The Holocaust.

As I said much earlier, I do believe that a majority of the German citizens did know that something was going on, beyond labour, in those camps.

However, I'm not sure that the holocaust was "the engine driving it". The engine driving the Third Reich was German nationalism. Not Jewish inferiority. And what drove German superiority? The fact that Germany was in teh middle of a drastic economic depression, and after the Nazis took control of the government, things improved on a huge scale. This is how the Nazi party convinced the German people that they were superior. Not to mention the fact that every nation is capable of considering itself superior, hence the term 'nationalism'.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I agree

You agree? I can't even understand!

Nationalists define individual nations on the basis of certain criteria, which distinguish one nation from another, and also determine who is a member of each nation. These might include a shared language, shared culture, and shared values, but the most important is probably now ethnicity, the membership of an ethnic group. National identity refers both to these defining criteria and to the sense of belonging to that group. Nationalists see membership of nation as exclusive and involuntary, meaning that you can not simply join it like an association.

straight from Wikpedia. So my point was the the Nationalists had created a Dictator to keep that idea pure. Racial cleansing was required to keep Germany united (united we stand divided we fall). They needed a common enemy and a purpose. The holocaust was MUCH MUCH more then labor camps and thats something that needs to be understood to comprehend the totality of this piece.

Originally posted by soleran30
Nationalists define individual nations on the basis of certain criteria, which distinguish one nation from another, and also determine who is a member of each nation. These might include a shared language, shared culture, and shared values, but the most important is probably now ethnicity, the membership of an ethnic group. National identity refers both to these defining criteria and to the sense of belonging to that group. Nationalists see membership of nation as exclusive and involuntary, meaning that you can not simply join it like an association.

straight from Wikpedia. So my point was the the Nationalists had created a Dictator to keep that idea pure. Racial cleansing was required to keep Germany united (united we stand divided we fall). They needed a common enemy and a purpose. The holocaust was MUCH MUCH more then labor camps and thats something that needs to be understood to comprehend the totality of this piece.

See, the only thing I'm understanding is the part you copied and pasted from another site. Which, by the way...is exactly what I said.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
As I said much earlier, I do believe that a majority of the German citizens did know that something was going on, beyond labour, in those camps.

However, I'm not sure that the holocaust was "the engine driving it". The engine driving the Third Reich was German nationalism. Not Jewish inferiority. And what drove German superiority? The fact that Germany was in teh middle of a drastic economic depression, and after the Nazis took control of the government, things improved on a huge scale. This is how the Nazi party convinced the German people that they were superior. Not to mention the fact that every nation is capable of considering itself superior, hence the term 'nationalism'.

As a romany, I would point out it was not just jews they considered inferior, I think many other ethnic groups would agree they were also turned in soap.

Germany pretty much wiped out everone without much discrimination its just that its much more accepted that the Jewish were the main piece......I mean polish, russian, romanian, scandenavian.......I could almost make a bad rap out of all of that.

Romany is Gypsy

For details of the Gypsy holocaust

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/holcaust.htm

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
As a romany, I would point out it was not just jews they considered inferior, I think many other ethnic groups would agree they were also turned in soap.

As a gay man, I'd like to point out it wasn't just the jews they considered inferior, I think many other ethnic groups would agree they were also turned into soap.

Dude, neither of yo are going to tell me anything I don't know....unless you make it up. I've been a student of WWII history for years. But, your above post only proves the point I was making to the other guy.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
As a gay man, I'd like to point out it wasn't just the jews they considered inferior, I think many other ethnic groups would agree they were also turned into soap.

Dude, neither of yo are going to tell me anything I don't know....unless you make it up. I've been a student of WWII history for years. But, your above post only proves the point I was making to the other guy.

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/holcaust.htm

It was Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals that the Nazis made victims of the Holocaust.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
As a gay man, I'd like to point out it wasn't just the jews they considered inferior, I think many other ethnic groups would agree they were also turned into soap.

Dude, neither of yo are going to tell me anything I don't know....unless you make it up. I've been a student of WWII history for years. But, your above post only proves the point I was making to the other guy.

and your post only proves mine you cannot understand what its like for your race to be considered inferior. I respect your sexuality and feel that anyone who picks on you is wrong, but sexuality is really not the same as race.

Originally posted by GCG
It was Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals that the Nazis made victims of the Holocaust.

yes it was and it was also believe it or not Jeohovahs Witnesses, that is not a joke.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
and your post only proves mine you cannot understand what its like for your race to be considered inferior. I respect your sexuality and feel that anyone who picks on you is wrong, but sexuality is really not the same as race.

You are talking out of your ass! I don't know what it's like to be considered inferior? I live in a country TODAY, where I am considered inferior, a freak, an aboration, a second-class citizen. As for crying about someone making soap out of you (which didn't actually happen, they never made soap out of people) I'm not worried about people picking on me. I'm worried about the rights of people in my position. I can deal with people picking on me, but whats going on in this country today is far beyond "picking" on gays.

And before someone makes the accusation that I am comparing teh holocaust to the fight for equal rights in the US, because I'm not.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
You are talking out of your ass! I don't know what it's like to be considered inferior? I live in a country TODAY, where I am considered inferior, a freak, an aboration, a second-class citizen. As for crying about someone making soap out of you (which didn't actually happen, they never made soap out of people) I'm not worried about people picking on me. I'm worried about the rights of people in my position. I can deal with people picking on me, but whats going on in this country today is far beyond "picking" on gays.

And before someone makes the accusation that I am comparing teh holocaust to the fight for equal rights in the US, because I'm not.

OK now you've cleared that up - I gree with most of your post, except I still feel race and sexuality are different, persecution for any reason is wrong however, I am also sorry the US persecutes you for being gay, sadly I see a swing back inthis respect worldwide due to an upsurge in right wing views and its wrong. No I am definately not tlalking out of my arse.

i guess what makes me uncomfortable is the silence in germany over the issue. im not implying that they have a policy of ignorance, but more that
they have a kind of "elephant in the living room" approach to it all. its just too
f***ed to talk about in the open, and thus nobody will. but why? probably out of good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

in the U.S., there is no strict moral code to avoid the topic slavery, nor the genocide of native americans, nor any other 'evil' committed. (i put it in quotes to make bardock happy because im so sick of the 'evil is only subjective, thus doesnt exist" debate). that type of "just dont talk about it" behavior can backfire badly since i think younger generations may interpret such silence as apathy and not a kind of national trauma. i think german people should know that it's not their fault, and the world should know its not their fault, just as i never killed an apache nor owned any slaves. once the accusations stop, germans can stop being so defensively silent about it. once that happens, they can finally loosen up and discuss the happenings of ww2 freely, and then everyone can rest assured that it will never be forgotten.

germans: WE TOLD YOU WE WILL NEVER FORGET DAMNIT!!!!

yes, and i believe you. but you're going to pass away someday and your kids and grandkids will be germany. will they remember?

Originally posted by PVS
i guess what makes me uncomfortable is the silence in germany over the issue. im not implying that they have a policy of ignorance, but more that
they have a kind of "elephant in the living room" approach to it all. its just too
f***ed to talk about in the open, and thus nobody will. but why? probably out of good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

in the U.S., there is no strict moral code to avoid the topic slavery, nor the genocide of native americans, nor any other 'evil' committed. (i put it in quotes to make bardock happy because im so sick of the 'evil is only subjective, thus doesnt exist" debate). that type of "just dont talk about it" behavior can backfire badly since i think younger generations may interpret such silence as apathy and not a kind of national trauma. i think german people should know that it's not their fault, and the world should know its not their fault, just as i never killed an apache nor owned any slaves. once the accusations stop, germans can stop being so defensively silent about it. once that happens, they can finally loosen up and discuss the happenings of ww2 freely, and then everyone can rest assured that it will never be forgotten.

germans: WE TOLD YOU WE WILL NEVER FORGET DAMNIT!!!!

yes, and i believe you. but you're going to pass away someday and your kids and grandkids will be germany. will they remember?

Oh PVS I respect you and all but that is jsut total Bullshit......the way Germany deals with their past is unreasonably greater than any other countries history........we get Taught aboot it in School every year, it is not as taboo as you might think io t is.....you know the Family Guy joke with the german guy that doesn't want Brian to talk aboot the War is funny qand all, but it is rather untrue in germany.....we del with it, we talk aboot it, ...but there are people here, like me for example that think, sure remember is allright but we should be able to stop apologizing one day......

Originally posted by PVS
i guess what makes me uncomfortable is the silence in germany over the issue. im not implying that they have a policy of ignorance, but more that
they have a kind of "elephant in the living room" approach to it all. its just too
f***ed to talk about in the open, and thus nobody will. but why? probably out of good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

in the U.S., there is no strict moral code to avoid the topic slavery, nor the genocide of native americans, nor any other 'evil' committed. (i put it in quotes to make bardock happy because im so sick of the 'evil is only subjective, thus doesnt exist" debate). that type of "just dont talk about it" behavior can backfire badly since i think younger generations may interpret such silence as apathy and not a kind of national trauma. i think german people should know that it's not their fault, and the world should know its not their fault, just as i never killed an apache nor owned any slaves. once the accusations stop, germans can stop being so defensively silent about it. once that happens, they can finally loosen up and discuss the happenings of ww2 freely, and then everyone can rest assured that it will never be forgotten.

germans: WE TOLD YOU WE WILL NEVER FORGET DAMNIT!!!!

yes, and i believe you. but you're going to pass away someday and your kids and grandkids will be germany. will they remember?

A brilliant post which sums up kind of my feelings but much better than I did.

Bardock I apologise to you for going off on a bad one, but, I guess I still feel a lot of anger over what happened and it was kind of like a German saying I can justify it, reaaly you can't.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
A brilliant post which sums up kind of my feelings but much better than I did.

Bardock I apologise to you for going off on a bad one, but, I guess I still feel a lot of anger over what happened and it was kind of like a German saying I can justify it, reaaly you can't.

You don't need to apologise to me the same as I don't need to apologize for you...well..maybe for calling you an idiot, but you probably didn't read that.

And I never said that I can justify it...I said it can be justified...that ias a big, big difference...

Originally posted by Bardock42
You don't need to apologise to me the same as I don't need to apologize for you...well..maybe for calling you an idiot, but you probably didn't read that.

And I never said that I can justify it...I said it can be justified...that ias a big, big difference...

The only people who could justify it are idiots - I think we're cool with each other anyway.