to show you that all the verses are in the same chapter and in order of appearance so that we can get the context of the scriptures,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men." John 1:1-4

Notice verse 4 there, now look at John 1:6-10,
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

John 1:1-4 illustrated that the life of the Word was "the light of men." John, in John1:6-10, came to be a witness to that Light which was the Word.
Now we go to verse 14 of John 1, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
It states that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. John bared witness of the Word who was made flesh, "John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me." John1:15

Now verses 16-17, "And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace." The word "his" in this verse is still referring to the Word, with that in mind notice verse 17, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
Now that links the Word with Jesus, but you could argue that it still proves nothing, so we take another look at John 1:15, "John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."
Now notice verses 29-30 of John 1, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."
We now know that John bared witness of the Word made flesh, and we know that John saw Jesus approaching and said that He [Jesus] was the one of which John was to witness for. Jesus and the Word are the same Being.

Now, verses 1-3 of John 1 speak of the Word creating all things. God creates all things, therefore the Word is a God. But we also see in verses 1-2 of John 1 that "the Word was with God"--that God is God the Father. John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh, but notice this key part in that scripture, "...and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only BEGOTTEN of the Father..."

John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Now to verse 34, "And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God." John had just previously before this verse described how he baptized Jesus Christ. Now verse 18 not only stated that this Son was begotten of God, it also confirms that this Son declared the Father--another God Being! This means that there is a God the Father and the Word/Son/Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Jury

Jesus said : The Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. (John 17)
You said : There are TWO TRUE GODS: the Father and the Son.

So, which is which? [/B]

Now we look at John 17:1-5 where it states "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Now you are right Jury, Jesus did refer to the Father as the only true God, but notice verse 5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." The verse ends with "the glory which I [Jesus] had with thee [the Father] before the world was." Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was? How? Well we already confirmed that the Word is Jesus, and the Word was with God "In the beginning".

Originally posted by KPrince
Ok, just to show you that all the verses are in the same chapter and in order of appearance so that we can get the context of the scriptures,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men." John 1:1-4

Notice verse 4 there, now look at John 1:6-10,

"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."[/quoe]
Ok. I acknowledge that for the same reason. 🙂

[quote]John 1:1-4 illustrated that the life of the Word was "the light of men." John, in John1:6-10, came to be a witness to that Light which was the Word.
Now we go to verse 14 of John 1, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

It states that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. John bared witness of the Word who was made flesh, "John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me." John1:15

Now verses 16-17, "And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace." The word "his" in this verse is still referring to the Word, with that in mind notice verse 17, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

Now that links the Word with Jesus, but you could argue that it still proves nothing, so we take another look at John 1:15, "John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."
Now notice verses 29-30 of John 1, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."

We now know that John bared witness of the Word made flesh, and we know that John saw Jesus approaching and said that He [Jesus] was the one of which John was to witness for.

Jesus and the Word are the same Being.

🙂

So...the Word being referred to as the Son of God and Jesus being referred to as the Son of God is not enough proof for you?

Originally posted by KPrince
Now, verses 1-3 of John 1 speak of the Word creating all things. God creates all things, therefore the Word is a God.

But we also see in verses 1-2 of John 1 that "the Word was with God"--that God is God the Father.

John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh, but notice this key part in that scripture, "...and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only BEGOTTEN of the Father..."

I disagree. For the reason that, the Bible tells us Christians, especially Jesus Christ Himself that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD - the Father. Definitely not the Son, and not the Holy Spirit.

So...the Word being referred to as the Son of God and Jesus being referred to as the Son of God is not enough proof for you?

🙂

Originally posted by Jury
Ooops, nope. John 1:1 does not say that the "Word is a God".

Yes. The word [logos] was with the Father [who alone is God; and aside from Him there is no other]. So, it's wrong to say that the "word" is a God which was with [another] God since it will contradict to the very teaching of the Bible that "there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD" and "aside from Him THERE IS NO OTHER".

Ok, I know what you mean. You mean that the Word "who" was with the Father in the beginning was "a God" who became flesh in the person of Christ and has dwelt among us.

I disagree. For the reason that, the Bible tells us Christians, especially Jesus Christ Himself that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD - the Father. Definitely not the Son, and not the Holy Spirit.

Wait. I'm not done yet.

🙂

Actually, yes it does "and the Word was God." John 1:1

Originally posted by KPrince
John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Now to verse 34, "And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God." John had just previously before this verse described how he baptized Jesus Christ. Now verse 18 not only stated that this Son was begotten of God, it also confirms that this Son declared the Father--another God Being! This means that there is a God the Father and the Word/Son/Jesus Christ.

Yes. There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD - the Father.

And Jesus Christ is the "Son of God" and the "Word of God"... but it is not the same to say that the "word" [logos] which was with God in the beginning is Jesus Christ Himself.

Jesus Christ Himself did not literally and physically exist from the beginning. He started existing when He was born by Mary.

Jesus Christ was not literally born before Abraham.

Jesus Christ did not literally create everything.

Jesus Christ is not the literal firstborn among creations.

Yet, Jesus Christ is said to be "before Abraham" and "the firstborn among all creations" IN THE SENSE that He was FOREKNOWLEDGED [Gk. proginosko] by God before the creation of everything. It is a grammatical fact both in English and Greek that you cannot FOREKNOWLEDGED and PROGINOSKO something which is already existing. Let us not be absurd and self-contradicting.

Actually, yes it does "and the Word was God." John 1:1

John 1:1 says "the Word was God" not [according to you] "the Word was a God". Let us be careful of the differences.

🙂

Originally posted by KPrince
Now you are right Jury, Jesus did refer to the Father as the only true God,

That's why I asked you earlier, which you're not answering: Which is which?

1. The Father is the ONLY true God, or
2. The Son and the Father are BOTH true Gods.

Which modifier do you think is much appropriate? ONLY or BOTH? 🙄

but notice verse 5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." The verse ends with "the glory which I [Jesus] had with thee [the Father] before the world was." Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was? How? Well we already confirmed that the Word is Jesus, and the Word was with God "In the beginning".

🙂

Originally posted by Jury
Thank you. I know I am right. And you also agree that the Father is the ONLY true God. Yet you stressed out earlier that both the Father and the Son are "true Gods".

That's why I asked you earlier, which you're not answering: [b]Which is which?

1. The Father is the ONLY true God, or
2. The Son and the Father are BOTH true Gods.

Which modifier do you think is much appropriate? ONLY or BOTH? 🙄

Don't worry. The Bible has explained that. I'll show you next time. It is about the "FOREKNOWLEDGED [proginosko] of God".

🙂 [/B]

Both. But as I said before, ONE is Supreme, The Father is the Supreme God. Neither one is false. Both are True--Both exist as True Gods, but one is over the other.
"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." Colossians 1:12-17

Who do you think is being referred to in these scriptures? Who is the "dear Son"? Who is stated as the one by whom "were all things created..."? Who is this Being in which "all things were created by him"? Who is this Being that is "before all things?

Originally posted by debbiejo
BTW sonnet I never said the "The Da Vinci Code" was fact....It's a fictional book with some facts thrown in it.

Originally posted by finti
just like the bible then

Originally posted by sonnet
Then I guess the question is do you know what is fact and what is fiction.

...because I do not believe in fairytales.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Throughout history, people have given a variety of answers to the question, "Who is Jesus of Nazereth?" Whatever their answer, no one can escape the fact that Jesus really lived and that His life radically altered human history forever.

The world-renowned historian Jaroslav Pelikan makes this clear: "Regardless of what anyone may personally think or believe about him, Jesus of Nazereth has been the dominant figure in the history of Western culture. If it were possible, with some sort of supermagnet, to pull up out of that history every scrap of metal bearing a trace of his name, how much would be left? It is from his birth that most of the human race dates its calendars, it is by his name that millions curse, and in his name that millions pray."

JESUS WAS A LIAR?

If, when Jesus made His claims, He knew He was not God, then He was lying. But it He was a liar, then He was also a hypocrite, because He told others to be honest, whatever the cost, while He, at the same time, was teaching and living a colossal lie.

More than that, He was a demon, because He deliberately told others to trust Him for the eternal destiny. If He could not back up His claims and knew they were false, then He was unspeakably evil.

Last, He would also be a fool, because it was His claims of deity that lead to His crucifixion.

JESUS WAS A LUNATIC?

If it is inconceivable for Jesus to have been a liar, then could He have thought He was God but have been mistaken? After all, it is possible to be both sincere and wrong.

But we must remember that for someone to think he was God, especially in a culture that was fiercely monotheistic, and then to tell others that their eternal destiny depends on believing in him, was no slight flight of fantasy but the thought of a lunatic in the fullest sense. Was Jesus Christ such a person?

JESUS WAS LORD!

If Jesus of Nazereth is NOT a liar or a lunatic, then He must be Lord.

Other self-proclaimed gods and saviors have come and gone upon history's stage, but Jesus is still here, standing head-and-shoulders above them all.

Who you decide Jesus Christ is must not be an idle intellectual exercise. You cannot put Him on the shelf as a great moral teacher. That is not an option (especially for Christians). He is either a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord. You must make a choice. There needs to be moral honesty in the above consideration of Jesus as either one of the three.

How did they treat liars back in the first century?

Check out: Keener, The IVP Bible Background Comentary: New Testament, (Intervarsity, 1993) and other volume by Ferguson, Everett, Backgrounds of Christianity.

Please everyone, keep the debate in good taste. Thank you.

The false dilemma fallacy occurs when an argument offers a false range of choices and requires that you pick one of them. The range is false because there may be other, unstated choices which would only serve to undermine the original argument. If you concede to pick one of those choices, you accept the premise that those choices are indeed the only ones possible.

Several possibilities are presented as if they are the only ones available. One is preferred and defended strongly while the others are presented as weak and inferior. It' s an attempt to frame a debate as being a choice between three options when, in fact, there are other options available. Perhaps Jesus was simply mistaken or we don’ t have an accurate record of what he truly said — if, indeed, he even existed.