Originally posted by kevdude
another meaing for keter is Gods Will aka The Source/TOAA in creation, The Presence is Gods Holy Presence aka The Holy Spirit, galacticstorm u urself must now agree with me about TOAA being The Source, they are the same, nobody knows Yahweh but through his aspects he works through, The Living Tribunals JOB is to make sure everything in the Marvel Multiverse is working correct, he makes sure Gods will is being done, and is the Guardian of it. The Living Tribunal has never talked to Yahweh but he has talked to TOAA"The Source", even though TOAA is above everything in the marvel/dc multiverses he is not literally above Yahweh, he is above everyone and everything.This is how it should be:
Yahweh
The Presence/The Source/The Great Evil Beast
The Word/The Voice.
Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael
The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/Archangel Gabriel/Metatron
The First of the Fallen
also more sensible than Galactic Storms ideas Kev 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, ya know, ive been reading and reading this theory of yours for quite some time now, without really commenting. i suppose it's time. i'd be a lot more willing to follow along with your theories if:1. there wasn't an obvious 'pick-and-choose' on your part. there may indeed be a couple similarities between marvel cosmology and kabbalah, but the similarities are FAR outweighed by the dis-similarities. there is no tree of life in marvel, no sephiroths, and many of the other key kabbahlistic principles (if such a mish-mash of esoteric thoughts, conjectures and theories can truly HAVE universal principles) are left out of your comparison. you choose from several different interpretations of kabbalah, something in itself that has changed and evolved for over 2000 years. it's not impossible to find similarities to kabbalah almost ANYWHERE, if one is willing to dig. some people actually claim it served in cracking the 'bible code'! the subject is SOOOO broad and has so many existent variations/branches, that it would be more surprising if ANY cosmology DIDN'T share similarities with parts of it. aspects of kabbalah have drifted into our cultural mindset and most don't even know what it is. someone earlier mentioned kabbalah/gnosticism -- the fact is the 2 DO share many similarities (not least of which is the esoteric nature of both). the idea of dualism that kabbalah inadvertently leads to can be traced directly to gnosticism. the notion of 'metatron as lt' is essentially a gnostic assertion. so now is the comparison you make to gnosticism, or kabbalah?
2. marvel hadn't also shown a propensity for delving into, exploring and using a host of OTHER mythologies. why should similarities to ONE doctrine, be viewed anymore significantly than marvel's treatment of the various other 'religions' (norse beliefs, greek beliefs, hindu, incan, mayan . . .) the fact that certain things in marvel's (for the moment) highest level of hierarchy share a couple similarities with kabbalah, really isn't any reason to attach any more importance to your purported view than i attach to marvel's interpretation of any of the other mythologies they have plumbed. in fact, it may even ben seen as being LESS significant -- BECAUSE they have used so many other 'religious' (for lack of a better term) sources in the past, it seems almost inevitable that they would eventually set their sights on a recently reviving doctrine like kabbalah. but a couple similarities does not a doctrine make.
3. there was any value at all in accepting this theory you have been postulating and restating over and over again. even if you are right, it only allows a further understanding of the characters involved until the next retcon! and not even that with confidence. or perhaps a new writer will simply create yet another 'ultimate being'.
you've done a great deal of theorizing on this subject, and frankly i'm not sure why (other than to show everyone that you're a reasonably intelligent guy). dig deep enough and you can find similarities or conspiracies everywhere. doesn't make the similarities or conspiracies real, OR relevent.
Awesome post, it really is 🙂
thanks whirly. and really, it was not meant to be insulting in anyway to gs. it's just i'm not sure why it's worth digging and digging into . . . comic books like this. as someone who has done a fair share of writing, i can see (and well relate to the notion that) certain ideas can be irresistible and can be used to add a sense of . . . realism, or a seemingly 'symbolic' facet to a fictionialized piece of writing. but just because certain ideas have been scavenged, (ie similarities in marvel cosmology to kabbalah) doesn't mean the parallels ARE real or that they are intended to be followed.
and darkeid makes it to galactus imho. i think at that point it's kind of a 50/50 thing. because darkseid's power does not fluctuate as g's does, i think it would take a high powered g to battle him. i wonder if kirby ever intended for there to be a FULL POWERED galactus. i also can't help wondering what he would think of both the evolution of darkseid and of galactus. personally, i don't think he'd be particularly overjoyed with either . . .
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, ya know, ive been reading and reading this theory of yours for quite some time now, without really commenting. i suppose it's time. i'd be a lot more willing to follow along with your theories if:1. there wasn't an obvious 'pick-and-choose' on your part. there may indeed be a couple similarities between marvel cosmology and kabbalah, but the similarities are FAR outweighed by the dis-similarities. there is no tree of life in marvel, no sephiroths, and many of the other key kabbahlistic principles (if such a mish-mash of esoteric thoughts, conjectures and theories can truly HAVE universal principles) are left out of your comparison. you choose from several different interpretations of kabbalah, something in itself that has changed and evolved for over 2000 years. it's not impossible to find similarities to kabbalah almost ANYWHERE, if one is willing to dig. some people actually claim it served in cracking the 'bible code'! the subject is SOOOO broad and has so many existent variations/branches, that it would be more surprising if ANY cosmology DIDN'T share similarities with parts of it. aspects of kabbalah have drifted into our cultural mindset and most don't even know what it is. someone earlier mentioned kabbalah/gnosticism -- the fact is the 2 DO share many similarities (not least of which is the esoteric nature of both). the idea of dualism that kabbalah inadvertently leads to can be traced directly to gnosticism. the notion of 'metatron as lt' is essentially a gnostic assertion. so now is the comparison you make to gnosticism, or kabbalah?
2. marvel hadn't also shown a propensity for delving into, exploring and using a host of OTHER mythologies. why should similarities to ONE doctrine, be viewed anymore significantly than marvel's treatment of the various other 'religions' (norse beliefs, greek beliefs, hindu, incan, mayan . . .) the fact that certain things in marvel's (for the moment) highest level of hierarchy share a couple similarities with kabbalah, really isn't any reason to attach any more importance to your purported view than i attach to marvel's interpretation of any of the other mythologies they have plumbed. in fact, it may even ben seen as being LESS significant -- BECAUSE they have used so many other 'religious' (for lack of a better term) sources in the past, it seems almost inevitable that they would eventually set their sights on a recently reviving doctrine like kabbalah. but a couple similarities does not a doctrine make.
3. there was any value at all in accepting this theory you have been postulating and restating over and over again. even if you are right, it only allows a further understanding of the characters involved until the next retcon! and not even that with confidence. or perhaps a new writer will simply create yet another 'ultimate being'.
you've done a great deal of theorizing on this subject, and frankly i'm not sure why (other than to show everyone that you're a reasonably intelligent guy). dig deep enough and you can find similarities or conspiracies everywhere. doesn't make the similarities or conspiracies real, OR relevent.
Phoenix in its conception and now in its treatment in current continuity is presented in terms of Kaballah. There is no escaping that fact. All the ideas behind it its role and function, all stem from Kaballah. However this Kaballah treatment is reserved only for Phoenix. Just like Thors comics always deal with life and role in terms of Norse mythology. Its used to show phoenixs place in the scheme of things. Thats all. By talking about Kaballah and highlighting to people who may or may not be clued up just what the references mean and what they are conveying about a character, i am not placing a higher importance on this set of principles over any other. I never once gave it doctrine status. When im debating about characters not represented in those terms i do not discuss the principles. Phoenix just happens to be represented in terms of Kaballah, therefore i will always refer to Kaballah when im debating on the character. Like it or lump it. Its just the treatment chosen for the character. Just like DC 's highest level of beings ( Yahweh, Lucifer and so on) are represented in terms of Kaballah however those principles dont define every DC character. Its just a treatment for a specific character/title. The treatments differ from comic to comic but what doesnt change is the role and position of the Phoenix in Marvel. Other comics dont see it with their Kaballah specs on but they still acknowledge it in current continuity as the power behind all creation. Fantastic Four is a good recent example. Even certain X-titles dont use the principles but they agree on the role. Kaballah is just the treatment given nothing more.
Originally posted by leonidas
<<Like about Lucifer, that GS proved right with pictures, about Phoenix creating abstracts, is primal force, showin LT kneeling to Phoenix.>>this has been debated ad nauseum. AND it's in the wrong thread. amazing how every high powered thread turns into a phoenix thread . . .
I think you know how my friend, and I agree it is in no way meant as an insult to GS.
The problem I have is he sees all posts which provide a counter argument as an insult. I suspect though given the way you put this he will find this hard to do. 🙂 Although the conspiracy theory post was funny. 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Phoenix in its conception and now in its treatment in current continuity is presented in terms of Kaballah. There is no escaping that fact. All the ideas behind it its role and function, all stem from Kaballah. However this Kaballah treatment is reserved only for Phoenix. Just like Thors comics always deal with life and role in terms of Norse mythology. Its used to show phoenixs place in the scheme of things. Thats all. By talking about Kaballah and highlighting to people who may or may not be clued up just what the references mean and what they are conveying about a character, i am not placing a higher importance on this set of principles over any other. I never once gave it doctrine status. When im debating about characters not represented in those terms i do not discuss the principles. Phoenix just happens to be represented in terms of Kaballah, therefore i will always refer to Kaballah when im debating on the character. Like it or lump it. Its just the treatment chosen for the character. Just like DC 's highest level of beings ( Yahweh, Lucifer and so on) are represented in terms of Kaballah however those principles dont define every DC character. Its just a treatment for a specific character/title. The treatments differ from comic to comic but what doesnt change is the role and position of the Phoenix in Marvel. Other comics dont see it with their Kaballah specs on but they still acknowledge it in current continuity as the power behind all creation. Fantastic Four is a good recent example. Even certain X-titles dont use the principles but they agree on the role. Kaballah is just the treatment given nothing more.
See Leo your arguments are disregarded 🙂
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
yes in the future which is not set in a frame which is not now 🙂 it means nothing 🙂
Again you are dismissing evidence you have yet to read Whirly. 🙄
You dont have the faintest idea what youre talking about. Objectivity always helps in debates.
The abstracts intervened before Stranger could make use of Jeans connection with the power. However it was made clear that phoenix cyclically brings about the end of the abstracts and LT anyway. Stranger just wanted to do it on his timetable. He was going to speed up the process with the power and use it to protect himself during the end of creation. (Like Phoenix did for Galan as per current continuity) That would allow him to emerge as the supreme being.
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
See Leo your arguments are disregarded 🙂
His points havent been disregarded at all. He said i placed higher importance to Kaballah than the other various mythologies. I said he misunderstood and that i didnt apply kaballah to all of Marvel as it is a treatment only given to phoenix. Read posts properly mate. Theres no disregard just a bit of setting the record straight. 😱
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
His points havent been disregarded at all. He said i placed higher importance to Kaballah than the other various mythologies. I said he misunderstood and that i didnt apply kaballah to all of Marvel as it is a treatment only given to phoenix. Read posts properly mate. Theres no disregard just a bit of setting the record straight. 😱
By default your posts apply it to all of Marvel, your hierarchy ideas demand this, again picking and choosing 🙂
Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
By default your posts apply it to all of Marvel, your hierarchy ideas demand this, again picking and choosing 🙂
Not at all. 🙂 Different comics have different treatments applied to them. 🙂 What doesnt change from title to title are the roles of the higher beings. 🙂 Good try mate. Its just how it is. 😱