Ganthet vs White-Crown Phoenix

Started by OneDumbG06 pages

Alright, there is no way I'm going to get through to you guys. So this is my last post and I'll give you the chance to get through to me instead. You guys decide what to do with it. One of you folks commented on how Spectre was so powerful he "shut off Ganthet, Shazam and Highfather from interfering with him." Well... why didn't he just shut off Captain Marvel or shut off the connection to the power of Shazam in Day of Vengeance? Oh, right... its because he doesn't feel like it, just like he didn't feel like being rid of Parallax. More excuses. My views and logic need no excuses. This is my main problem with looking at Rebirth and Day of Vengeance "your way." Too many inconsistencies and excuses. Therefore, if you counter these points logically, and they make sense with each other, without lame excuses like above, maybe I'll consider actually believing you guys.
Thus, assuming Spectre is the strongest being in the universe, stronger than Ganthet who wielded the power of the Guardians:

1) Why did Spectre say he couldn't get rid of Parallax?
2) He did it before, so why didn't Spectre forego having to 'cook the magic out' of Cap Marvel and just shut off his connection or for that matter, shut off Shazam?
3) Why did the Spectre almost die just by the combined might of a multitude of magical beings?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) If we assume he's not lying or isn't stupid, why didn't Ganthet understand he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax contradict himself?

So far, I think my explanation to all these problems are logical, right? And they don't contradict each other and they are much easier to swallow... well except for the people who apparently refuse to believe DC, :gasps: changes things! Thusly, I challenge you, if you can explain the above coherently, without contradicting your assumption that Spectre is the most powerful being, I will start to see why you assume your views. Have fun.

all ur questions have been answered already... About him shutting off Shazam/Highfather/Ganthets powers and not shutting off CM powers when he was getting help, The Spectre did not KNOW that was going to happen, if he did know he would have stopped it before it actually happened ( just like how he was stopping the young girl from taking his powers away from him again ). CM was not just powered by Shazam and a few others, he was powered by all of the magical beings powered on Earth trying to stop Spectre, its kinda of hard even for The Spectre to stop the power that CM was getting because 1. he was fighting a powerful being as powerful as him. and 2. CM was being protected probably by magic so The Spectre couldn't just take it all away from him.. He would have to fight with him and wait until 1. Spectre won and out lasted CM who was being powered by thousands of other beings or 2. lose the fight and be destroyed and probably taking CM down with him.

1. The Spectre never said he couldn't destroy Parallax, he only said he was trying to separate Hal's soul from Parallax then cast judgement on it for all the evil it has done in Gods Universe... when it finally happened that Parallax from freed from Hal's soul, The Spectre was told by Hal to destroy Parallax, The Spectre then told him he was not his ring and he had interfered enough, God was calling him home, and The Spectre had to leave because it was more important for him to serve God then to serve his own will (destroying Parallax).

2. Answered already on top 🙂.

3. Hes been fighting very powerful magical beings almost no-stop, he fought CM when he was connect with tens of thousands of magical beings, CM had magic all around him protecting him and helping him in his effort to fight The Spectre. Did u even notice The Shadowpact was complaining that they felt like they felt like crap and they wasn't even the ones physicaly fighting him???

4. Probably because Parallax was getting afraid he was going to lose (they was actually stopping him from putting fear into them so they could fight him). So he did what any villain would do and that is intimidate his rivals, he grew so big to try to make them fear him so he could win, this did not work they all worked together as a team and beat him.

5. Ganthet isn't stupid and i don't believe he was meaning to lie, he can be wrong though, anyone can be wrong even him. Parallax even said right before he infected Ganthet something about like "if you Ganthet are so powerful and more powerful then The Spectre then how am i here now and u can't get rid of me??"

6. When did Parallax contradict himself??? do u mean when he told The Spectre and Hal they was nothing but hosts to him??? if u mean that then, he was being WAY to confident in himself that he forced them to be mute and they wouldn't be a problem anymore..

The Spectre has talked to The Presence, The Word(The Logos), Archangel Michael and others in Heaven, Ganthet i don't believe has even the power to get to The Silver City so how is he going to be more powerful then The Spectre??? Well i hope you understand where we are coming from about him being more powerful then Ganthet if not then maybe well get to see them both fight one on one and see who wins then, but i still say The Spectre is more powerful.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Alright, there is no way I'm going to get through to you guys. So this is my last post and I'll give you the chance to get through to me instead. You guys decide what to do with it. One of you folks commented on how Spectre was so powerful he "shut off Ganthet, Shazam and Highfather from interfering with him." Well... why didn't he just shut off Captain Marvel or shut off the connection to the power of Shazam in Day of Vengeance? Oh, right... its because he doesn't feel like it, just like he didn't feel like being rid of Parallax. More excuses. My views and logic need no excuses. This is my main problem with looking at Rebirth and Day of Vengeance "your way." Too many inconsistencies and excuses. Therefore, if you counter these points logically, and they make sense with each other, without lame excuses like above, maybe I'll consider actually believing you guys.
Thus, assuming Spectre is the strongest being in the universe, stronger than Ganthet who wielded the power of the Guardians:

1) Why did Spectre say he couldn't get rid of Parallax?
2) He did it before, so why didn't Spectre forego having to 'cook the magic out' of Cap Marvel and just shut off his connection or for that matter, shut off Shazam?
3) Why did the Spectre almost die just by the combined might of a multitude of magical beings?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) If we assume he's not lying or isn't stupid, why didn't Ganthet understand he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax contradict himself?

So far, I think my explanation to all these problems are logical, right? And they don't contradict each other and they are much easier to swallow... well except for the people who apparently refuse to believe DC, :gasps: changes things! Thusly, I challenge you, if you can explain the above coherently, without contradicting your assumption that Spectre is the most powerful being, I will start to see why you assume your views. Have fun.

He could have done it to Shazam, he did it to Black Adam in a Day of Vengeance Tie In.. Just snapped his fingers and the power went off and Black Adam almost died smashing into the ground but was saved by Atom Smasher. The Spectre hasn't almost died yet, and if you've been reading all of the tie ins, Spectre is all across the Universe squashing many of it's most powerful AT THE SAME TIME. We also need to factor in that Spectre is NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE EXISTING ON THE MORTAL PLANE WITHOUT A HOST PER THE WORD OF GOD. Where was Ganthet during Zero Hour? Right, erased with everything else. Where was Spectre? The everpresent Spectre even existed in nothingness, making Hal use all his energy up so he could be defeated, the same thing he did to the Anti-Monitor. If Ganthet was more powerful, why couldn't he override Spectre turning off his powers? Why doesnt or hasnt Spectre snapped his fingers and defeated his opposition? Good storytelling.. or maybe "God works in mysterious ways", either way, Ganthet is of the highest teir in DC for sure, but Spectre is only limited by one will-- The Presence, and one and only one thing can defeat him outside of that, the weapon that pierced the holy veil, The Spear of Destiny.

You guys are averting my lines of premises. So now I'll be more clear.

1) Why didn't Spectre seperate Parallax and Hal earlier?
2) Spectre was brawling with Capt. Marvel himself before the Shadowpact came in, why didn't he just shut off the source from Shazam at that time?
3) Why can a gathering of forces from magic users beat the almighty Spectre, the will of God (the God who is the source of everything)?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) Why did Ganthet not know he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax refer to Spectre and Jordan as mere hosts during their trinity conversation, and also repeat Ganthet's utterances that Ganthet > Spectre right before he infected him?

So far, the answers I've gotten have been: to 1) He didn't feel like it because... God works in mysterious ways 2) He could have shut off his power source, he just decided not to because... God works in mysterious ways... 3) They weren't really beating him, he was just bluffing like Parallax,... oh wait... wait... nvm... you didn't say that... umm... creations can beat that which comes from the Creator because... God works in mysterious ways... 4) It was just to make himself look more threatening,... but he really wasn't, he was just bluffing, because... the writer works in mysterious ways... 5) You can't expect Ganthet to know something like that, just because you're part of the Quintessence you can't be expected to know things like that,... maybe he was bluffing too? Or maybe he works in mysterious ways... 6) Parallax was bluffing to himself the first time... and then bluffing to Ganthet... and the image of him ripping Hal and Spectre apart like shedded skins was part of his image faking too... just to himself... cause nobody was around... cuz... he works in mysterious ways...

I thought I was reading science fiction,... not a mystery novel. Wait... I'm just bluffing... you see... I, too, work in mysterious ways...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You guys are averting my lines of premises. So now I'll be more clear.

1) Why didn't Spectre seperate Parallax and Hal earlier?
2) Spectre was brawling with Capt. Marvel himself before the Shadowpact came in, why didn't he just shut off the source from Shazam at that time?
3) Why can a gathering of forces from magic users beat the almighty Spectre, the will of God (the God who is the source of everything)?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) Why did Ganthet not know he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax refer to Spectre and Jordan as mere hosts during their trinity conversation, and also repeat Ganthet's utterances that Ganthet > Spectre right before he infected him?

So far, the answers I've gotten have been: to 1) He didn't feel like it because... God works in mysterious ways 2) He could have shut off his power source, he just decided not to because... God works in mysterious ways... 3) They weren't really beating him, he was just bluffing like Parallax,... oh wait... wait... nvm... you didn't say that... umm... creations can beat that which comes from the Creator because... God works in mysterious ways... 4) It was just to make himself look more threatening,... but he really wasn't, he was just bluffing, because... the writer works in mysterious ways... 5) You can't expect Ganthet to know something like that, just because you're part of the Quintessence you can't be expected to know things like that,... maybe he was bluffing too? Or maybe he works in mysterious ways... 6) Parallax was bluffing to himself the first time... and then bluffing to Ganthet... and the image of him ripping Hal and Spectre apart like shedded skins was part of his image faking too... just to himself... cause nobody was around... cuz... he works in mysterious ways...

I thought I was reading science fiction,... not a mystery novel. Wait... I'm just bluffing... you see... I, too, work in mysterious ways...

How does Wolverine slice up half the people does? How does Batman take blows from bloodlusted Superman? It's called making a story.. but fact is, it's been proven that he CAN cut Shazam the wizards power granted to his heralds useless, as he turned off Black Adam's in Day of Vengeance tie ins, and when Azmodel turned all of the quintessence's power off when he was Spectre.

If you can get past the sarcasm in my above post, you see I address each of kevdude's explanations using the logic of the "Spectre > Ganthet" supporters and it doesn't really convince me at all. So now, I'll address some of Juntai's problems with my theories:

1) "Why didn't Ganthet override Spectre by turning off his powers?" Because he was facing Parallax and not Spectre. You may counter, "why couldn't he shut Spectre off inside of Parallax and relieve Parallax of the Spectre's power?" Maybe because Parallax wouldn't let him or Ganthet couldn't penetrate Parallax? You see, in my scheme of things, Ganthet isn't more powerful than HalSpectrellax, especially not with the immense fear he's causing worldwide. (Yes worldwide, Hal mentions that all the heroes and even normal citizens are going nuts with fear at the end of #5 and remember, fear powers Parallax)

2) "Where was Ganthet during Zero Hour? Right, erased with everything else. Where was Spectre? The everpresent Spectre even existed in nothingness, making Hal use all his energy up so he could be defeated." Yes, he was erased, he doesn't have the power of the Guardian's... cuz Hal/Parallax at that time stole them completely, remember Emerald Twilight? You say Spectre exists in nothing. He's more powerful than the power of the Guardians! Well... umm... you said yourself Hal is there too. Why is he there? Hal/Parallax back then wielded the power of the Guardian's. You said Spectre had to make Hal burn himself out... what's he burning out that is such a threat? The power of the Guardians. Well, do you see? The power of the Guardian's dwarf's even the Spectre's. After Hal/Parallax had relinquished the Guardian's power, before the reappearance of the new Guardian's,......... "Who solely wielded the power of the Guardians?"

<Please insert answer here> Check and mate.

Edit: I still can't believe you're clinging to the writer just decided not to have Spectre do all things he could have for story's sake. Fine, believe that. That decision, EVEN IF TRUE doesn't explain why Ganthet said the things he did and why Parallax said the things he did and why Parallax was even presented that way in the story. Why can't you just believe, THAT's the way the writers wanted you to see it?!

onebumbgo i gave u the answers myself 😑 , spent 10 mins putting it together o well , read rebirth another 10+ times to understand it all, it takes awhile for everything to sink in, took me awhile too

I read your answers clearly and addressed them. But instead of addressing them in a sarcastic manner, I will address them purely analytically.

Originally posted by kevdude
all ur questions have been answered already... About him shutting off Shazam/Highfather/Ganthets powers and not shutting off CM powers when he was getting help, The Spectre did not KNOW that was going to happen, if he did know he would have stopped it before it actually happened ( just like how he was stopping the young girl from taking his powers away from him again ). CM was not just powered by Shazam and a few others, he was powered by all of the magical beings powered on Earth trying to stop Spectre, its kinda of hard even for The Spectre to stop the power that CM was getting because 1. he was fighting a powerful being as powerful as him. and 2. CM was being protected probably by magic so The Spectre couldn't just take it all away from him.. He would have to fight with him and wait until 1. Spectre won and out lasted CM who was being powered by thousands of other beings or 2. lose the fight and be destroyed and probably taking CM down with him.

1. The Spectre never said he couldn't destroy Parallax, he only said he was trying to separate Hal's soul from Parallax then cast judgement on it for all the evil it has done in Gods Universe... when it finally happened that Parallax from freed from Hal's soul, The Spectre was told by Hal to destroy Parallax, The Spectre then told him he was not his ring and he had interfered enough, God was calling him home, and The Spectre had to leave because it was more important for him to serve God then to serve his own will (destroying Parallax).

2. Answered already on top 🙂.

3. Hes been fighting very powerful magical beings almost no-stop, he fought CM when he was connect with tens of thousands of magical beings, CM had magic all around him protecting him and helping him in his effort to fight The Spectre. Did u even notice The Shadowpact was complaining that they felt like they felt like crap and they wasn't even the ones physicaly fighting him???

4. Probably because Parallax was getting afraid he was going to lose (they was actually stopping him from putting fear into them so they could fight him). So he did what any villain would do and that is intimidate his rivals, he grew so big to try to make them fear him so he could win, this did not work they all worked together as a team and beat him.

5. Ganthet isn't stupid and i don't believe he was meaning to lie, he can be wrong though, anyone can be wrong even him. Parallax even said right before he infected Ganthet something about like "if you Ganthet are so powerful and more powerful then The Spectre then how am i here now and u can't get rid of me??"

6. When did Parallax contradict himself??? do u mean when he told The Spectre and Hal they was nothing but hosts to him??? if u mean that then, he was being WAY to confident in himself that he forced them to be mute and they wouldn't be a problem anymore.

Your answer to #1 does not explain why Spectre didn't just seperate Parallax from Jordan. It explains WHAT happened. It does not give reason as to WHY Spectre did not seperate Parallax from Jordan.

Your answer to #2 completely bypasses my premise. You start answering by saying, "Spectre didn't expect the magicians of the world to start feeding power into Capt. Marvel." That isn't what I asked, I asked why Spectre didn't just shut off his Shazam power stream at the very beginning before Shadowpact came in.

Your answer to #3, while logical,... does not give support to 'Spectre > Ganthet w/ Guardian's power.' I thought you were going to say that Spectre was much too powerful, even for combined might of magicians. But you were smart and didn't fall into this trap. But if anything, it gives support to my assertion that Spectre isn't as powerful as you claim. The guy can be beaten and destroyed. The Guardian's power has always existed. It's never been destroyed, only subverted.

Your answer to #4 is weak. If all that presentation and writer/artist design was all just "intimidation tactics by Ganthellax," where's the proof within the story? Proof like, Parallax having an internal conversation saying, "I'll need to scare them." Or Jordan or Ganthet saying at the end, "He was just bluffing. Good job not being intimidated." There's nothing like this. You have to inject this hidden intention yourself, and that is not very reasonable to do considering the proof against it. The proof against it is; that Ganthet said he was more powerful, Parallax confirmed this, therefore he is more powerful and that is why Ganthellax looks more powerful.

Your answer to #5 subverts my premise again. You answer: a) "Ganthet can be wrong." b) "If Ganthet > Spectre, why didn't Ganthet destroy Parallax before being infected?" First off, with respect to a), there is no direct reference or proof in the story that showed Ganthet to be wrong. He didn't say, "I was wrong." Spectre didn't say, "You were wrong." BUT, Parallax confirmed Ganthet's statement twice! Specthallax said, "The Spectre is nothing but a host to me as you (Hal) are to him (Spectre)." and when he repeated to Ganthet, "You say Spectre is nothing to you? Then Parallax lives. In you!" That last comment more reasonably reads to me, that Parallax is confirming what Ganthet said, and dramatically states he is gonna raise the stakes by taking over a being more powerful than the Spectre!

As per the second part of your response b);... Ganthet couldn't destroy Parallax. That is plain to see. But just by being stronger than Spectre doesn't automatically mean he can destroy Parallax. And so, conversely, just by not being able to destroy Parallax, doesn't mean Ganthet is weaker than Spectre. You forget, NOBODY can destroy Parallax. He is a manifestation of sentient fear throughout the universe. The only thing anybody ever did to Parallax is imprison him. The GL's accomplished this because they had the rings as a conduit to send Parallax back into the Power Battery and fought him by embracing their worst fear and conquering it within themselves.

Your answer to #6 shows some confusion to my question. You clearly ask, "When did Parallax contradict himself? Understand, I DON'T think he contradicted himself. But you, with your premise that 'Parallax < Spectre' do believe that. You said it yourself, Parallax is mocking Ganthet's words. He doesn't really believe that the two of them are stronger than Spectre. But if Parallax understands that, why would he refer to Spectre as a mere host in their trinity conversation? Why did the artist render Parallax's return in #3 as ripping Spectre and Jordan as mere husks? That is the contradiction. But it is only a contradiction because of the way you think, not the way I think. Your last bit at the end of your answer was that "He was being overconfident or trying to bluff them." Come on... that is the same kind of weak answer to #4. The only one Parallax was overconfident about was Hal. Nothing in the story points to Parallax ever underestimating the Spectre or intentionally bluffing because of desperation. In fact, there is evidence in the form of actual conversation against this which I just cited above.

Now, if you still disagree with this, that is just too bad. Like I said, I gave you the oppurtunity to convince me. The weak answers above do not convince me. If you want me to take one last shot at convincing you, I'll do it by contrasting how everything in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance makes much more sense if "Ganthet > Spectre." and literally layer that analysis on top of yours and show which one is stronger. Not once, have you shown any actual words, conversation, admission of mistakes within those pages that are in direct contradiction to my premises. Again, your view is colored going into the books. So was mine! But act like you don't know anything and take it at its face value! Don't inject hidden intentions into Parallax, Ganthet or Spectre if there's no evidence for them. In fact, there's evidence against these 'hidden intentions.'

Edit: Can you at least admit, there aren't any glaring holes or inconsistencies in my responses to you? And can you at least admit, that my version of what happened in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance makes sense and has no glaring holes or inconsistencies?

Originally posted by King KAM
gs, the fact that you like phoenix saddens me,your a brova.....cant u get a more hip character?

So basically i shouldnt like Phoenix because in your eyes she aint hip? 😕

Come on now son how superficial is that? 😉

I like phoenix not because of how powerful she is but because of the hidden depths to the character, all of the symbology and religious parallels the writers have linked to the concept which when explored provide a deeper understanding of the character and its role. Your average hero just doesnt have as many layers to them. Thats why i like phoenix. If you dont like her thats your loss, no need to look down on me. You can stick with your spidermans and wolverines thats your choice.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I like phoenix not because of how powerful she is but because of the hidden depths to the character, all of the symbology and religious parallels the writers have linked to the concept which when explored provide a deeper understanding of the character and its role. Your average hero just doesnt have as many layers to them. Thats why i like phoenix. If you dont like her thats your loss, no need to look down on me. You can stick with your spidermans and wolverines thats your choice.
If you agree Phoenix is not more interesting because she is more powerful, then the only thing interesting about Phoenix is that she gave up the man she loves because of her role. In other words, she broke up with him because of her job.

Jean Grey was a lot more layered than that. Such power in the form of a young lady just goes to show that appearances are decieving. It also shows the potency of mind over matter, mental over physical. Her heroism and compassion in the face of bigotry and inhumanity was a lot more interesting than, "My job forced me to leave my man!" She was a voice for reason more than 'force beats everything.' But even then, if it came down to force she could hold her own. Back then, she was pained with Scott and his aloofness and his affairs and her own feelings with Logan.

Now, she's nothing but an all-powerful entity who chose to protect the universe over her love for a man. It sounds poetic, but its all reverse. By her very nature she has to give up Scott. So there's no real decision to make. And the reason that is so much more disinteresting is that apparently, Phoenix force is all Jean really was the whole time. Everything she did as Jean was basically a ruse or false or it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things compared to her role as Phoenix. In that case, her love for Scott didn't really matter either. Therefore, giving up on Scott wasn't much of a sacrifice in the end. Hopefully a smart writer will come along and undo all this crap in the near future. I'll buy a copy for myself and send one to Claremont to show him how sh1t needs to be done.

Edit: I admit, there are two other things that makes Phoenix interesting. The whole Phoenix motif derived from Egyptian myth is kinda cool. And her costume is one of the best designed ever. Still, take the humanity and drama out of the character and she's just a pretty thing to look at.

2nd Edit: Bah. In the end that's my opinion. And it doesn't matter too much as to whether people should be fans or not. So I'll just shut my Claremont-hating piehole. Still... 'Ganthet > Spectre!' I'll take on all challengers to that, cause its a matter of comic book fact vs opinion! Yaaaarrrrrr!!!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I like phoenix not because of how powerful she is but because of the hidden depths to the character, all of the symbology and religious parallels the writers have linked to the concept which when explored provide a deeper understanding of the character and its role. Your average hero just doesnt have as many layers to them.

Really? I actually dislike phoenix because she's the comic equivelant of a 14 year old playing quake with a wall hack and an aim bot shouting "WTF N00B F33R MI SK8LLZ!!"

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you agree Phoenix is not more interesting because she is more powerful, then the only thing interesting about Phoenix is that she gave up the man she loves because of her role. In other words, she broke up with him because of her job.

Jean Grey was a lot more layered than that. Such power in the form of a young lady just goes to show that appearances are decieving. It also shows the potency of mind over matter, mental over physical. Her heroism and compassion in the face of bigotry and inhumanity was a lot more interesting than, "My job forced me to leave my man!" She was a voice for reason more than 'force beats everything.' But even then, if it came down to force she could hold her own. Back then, she was pained with Scott and his aloofness and his affairs and her own feelings with Logan.

Now, she's nothing but an all-powerful entity who chose to protect the universe over her love for a man. It sounds poetic, but its all reverse. By her very nature she has to give up Scott. What sacrifice is there? And the reason that is so much more disinteresting is that apparently, Phoenix force is all Jean really was the whole time. Everything she did as Jean was basically a ruse or false or it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things compared to her role as Phoenix. In that case, her love for Scott didn't really matter either. Therefore, giving up on Scott wasn't much of a sacrifice in the end. Hopefully a smart writer will come along and undo all this crap in the near future. I'll buy a copy for myself and send one to Claremont to show him how sh1t needs to be done.

Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it. However i disagree. Jean has always been this all powerful entity. Thats been the case since the 80's (thanks to the classic xmen backstories), its not some new thing which has suddenly been dropped on us. Fans just took a superficial look on the whole phoenix situation instead of taking a closer look at just what the writers had laid out for us.

Jean never chose to do anything. It was her role in creation, she couldnt avoid it. She had denied it for so long, even rejected it in the past, (one need only look at the Madelyne Pryor situation) but at the end of the day it was who she was. She held on to her Jean Grey role for so long out of love for her friends and family but at the end of the day she was forced by those on high to abandon Jean Grey and to answer a higher calling. It certainly wasnt her choice.

Just think, if Jean has always been Phoenix how many other times (perhaps in previous universes) has she been forced to give up a normal life in favour of her role, in favour of the creation cycle so that big bang after big bang generations upon generations might live whilst she herself was prevented from truly doing so, in a human sense at least. You're right in the big scheme of things her love for Cyclops didnt matter but it certainly meant something to her on a personal level. Its that love which made her save the 616 universe at the end of New Xmen. Even if she couldnt truly live she was sure as hell going to make sure her friends and family did. Even if that meant Cyclops was to be with Emma for the rest of his life. Jean once said that creation needs a human touch. It seems life in normal reality serves as a school for Phoenix. Phoenixes life as Jean Grey was no ruse, it helped shape her into the character she is. At the end of the day arent the loves and sacrifices of all mortals insignificant when you consider the bigger picture.

You were probably reading my posts before I started editing. But yeah, I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion too. But if I ever saw Claremont, I will probably knee him in the balls:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[b]Edit: I admit, there are two other things that makes Phoenix interesting. The whole Phoenix motif derived from Egyptian myth is kinda cool. And her costume is one of the best designed ever. Still, take the humanity and drama out of the character and she's just a pretty thing to look at.

2nd Edit: Bah. In the end that's my opinion. And it doesn't matter too much as to whether people should be fans or not. So I'll just shut my Claremont-hating piehole. Still... 'Ganthet > Spectre!' I'll take on all challengers to that, cause its a matter of comic book fact vs opinion! Yaaaarrrrrr!!!! [/B]

I just like how a cosmic entity on phoenixs scale can be touched so much by life as a human. How life as a human is deemed so important for Phoenix to be able to fulfill its creation role. Its sad that she goes to creation to learn, but gets emotionally attached yet she is forced to leave by the higher powers and that perhaps that happens continually throughout her existence. Thats a sad fate despite all the benefits being phoenix brings with it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So basically i shouldnt like Phoenix because in your eyes she aint hip? 😕

Come on now son how superficial is that? 😉

I like phoenix not because of how powerful she is but because of the hidden depths to the character, all of the symbology and religious parallels the writers have linked to the concept which when explored provide a deeper understanding of the character and its role. Your average hero just doesnt have as many layers to them. Thats why i like phoenix. If you dont like her thats your loss, no need to look down on me. You can stick with your spidermans and wolverines thats your choice.


suuuuuuree.....

Originally posted by King KAM
suuuuuuree.....

Thats mature 😮 😂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats mature 😮 😂

poop

Originally posted by King KAM
poop

You sure that photo in the other forum is of you? lol Your posts just dont seem to fit in with that pic. How old are you?

18, and im positive its me, i just feel like bein an ass right now.

Originally posted by King KAM
18, and im positive its me, i just feel like bein an ass right now.

You're into fashion arent you? Do you wanna go on to do something fashion related?