The Holocaust.

Originally posted by PVS
bardock, you cant take a farout philisophical concept like "there is no true evil" and the fact that the U.S. dragged their asses to lighten the guilt of nazi germany. "there is no spoon" and "they suck too" doesnt cut it here.

its true completely true and my point.

originally posted by Whirlysplatt
the same is happening in Serbia now

No they were not, thats why the rest of the world united and beat them down, because what they were doing was inhuman,

Exactly... They united against the germans not because the germans were evil but because they didn't do what the rest wanted them to do and they became a danger to the rest of the world. Thats why they were destroyed. The allies justified it to their people by telling them the Nazi's were evil.

The allies helped out the Soviet Union when it was having a hard time too, they justified that by saying it was necessary. They helped one evil to stop another. Everybody does evil things, its just that the victor writes our history and they determine how evil it really was. Because Hitler lost what he did became very evil.

No, he was very evil in any case. The Soviet Union won, and has also been exposed as very evil.

Whilst it is true that moral grounds of Germany's internal policies alone were not the main cause for war, the rest of your point does not track out logically, Fishy.

The allies helped out the Soviet Union when it was having a hard time too, they justified that by saying it was necessary

Exactly... They united against the germans not because the germans were evil

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, he was very evil in any case. The Soviet Union won, and has also been exposed as very evil.

Whilst it is true that moral grounds of Germany's internal policies alone were not the main cause for war, the rest of your point does not track out logically, Fishy.

He was not.....he maybe was evil by our standards today, by the US standards back then, by your standards or mine...but he wasn't just evil.....

Neither was th3e Soviet Union, it was just considered an evil by the Western world...although a lesser evil than Hitler.....but it wasn't just evil...that can not be.....

I think what Ush is saying, is that we can muddy the waters all we want with symantics, but bottom line it was evil. Since we all(mostly) live in the modern western world, we can call a spade a spade.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I think what Ush is saying, is that we can muddy the waters all we want with symantics, but bottom line it was evil. Since we all(mostly) live in the modern western world, we can call a spade a spade.

It was evil, but why was it evil? Because the one's that considered it evil won the war. Because of that something like the holocaust becomes evil.

Originally posted by Fishy
It was evil, but why was it evil? Because the one's that considered it evil won the war. Because of that something like the holocaust becomes evil.

Because killing a group of people out of pure hate and detest for them is evil to anyone with a valid moral view.

Originally posted by Fishy
It was evil, but why was it evil? Because the one's that considered it evil won the war. Because of that something like the holocaust becomes evil.

You're asking the wrong guy. I may have spoken out of turn in assuming I understood what Ush was saying. But, if I was right, then I take it to mean that subjective morality is a luxury that doesn't apply to the systematic extermination of an entire religion/race.

And then consider those German citizens that DID help the jews. Why would they do that? Because even by their standards, as members of the very society that committed these act, it was wrong.

Now, I stated earlier that German citizens who fein ignorance of teh events taking place right under their noses were full of shit. I still maintain that belief. But, there was a concerted effort by the German high command to keep these events and descisions secret. So, why all the effort if everyone would have gone along with it? Because they knew, that despite their belief that the jews deserved such treatment, it was wrong. They also wanted there to be no evidence that the outside world could hold against them.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
You're asking the wrong guy. I may have spoken out of turn in assuming I understood what Ush was saying. But, if I was right, then I take it to mean that subjective morality is a luxury that doesn't apply to the systematic extermination of an entire religion/race.

And then consider those German citizens that DID help the jews. Why would they do that? Because even by their standards, as members of the very society that committed these act, it was wrong.

Now, I stated earlier that German citizens who fein ignorance of teh events taking place right under their noses were full of shit. I still maintain that belief. But, there was a concerted effort by the German high command to keep these events and descisions secret. So, why all the effort if everyone would have gone along with it? Because they knew, that despite their belief that the jews deserved such treatment, it was wrong. They also wanted there to be no evidence that the outside world could hold against them.

Well a lot of germans really didn't know. But just look at the neo nazi's of the day. They still refuse to acccept the holocaust. So yeah I guess that was considered wrong by most. But still there were those that didn't. Those people accepted it. They justified it.

Point still stands holocaust could be justified, although perhaps it was to hard to do for all, or even impossible. Whatever the case some people justified it for themselves. Meaning that even the mass murder of people could be justified.

And it has been done before you know, just think of the Romans.. God knows how many people wanted to kill them all. And some even tried. The murder of an entire culture or race can be justified as easy as the destruction of a country as long as one is willing to accept it.

Originally posted by finti
Serbia??????????? You thinking about the former Yugoslav countries that borders to Serbia???

and "the world" didnt unite against Nazi Germany because of their action toward jews and other ethnicity and minority groups, originally they united agaisnt them due to Germany "expansion" by invading and occupying sovereign country's

actually the whole premise of what germany stood for was the truest evil and the world did unite against it after it went into poland, the problems regarding its aryan ideals were however part of the disgust the world shared at its behaviour.

Examples of hilarious superior rhetoric are the munich Olympics and the brown bomber vs Schmelling who was actually a damn good guy, but the germans were using him, and yes I meant the minority groups the serbs attacked my cousin was part of the UN response, in the cold stream guards.

As for the rest of the world uniting most of it had fallen and for a while Britain stood alone. Don't forget the Russians started out with a pact with the Nazi's. Churchill wanted to A bomb innocent Russians after the war to stop the spread of communism. Equally evil.

🙂

Neo Nazis still don't acknowledge the holocaust is as bad as me saying the civil war didn't have a thing to do with slavery lol what a good one! Just because people choose ignorance doesn't excuse their actions.

Originally posted by soleran30
Neo Nazis still don't acknowledge the holocaust is as bad as me saying the civil war didn't have a thing to do with slavery lol what a good one! Just because people choose ignorance doesn't excuse their actions.

So true, if you ever visit Normandy something I did with a group of children about 7 years ago. I was one of the adults taking them. Take a visit to the German cemetary not just the various allied ones. Read the rememberance book, you get every loony neo nazi organisation in Europe writing vile filth in it including the likes of combat 18.

Yeah I lived in Northern VA/DC for about 12 years went to college there went to the holocaust museum.....ugh disturbing medical experiments etc etc

Looking at the medical experiments they did to induce hypothermia in the various victims and taking notes and drawing blood work. No it was blatant and the people that refuse to acknowledge this need special treatment.......

So before we can excuse anyone of their "war crimes" step back acknowledge ALL the things done and you would realize that perhaps evil isn't the correct word however WRONG doings on a global scale would fit well.

And you know they broke the Gold teeth out the mouths of their victims....made criminals the Guards of each house.....murdered political enemies and sent their families that they commited suicide....killed minors for not agreeing with them and all the other cruel stuff....but guess what ...ITS NOT THE ****ING POINT OF THIS ****ING THREAD.....if you want to whine aboot it...please open another one...this thread has a whole different question to it...and if you can't stay on topic why don't you jsut leave....please....

Originally posted by soleran30
Yeah I lived in Northern VA/DC for about 12 years went to college there went to the holocaust museum.....ugh disturbing medical experiments etc etc

Looking at the medical experiments they did to induce hypothermia in the various victims and taking notes and drawing blood work. No it was blatant and the people that refuse to acknowledge this need special treatment.......

So before we can excuse anyone of their "war crimes" step back acknowledge ALL the things done and you would realize that perhaps evil isn't the correct word however WRONG doings on a global scale would fit well.

I'm going to disagree, I feel it was evil pure and simple. However I feel its time to forgive, its 60 years ago..... but not forget the lessons that should be learnt🙂

Originally posted by Fishy
Well a lot of germans really didn't know. But just look at the neo nazi's of the day. They still refuse to acccept the holocaust. So yeah I guess that was considered wrong by most. But still there were those that didn't. Those people accepted it. They justified it.

Point still stands holocaust could be justified, although perhaps it was to hard to do for all, or even impossible. Whatever the case some people justified it for themselves. Meaning that even the mass murder of people could be justified.

And it has been done before you know, just think of the Romans.. God knows how many people wanted to kill them all. And some even tried. The murder of an entire culture or race can be justified as easy as the destruction of a country as long as one is willing to accept it.

I'm not sure, are we arguing?

Originally posted by Bardock42
And you know they broke the Gold teeth out the mouths of their victims....made criminals the Guards of each house.....murdered political enemies and sent their families that they commited suicide....killed minors for not agreeing with them and all the other cruel stuff....but guess what ...ITS NOT THE ****ING POINT OF THIS ****ING THREAD.....if you want to whine aboot it...please open another one...this thread has a whole different question to it...and if you can't stay on topic why don't you jsut leave....please....

All the german people need to acknowledge it was evil and stop trying to justify it.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
All the german people need to acknowledge it was evil and stop trying to justify it.

All the British people need to see that evil is nothing that just exists by itself and need to shut up if they can't contribute.......