Ganthet vs White-Crown Phoenix

You ain't offending me. But, Spectre did not do most of the work. Hal was half way rid of Parallax and at that point, he asks for help. Spectre couldn't get rid of Parallax himself and since we seem to be in agreement on at least that, how can you give him more credit than Hal?

Second, the reason why the JLA, Titans, JSA and 3 Lanterns couldn't hurt Parallax-infected Spectre/Hal wasn't because he was more powerful at that time. It was because they didn't know HOW to fight it. Thats why a mere 5 Lanterns were able to take down P-infected Ganthet. They understood it and they used their rings as a conduit to trap Parallax.

For the theory of Spectre > Ganthet, you MUST assume these premises:
1) Ganthet is lying OR doesn't know what he's talking about.
2) Parallax is contradicting himself just so he can mock Ganthet.
3) The drama placed on Ganthet's possession derives from a love of the character rather than an emphasis on more danger.
4) The climax was written so that it was at its peak danger during issue #4 and lowered the stakes by #5-6.
5) The writer's and artist's designs were misleading.

For Ganthet > Spectre, those same premises are presented this way:
1) Ganthet is not lying AND knows what he's talking about.
2) Parallax never contradicts himself.
3) The drama from Ganthet's possession derives from a heightened crisis due to an increase in power.
4) The climax was written in #5 and #6 right before the resolution.
5) The writer's designs and artist's renditions were correct in making infected Ganthet much more massive and monstrous and intimidating.

Do you see where I'm getting at and why I'm getting there? Its the idea of Okham's razor. If its easier to explain it in one way, the reason is because that is the way it probably is. You're theory runs something like; Ganthet is an idiot, Parallax goes around making fun of people, the writer doesn't know basic story-telling and the depictions are flawed.

In the DC Legends 4 Part miniseries that kicked off his run as the Spectre, he stated and I'll quote...word by word the power he held as Paralax[the power to destroy and recreate universes, and fend himself at the same time against some of the heaviest hitters in time.] was "as a flickering candle next to an exploding sun" in comparison to The Spectre, and that was long before he unlocked The Spectre's full potential in his series.

Like I said, Ganthet is in the very highest tier in the powerful cosmics/godlikenesses, but if one of the Aspect Forces decides you need to die.. you die.. without question. This would never happen in the comic, the supreme being wouldn't allow it... but in the idea of VERSUS threads, that is what happens.

Originally posted by Juntai
In the DC Legends 4 Part miniseries that kicked off his run as the Spectre, he stated and I'll quote...word by word the power he held as Paralax[the power to destroy and recreate universes, and fend himself at the same time against some of the heaviest hitters in time.] was "as a flickering candle next to an exploding sun" in comparison to The Spectre, and that was long before he unlocked The Spectre's full potential in his series.

Like I said, Ganthet is in the very highest tier in the powerful cosmics/godlikenesses, but if one of the Aspect Forces decides you need to die.. you die.. without question. This would never happen in the comic, the supreme being wouldn't allow it... but in the idea of VERSUS threads, that is what happens.

And I don't wanna hear comments on how Rebirth and Day of Vengeance are PIS or CIS, because these series,... like OMAC Project and Identity Crisis are setting stones for the damn revamp of DC comics. Geoff Johns, who wrote Rebirth is one of three authors who steered Infinite Crisis to where it is now and he's pretty much writing the actual series. So take those DC Legends miniseries and toss em,... apparently, they don't apply anymore.

Why all this talk? Phoenix wins unless someones disputing this?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Funny then, how Spectre couldn't do a damn thing against Parallax in the more recent Green Lantern: Rebirth series. While I will believe every word you say, then the most logical thing to assume, is they apparently retconned it. Rebirth is more recent. They probably did it in anticipation of Day of Vengeance and Infinite Crisis. So in the idea of VERSUS threads, more recent material is regarded as more reliable as long as it doesn't involve PIS or CIS.

And I don't wanna hear comments on how Rebirth and Day of Vengeance are PIS or CIS, because these series,... like OMAC Project and Identity Crisis are setting stones for the damn revamp of DC comics. Geoff Johns, who wrote Rebirth is one of three authors who steered Infinite Crisis to where it is now and he's pretty much writing the actual series. So take those DC Legends miniseries and toss em,... apparently, they don't apply anymore.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why all this talk? Phoenix wins unless someones disputing this?

And just for a nail in the coffin... in the events where Hal BECAME the Spectre, Azreal had the Spectre Force power, and one of the first things he did after freezing hell and Neron, and erupting into the physical plane.. was to shut off Ganthet, Highfather, Shazam, and the rest of the quintessences' powers, and warned them not to interfere.

Just because Ganthet or other characters say things that are wrong does not mean they are lying or stupid, its just the writers are showing everyone they can be wrong sometimes.....Characters are allowed to have there own humor and it shows they are actual beings not just robots.

In #4 where the part The Spectre helps Hal separate from Parallax, it shows Spectre finishing the job Hal started and Hal not helping at all just falling away.

I don't really think of it as lowering the stakes, Ganthet was and is a very powerful being, in some ways it could be said they raised the stakes because they could have lost Ganthet to Parallax forever. Batman also says in the #1 that if Hal/Parallax get control of Spectre they will be close to unstoppable.

Hal knew The Spectre could destroy Parallax by himself, but its a GL book and how would everyone feel if Spectre took out Parallax while they have all of the GL and some members of JSA/JLA there to do it.. They made The Spectre leave because he wasn't needed no more, they also wanted to show all 5 of those GL's working together and getting rid of Parallax there own way.... Ganthet cannot be more powerful or as powerful as The Spectre, The Spectre gets his power from God/The Presence, Ganthet does not get his power from The Presence.

Originally posted by kevdude
Just because Ganthet or other characters say things that are wrong does not mean they are lying or stupid, its just the writers are showing everyone they can be wrong sometimes.....Characters are allowed to have there own humor and it shows they are actual beings not just robots.

In #4 where the part The Spectre helps Hal separate from Parallax, it shows Spectre finishing the job Hal started and Hal not helping at all just falling away.

I don't really think of it as lowering the stakes, Ganthet was and is a very powerful being, in some ways it could be said they raised the stakes because they could have lost Ganthet to Parallax forever. Batman also says in the #1 that if Hal/Parallax get control of Spectre they will be close to unstoppable.

Hal knew The Spectre could destroy Parallax by himself, but its a GL book and how would everyone feel if Spectre took out Parallax while they have all of the GL and some members of JSA/JLA there to do it.. They made The Spectre leave because he wasn't needed no more, they also wanted to show all 5 of those GL's working together and getting rid of Parallax there own way.... Ganthet cannot be more powerful or as powerful as The Spectre, The Spectre gets his power from God/The Presence, Ganthet does not get his power from The Presence.

onedumbGO, no attack intended, but why the crispy critter to you give a damn if the x-men took on something of cosmic importance instead of the avengers?

once again, no attack intended, it just always bothered me that people get their knickers in a twist when it comes to the x-men "overstepping their boundaries" in terms of power.

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
why the crispy critter

I love that phrase 😂

I agree its always bothered me as well. Why shouldnt the X-men be able to take on cosmic threats. Its not something they do all the time its just good for a bit of variety.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
... I agree its always bothered me as well. Why shouldnt the X-men be able to take on cosmic threats. Its not something they do all the time its just good for a bit of variety.

The stories that hold to this and extend from it are the essence of these characters. When you place the X-Men or Batman in a story where their roots have no place, you get somethin that ain't true to the characters themselves. Sure I could place Batman up against goon villain #521, but if its got nothing to do with his roots or what makes his character tick, what the hell's the point? This is what happened in Dark Phoenix saga and even X-Men the End. Claremont said, "Forget about bigotry, forget about inhumanity and hatred that forced these mutants to be heroes. Y'know what? It doesn't even matter that they're mutants. Let's go big and bad for the sake of cosmic opera, rather than human drama!"

If Star Wars was told where you only showed the battles and forgot about Skywalker's rise from peasant origin to hero or Vader's inner turmoil, you get a crap movie. This is how I first started thinking, "What a stupid story this Dark Phoenix saga is." I asked myself, how the hell are they going to turn this into the 3rd movie? You're gonna take Hugh Jackman & Anna Paquin into space, fist-fight aliens, and make one of your characters a cosmic entity? Do you have any idea how absurd this would appear to audiences and even to fans? People would ask, "Where the hell did that come from? It's just an excuse for fights and special effects. What happened to the war between mutants and humans? What happened to the things that made Wolvie and Rogue tick? WTF?" Take that thought and apply it to the comic and thats my problem with it.

Originally posted by Juntai
But Hal's series as Spectre is what led us to this point, and you'd know that if you'd read them... God/The Logoz/Micheal.. everyone repeatedly told him the new age was coming from the very beginning in his run, and slowly led us to now. So much for throwing it out the window huh? The things Hal did in there, Ganthet would never be able to touch. Saying that Ganthet is more powerful than The Spectre is saying God is fallible, because The Spectre is only limited if DC's God wills it so, since it is a piece of the Almighty itself.

This argument of Spectre can't be weaker because he's an aspect of God is ridiculous. They aren't the same thing. This is a fallacious assumption and you're missing premises. All you have to do, is insert a premise and see if this holds up. One I can think of is this. Spectre can't do anything wrong because he's an aspect of God. Well what the hell is happening now in Day of Vengeance? Spectre can't be weakened or threatened with destruction because he's an aspect of God. Spectre got spanked and says himself that they nearly destroyed him. You're argument inevitably leads to this, Spectre is the most powerful being because he's an aspect of God. And yet, that statement in itself is flawed because you exclude God. If you understand the fallacy, then you realize there are beings stronger than the Spectre. Everything in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance points to this fact. If it contradicts earlier material, scratch it up to God's will if it makes you happy.

And just FYI, I was hella surprised to find out Spectre was weaker also. I always thought he was the most powerful also. But if Geoff Johns and the rest of the DC crew are using him in this fashion, I'm not going to stick to my crumbling preconceptions in the face of new evidence that is clearly not PIS. That's the plain bottom line. Things change.

And to keep the assumption that Spectre is more powerful, you basically have to assume the 5 things that I listed up there or explain them away somehow. The fact that they are diffucult to explain away should point out to you, especially in light of Day of Vengeance that it makes more sense that Spectre isn't as powerful as you think. Is it that hard to let go?

Also the Shadowpact was tapping into several pantheons, dead gods, the heros, even individuals.. it was like the universe was fighting back at him. Your statement is irrelivent when its the universe vs Spectre.

be back, gotta work for 8

Originally posted by Juntai
Also the Shadowpact was tapping into several pantheons, dead gods, the heros, even individuals.. it was like the universe was fighting back at him. Your statement is irrelivent when its the universe vs Spectre...

The Spectre was fighting thousands upon tens of thousands of magic users in that fight anyone else would have been killed if that was them, and yes i do believe Ganthet woulda been beat by Captain Marvel if it was him. Also Parallax did not remake the universe he was using weaknesses left over from the Crisis and Anti-Monitor to rebuild a new universe manipulating everything. The Spectre has never remade the entire universe???? have u read Zero Hour???? at the end The Spectre made the new DCU pumping more and more power into Damage so he couldn't control it creating the new Big Bang.

I don't really agree with juntai about The Spectre being God, he is a fallen angel transformed by The Almighty to work for him, he was given The Spectre Force by God so he could go around bringing Divine Vengeance upon anyone who is evil. The Spectre can make mistakes and when he does he usually ends up losing because that is not how God wants things... The Spectres power was powered down by The Voice. Even though The Spectre is still the most powerful being in the DCU that we usually see.

Originally posted by kevdude
... The Spectre has never remade the entire universe???? have u read Zero Hour???? at the end The Spectre made the new DCU pumping more and more power into Damage so he couldn't control it creating the new Big Bang.

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=40070

Stuff changes. Apparently Phoenix is God in MU. You just roll with the BS after a while if the story reads good. I will make a bonfire of the horsepoo that is X-Men: The End, but Rebirth was ok and I'm thoroughly enjoying Day of Vengeance. It wouldn't nearly be as good if Spectre was the strongest being in the universe. He could have just destroyed Parallax outright and if Geoff Johns let him do that, there's no way Rebirth could have worked. No way does Day of Vengeance work either. Captain Marvel should have just been blinked out of existence, or cut off from Shazam's power. Why would Spectre need to resort to fisticuffs? You guys are arguing with the wrong person, I didn't create the inconsistency, I just read it and roll with it. Go stick a burning cross on Geoff John's lawn. I'm just very surprised even given all of this and my careful premises, you guys still don't roll with it, but to each his own!

Captian Marvel was getting murdered when he was fighting Spectre by himself, Spectre didn't even know he(CM) was going to have help (thousands helping him that is). After he was getting help from them he was doing pretty good, but still CM was worn down from controlling powers he was never meant to hold... The Spectre couldn't cut off his power after he was already powered up, if he knew before hand it was going to happen he could have stopped it.

Before the fight with powered up CM, Spectre was already fighting other powerful beings, he was worn down like anyone else would be, hes been fighting constantly in almost every book of Day of Vengeance. There is no inconsistency, just read Rebirth another 10+ times and ull get it. 😎

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I love that phrase 😂

I agree its always bothered me as well. Why shouldnt the X-men be able to take on cosmic threats. Its not something they do all the time its just good for a bit of variety.