well vader had the edge in ROTJ when him and luke were fighting and when vader said if you wont join us maybe she will
that got luke pissed off so he embraced the darkside then luke won so there is evidence that the darkside will make someone stronger
i never said it was stronger than the lights side i just said if you use the darkside it will make you stronger that may not sound right but i guess i cant word what i want to say
Originally posted by mace=badass
well vader had the edge in ROTJ when him and luke were fighting and when vader said if you wont join us maybe she will
that got luke pissed off so he embraced the darkside then luke won so there is evidence that the darkside will make someone stronger
i never said it was stronger than the lights side i just said if you use the darkside it will make you stronger that may not sound right but i guess i cant word what i want to say
agreed
Nah.
You mean to tell me that Luke, the barely trained jedi overcame a cyborg monstrosity capable of great strength by...
Getting mad and swinging his saber around wildly?
And this translates into ROTJ Luke > TPM Obi-Wan?
Obi-Wan got pissed and beat a Sith lord who was -much- faster and more capable than OT Vader, matching him blow for blow (Even a blow behind his head) , cutting the guy's lightsaber in half and putting him on his ass. Obi-Wan pissed F*cked people's days up!
Originally posted by jollyjim311
do you have eyes?watch the movie, geez
Yes, I do have eyes, thank you. And a brain, too. Fancy that. Obviously you didn't realize just how contrived the battle seemed. You think "omfg luke won therefore luke is better than vader".
If this is how you think, then Obi-Wan must be better than Maul as of TPM, Anakin and Grievious as of ROTS. Hell, Sidious must be better than everyone except for Mace, and Mace must be weaker than Anakin therefore Obi-Wan who is better than Anakin must be better than Mace who is better than Sidious.
Seriously, don't debate like that. I did watch the movies. Both of them, more times than I'd care to count. And TPM Obi-Wan shows MUCH more skill, period. Luke won the battle, but Vader sure as hell took a dive. I just love how Luke fans try so damn hard to cling to the idea that ROTJ Luke is a reasonable opponent for ANY PT jedi despite being supposively said to be only half-trained for a jedi.
Seriously, do -you- have eyes?
Watch the OT again. Luke doesn't fight that slow. Not as fast as Obi-wan or Maul by anymeans, but he isn't some slow lumbering idiot. Well, maybe a idiot, but he isn't that slow really.
Also(I'll try to get some sources soon) that when Luke went daark, he defeated Vader fairly. Vader is quoted to have been 80% as powerful as Vader. This doesn't necessarily mean Luke was more powerful, just that he was able to defeat someone of that level of strength. If he was horribly outmatched, then he would have lost.
So, I think Luke would win.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Yes, I do have eyes, thank you. And a brain, too. Fancy that. Obviously you didn't realize just how contrived the battle seemed. You think "omfg luke won therefore luke is better than vader".If this is how you think, then Obi-Wan must be better than Maul as of TPM, Anakin and Grievious as of ROTS. Hell, Sidious must be better than everyone except for Mace, and Mace must be weaker than Anakin therefore Obi-Wan who is better than Anakin must be better than Mace who is better than Sidious.
Seriously, don't debate like that. I did watch the movies. Both of them, more times than I'd care to count. And TPM Obi-Wan shows MUCH more skill, period. Luke won the battle, but Vader sure as hell took a dive. I just love how Luke fans try so damn hard to cling to the idea that ROTJ Luke is a reasonable opponent for ANY PT jedi despite being supposively said to be only half-trained for a jedi.
Seriously, do -you- have eyes?
i hate it when people say this person beats this person so he could win, so we do agree on something. Luke is very powerful when he gives into the darkside, even more powerful than Obi.
P.S. I have beautiful eyes.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Watch the OT again. Luke doesn't fight that slow. Not as fast as Obi-wan or Maul by anymeans, but he isn't some slow lumbering idiot. Well, maybe a idiot, but he isn't that slow really.Also(I'll try to get some sources soon) that when Luke went daark, he defeated Vader fairly. Vader is quoted to have been 80% as powerful as Vader. This doesn't necessarily mean Luke was more powerful, just that he was able to defeat someone of that level of strength. If he was horribly outmatched, then he would have lost.
So, I think Luke would win.
You always try to debate this when you have more than two people on your side, Glentract. Any other time and you remain mute. Why again is that?
btw, don't tell me to watch the OT again. I've most likely watched it more than you have, or perhaps even anyone in this forum. Luke -does- fight that slow in comparison to TPM Obi-Wan. He also shows less swordsmanship. Since you don't know the first thing about swordfighting, why should I listen to your interpretation of something I've seen dozens upon dozens of times?
And if that was a fair fight, GL sure has a shitty way of showing it. Yes, Vader is quoted as being 80% of Sidious in FORCE POTENTIAL AND MASTERY after Mustafar. I'm amazed at how often that quote is twisted to meet everyone's means. ONe minute it says ROTJ Luke absolutely MUST be better than 80 % of Sidious if he beat Vader... absolutely, no exceptions. Another minute it says that Vader is somehow naturally twice as powerful as Sidious before Mustafar, etc. etc. Ridiculous.
So let me break down the argument for the Luke-sympathezers:
Luke will beat TPM Obi-Wan who is has:
- Survived point blank shots from battle droids at minimal ranges.
- Fought and studied under a proficient jedi master for most of his life.
- Successfully outduelled a Sith lord.
- Has shown far more mastery of the Force and capability, along with lightning quick saber skills.
Because he:
- Beat Vader, his father who died to save him shortly afterwards, with what had to be the worst swordfighting in the history of the series and many others.
- Got his ass singed fighting the caught off guard gun crew of Jabba's sailbarge.
- Passed out after doing some speederbike racing on Endor and reflecting a few shots from an Imperial speederbike.
- Is apparently in GL's words, a "half-trained" jedi. Then in another breathe (depending on the person arguing it) he's suddenly a jedi knight or the equivalent as of ROTJ, also by GL's word.
- wasn't smart or quick enough to avoid falling down a pit at Jabba's palace, and had to use a rock to hit a switch to kill the Rancor. (When would Obi-Wan ever get that stupid?)
- Has NEVER shown even halfway decent lightsaber fighting skill. I'm sure if he had, I'd have Nai and Illustrious and Fishy and Darkstar in here berating me for being way off base. But I don't see that, do you?
IN short, Luke has no case. He loses. Admit it, and move on.
Although everybody hates it when someone points out the choreagraphy thing, I think that if the OT was made these days the fights would be much faster. So judging on speed of the fights should be discarded.
But I do think that when Luke gives in to his anger he is far more dangerous than padawan Obi as Luke is supposedly very strong with the force. Although I don't know how to explain that anger thing it did allow padawan Obi to defeat and fight great against Maul who has his own alternation of Juyo. It's a shame though that the fighting style thing wasn't invented yet when the OT was created, so maybe there is just no telling. We do know that Ataru isn't perfect and Obi Wan hadn't mastered that form either.
But whatever, I think Luke would defeat padawan Obi Wan..
Originally posted by overlord
Although everybody hates it when someone points out the choreagraphy thing, I think that if the OT was made these days the fights would be much faster. So judging on speed of the fights should be discarded.
But I do think that when Luke gives in to his anger he is far more dangerous than padawan Obi as Luke is supposedly very strong with the force. Although I don't know how to explain that anger thing it did allow padawan Obi to defeat and fight great against Maul who has his own alternation of Juyo. It's a shame though that the fighting style thing wasn't invented yet when the OT was created, so maybe there is just no telling. We do know that Ataru isn't perfect and Obi Wan hadn't mastered that form either.
But whatever, I think Luke would defeat padawan Obi Wan..
First, problem with throwing out the battle sequences based on choreography limitations is you invalidate the entire OT. Why? Well, you're basically telling me that I can't rely on the only canon material for the OT and instead I must go with your speculation and assumptions. This is nonsense. The OT exists. Until Gl comes out and overturns it, it is canon. If he seeks to redo those scenes in the future, then we will have another source to draw from. But for now, the movie and Luke's ineptness stand.
Second, there is absolutely NO proof or evidence that an angered Luke is stronger than an angered Obi-Wan. If anything, the level of asswhupping that Obi-Wan gave in under a minute outshines Luke's by far, and this is venturing off into ridiculousland anyways. Who's to say either of them will be angry? They might both be cool and fatalistic about it.
Third, Obi-Wan was a pratitioner of Ataru for quite some time. He was 25 as of TPM, and we know that younglings finish Shii-Cho and move on to their chosen form. Even if Obi-Wan had two years of Shii-Cho (Which I believe is the minimum) and five years of Ataru, this is more than Luke's ~3 years of Shien/Djem SO praticising. Actually, I'd argue that Luke really doesn't adhere to Form V since he wasn't aware of its existance and Obi-Wan nor Yoda ever showed him any concepts from the form.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Luke will beat TPM Obi-Wan who is has:- Survived point blank shots from battle droids at minimal ranges.
- Fought and studied under a proficient jedi master for most of his life.
- Successfully outduelled a Sith lord.
- Has shown far more mastery of the Force and capability, along with lightning quick saber skills.
Actually Janus, I just didn't feel like getting into this debate again. I see I need to though.
I'm just going to address these points for the moment.
What was the largest number of droids he ever fought at one time? There were probably around 50 Sail Guards. Luke had a little help, but not a lot. Han and Chewie were trying to save Lando and Leia didn't even have a gun. I don't think there is anyone else fighting on the Rebel side, if there was, please correct me. Luke also took out Black Sun headquarters. he had help, but it like three other people; Luke did a lot of the work there.
Obi-wan was 26 in TPM I believe and had been studying under Qui-gon for thirteen years. A far greater amount of training time than Luke had, but the OT Jedi taught very slowly. This was to reduce the chance of a student falling to the darkside. It seems to work too. They had some 10 or 20 students fall to the darkside out of 10000 compared to Luke's 5 or so out of a hundred. This is because they gained power far more quickly that PT Jedi. The PT Jedi were held back, but it was for their own good.
Look at Corran Horn for example. He got either four or six weeks of training at Luke's praxeum before he left. Half of that time, Luke was unconscious. thats two to three weeks of actual training, but he was able to either defeat or stand against a Jensaari, I'll check which if you want me to. He also took out an Imperial Base. Corran was a Corsec officer before his Jedi training, but can you really say a Cop would stand a chance against dozens of soliders?
Luke had about a week under Obi-wan and about a week under Yoda. He also studied from the teachings Obi-wan left for him on Tatooine for some time. I'm not sure how long, but it was probably at least a month. We've seen what an unrestricted Jedi can learn in two or three weeks, and Luke had more time than that along with a higher natural potential.
Maul also had more training than Obi-wan. Qui-gon had more training that Maul. Sidious probably had more training than Mace. Drallig had more training than Vader. Training time isn't a good point, when added to the fact that the PT Jedi restricted their students to keep them from falling to the darkside.
Luke also wasn't restricted by Yoda and Obi-wan. They were training him to be a weapon to defeat Vader and Sidious. This can be seen by the fact that Luke force choked two people in ROTJ.
Obi-wan outdueled a Sith Lord? I seem to remember him doing well, but still being force pushed into a big hole in the ground. That doesn't seem like outdueling to me.
Even IF Obi-wan outdueled him, Luke took out a Sith Lord too. ROTJ was his third fight against Vader. The first one, Obi-wan took control of Luke's body and was able to fight Vader off. Luke also was holding a Kiaburr crystal. The Kyber crystal is a creation of SS, but the Kiaburr crystal was invented some twenty years ago by the author of Spinter of the Minds Eye. There is no way Luke a few months after ANH could take anyone of any real caliber. ESB, same thing. Vader toyed with him, then got pissed and led him to the garage, belt in hand. Vader pwned Luke in ESB, AFTER Luke had done some okay fighting. I'm not saying ESB Luke would stand a chance against Obi-wan, just that while Vader was toying with him, he did do okay. Remember, not good, but okay.
What is this great mastery of the force that Obi-wan has? He force pushed some droids, jumped real high, ran real fast, called a lightsaber to him, predicted the movements of an opponent in a lightsaber fight.... anything else?
Luke didn't fight any droids, so he couldn't have done that, but he didn't force push living opponents either. He did lift C3PO up. It would be much easier to do; he wasn't in the middle of a battle. He did choke two Gamorreans with the force though.
Obi-wan jumped from one walkway to another in TPM. How far was that; twenty or thirty feet maybe, its been a while since I've watched TPM. Luke jumped onto that walkway in ROTJ. It wasn't nearly as far, but it still shows that he has the ability to force jump, and it didn't seem to be his upper limit. We can't really tell who has the advantage here, but it's probably Obi-wan.
Running, well, Obi-wan has this. I don't think Luke ever demonstrated this ability.
Calling a lightsaber to him. Telekinesis again. When Obi-wan did it, it was only a few feet away. Same with Luke. Also, one time, when Luke did it in TPM, he had only a week or so with Obi-wan. Calling a lightsaber to one self seems trivial to me, so whatever. It's a tie in either case.
Obi-wan predicted Mauls movements. Luke predicted Vaders. This goes back to defeating a Sith Lord. We can't really tell which one is better, I'd say Luke, you'd say Obi-wan.
Lightsaber skill. Luke was butted heads with Vader, defeating him when he went into a darkside rage. Earlier in the fight, Vader WAS holding back, but Luke was too. He wanted to turn Vader back to the Light. Killing him wouldn't do this. He even threw down his lightsaber when he could have killed Vader.
Don't give that bogus about Vader not trying because he was only using one hand. I read that vader had modified his style to only need one hand because he had enough strength where two hands was unnecessary.
If there is anything you want cleared up, please point it out to me and I will try to explain it, rather than you just stating that it is unresonable.
The whole fighting style thing made the OT look like BS. If Luke had minimal fighting skills he shouldn't be able to ever make Vader even break out a sweat, but I he did.
And by that anger thing I mean fighting with the power of the dark side, I believe Luke must be stronger with the force than Obi Wan as he is a child of Anakin and everybody is always saying that in the movies.
But we must both agree that all these subjects are all a matter of opinion for both of us, and the fact that Luke probably doesn't have a fighting style makes this fight almost impossible to predict.
That last thing you said is the most brilliant part of the post, I want even debate the rest.
"I read that vader had modified his style to only need one hand because he had enough strength where two hands was unnecessary."
Thats true, that would mean Vader has some incredible physical strength, still Luke beat him back. You are not going to tell me he had more physical strength then Vader, and you sure as hell can't tell me he did it using the force. I don't know how he did it, but he did beat Vader when even according to your own post he should not have been able to do so.
Actually Janus, I just didn't feel like getting into this debate again. I see I need to though.
Bullshit. You start debates like this every time you have even a small supporting audience. Don't pretend like you hate having to do this, like it's some chore.
What was the largest number of droids he ever fought at one time? There were probably around 50 Sail Guards. Luke had a little help, but not a lot. Han and Chewie were trying to save Lando and Leia didn't even have a gun. I don't think there is anyone else fighting on the Rebel side, if there was, please correct me. Luke also took out Black Sun headquarters. he had help, but it like three other people; Luke did a lot of the work there.
Where did you get 50 sail guards? When did Luke fight them all? When did more than two or three of them fire at him at once? How did Luke take out the Black Sun HQ? How does this make him beat a jedi?
Obi-wan was 26 in TPM I believe and had been studying under Qui-gon for thirteen years. A far greater amount of training time than Luke had, but the OT Jedi taught very slowly. This was to reduce the chance of a student falling to the darkside. It seems to work too. They had some 10 or 20 students fall to the darkside out of 10000 compared to Luke's 5 or so out of a hundred. This is because they gained power far more quickly that PT Jedi. The PT Jedi were held back, but it was for their own good.
Obsfucation. There -were- no OT jedi outside of Ben and Yoda, and Ben didn't train Luke for more than a day. Yoda didn't have Luke for longer than a week, tops. That's a generous estimate. Never once did Yoda show Luke swordsmanship. Never once did he instruct him in how to defeat opponents using the Force. Never once did Yoda teach Luke anything but the very basics, which included basic TK and learning to trust his feelings.
Look at Corran Horn for example. He got either four or six weeks of training at Luke's praxeum before he left. Half of that time, Luke was unconscious. thats two to three weeks of actual training, but he was able to either defeat or stand against a Jensaari, I'll check which if you want me to. He also took out an Imperial Base. Corran was a Corsec officer before his Jedi training, but can you really say a Cop would stand a chance against dozens of soliders?
No more than I would say that Kyle Katarn, a mercenary, could eliminate hordes of Dark Troopers and defeat dark jedi back and forth. No more than I could say that James Bond beats half of Russia in any given movie of 007. If very little training is required to become über jedi, why the hell do jedi have extended mentorships? Well, for one, mastering saber to saber combat is like trying to master real life swordfighting: it takes time. It is not something you learn over the weekend, or even in a few weeks. To become truly good one must devote themselves to it for the long haul. Corran Horn being that good is quite a stretch. Assuming that because Horn was that good Luke must be also as good is even moreso.
Luke had about a week under Obi-wan and about a week under Yoda. He also studied from the teachings Obi-wan left for him on Tatooine for some time. I'm not sure how long, but it was probably at least a month. We've seen what an unrestricted Jedi can learn in two or three weeks, and Luke had more time than that along with a higher natural potential.
It wasn't a week. Travel from Tatooine to Alderaan is listed as under a day. Check the dvd special features. Something like 7 or 8 hours. And A week with Yoda is a tenative guess based on nothing, really. If you consider how long it takes for the Falcon to get to Lando's establisment from Hoth (which I believe the exact time IS on the above mentioned DVD special features) they must have been tortured for close to a week. Hard to believe a week took place during that movie. Seems to me much more like a day or two, tops. So really, you expect me to believe that with perhaps three days training and some holocrons, Luke became good enough to beat a jedi who, as you have said yourself, trained for thirteen years? Rubbish.
Maul also had more training than Obi-wan. Qui-gon had more training that Maul. Sidious probably had more training than Mace. Drallig had more training than Vader. Training time isn't a good point, when added to the fact that the PT Jedi restricted their students to keep them from falling to the darkside.
Restricted? No, put emphasis on their morality. Now you're trying to discredit the PT jedi, huh? Nice. Despite the fact that someone (possibly even you) argued that the PT jedi were much better than the OT ones. And if you're going to eliminate experience entirely as a basis for combat capability, then TPM Anakin must be better than ROTJ Luke because he had NO training and even more Force potential, huh?
Luke also wasn't restricted by Yoda and Obi-wan. They were training him to be a weapon to defeat Vader and Sidious. This can be seen by the fact that Luke force choked two people in ROTJ.
Obi-Wan told him to trust his feelings and had him fight a remote. Yoda told him the same thing and taught him basic Force techniques. If anything, Luke failed his test in Dagobah under the tree when he struck down Vader in anger. Yoda was pissed. And never once did Obi-Wan nor Yoda tell Luke to Force choke people. If anything, Obi-Wan in ANH was more pacifistic then he was in the PT. He didn't kill a soul in the movie, despite having more than a few occassions to do so. Yoda didn't even rebuild a lightsaber or use another weapon. They were sages in that era, content with peace, meditation, and the Force.
Obi-wan outdueled a Sith Lord? I seem to remember him doing well, but still being force pushed into a big hole in the ground. That doesn't seem like outdueling to me.
One-to-one swordfighting, Obi-Wan bested Maul. Maul changed the rules of the game when he used the Force push. If Maul had instead turned the battle around with a well-placed strike or kick, I'd have pointed out that Obi-Wan's anger was short lived. IN any case it probably was, but his skill and talent with the blade is easily enough to match with Maul. Maul would destroy Skywalker.
I'm short for space and your next paragraph was pointless. Moving on.
What is this great mastery of the force that Obi-wan has? He force pushed some droids, jumped real high, ran real fast, called a lightsaber to him, predicted the movements of an opponent in a lightsaber fight.... anything else?
Oh, I get it. He's not Luke and hasn't had three whole days of training, so his thirteen years of studying under Qui-Gon must have made him a subpar Force user. Despite the fact that he uses the Force more readily and naturally than Luke does, and to greater affect. And for god's sake, Obi-Wan is smarter and wiser than ROTJ Luke. Or does that fall under experience?
Luke didn't fight any droids, so he couldn't have done that, but he didn't force push living opponents either. He did lift C3PO up. It would be much easier to do; he wasn't in the middle of a battle. He did choke two Gamorreans with the force though.
Force choking two Gamoreans doesn't make him beat Obi-Wan. And when he levitated C-3PO he had to close his eyes and concentrate.
Obi-wan predicted Mauls movements. Luke predicted Vaders. This goes back to defeating a Sith Lord. We can't really tell which one is better, I'd say Luke, you'd say Obi-wan.
Where did Luke predict Vader's moves? I'd like to see this in print, if possible.
Lightsaber skill. Luke was butted heads with Vader, defeating him when he went into a darkside rage. Earlier in the fight, Vader WAS holding back, but Luke was too. He wanted to turn Vader back to the Light. Killing him wouldn't do this. He even threw down his lightsaber when he could have killed Vader.
If it isn't obvious to you by now, nothing I say will help. Watch that fight and examine everything some time, and tell me with any amount of certainty that Vader was really trying.
Don't give that bogus about Vader not trying because he was only using one hand. I read that vader had modified his style to only need one hand because he had enough strength where two hands was unnecessary.
Not what I said. What I did say is that Vader is strong enough to easily lift a full grown man up a foot off the ground. How he could not fend off Luke's swings all of a sudden is ridiculous. And for someone who was playing the weak, defeated Vader on the ground, he sure got up real quick when Luke pissed the Emperor off. You should consider the possibility that Vader was luring Luke to the dark side by having him lash out at an opponent he had good reason to hate. Striking down Vader in a cloud of rage as he lay "helpless" is a very strong method of presuasion.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Overlord, don't blame it on technology. Luke is like that for now. If GL wanted to redo it, he would have by now.
No, I just think that we didn't get the proper impression of Luke.
But it is pretty weird how most people just immediately consider this fight decided. And all the reasons for padawan Obi are also mostly assumption and specualation. But anyway I believe that the real conception of SW is that Vader was the most powerfull warrior ever and that his children were just as great with the force. I admit it's an opinion but all the other opinions contain a lot of assuming too. Maybe there is just no way to decide this battle. Sorry, to say it though, I must go the pub now as it is night in my country now! So good luck to both you and deuce!
Its not night its not even 8 a clock, no time to be in a bar.. Although i'm leaving myself shortly to go to friends but thats not the point..
Anyways no this fight can be decided, what is with people losing always saying lets just agree to disagree. Half of the time they are beaten and nothing stands but their opinion. You have nothing to support Luke and there is far more to support Obi Wan. Its only logical to assume Obi Wan would win.