phoenix and women

Endsong sorted out the situation once and for all. It began by making out that Phoenix was indeed a seperate entity as per the 86 retcon but by the end it clarified that Jean and Phoenix are one dark phoenix and the rampant phoenix of endsong were merely shards of Jeans Phoenix consciousness. Her phoenix self. Jean is just a shell where Phoenix lives. The body which Phoenix manifests itself within creation to exact its phoenix work, to burn away what doesnt work. To keep the creation cycle going, big bang after big bang. In all creation Phoenix is the only constant, the abstracts and LT are surpassed and replaced by evolution during the creation cycle however phoenix remains keeping this process going on forever. "Downloading " each dying universe at the end of creation into the white hot room before sparking off creation anew. (Refer to X-men Forever and New X-men 154)

Here are the scans which clarify the phoenix situation:

Originally posted by Creshosk
The tool chest has to be opened in order for the hammer to be taken out. 🙂

Indeed 😉

You see now Disappear?

Watch carefully who you deem fanboys. It could just be (as was the case here) that you're missing something that they have discovered about the character. Make sure youre clued up before you you make judgements. Ignorance isnt always bliss.

no need to sling preemptive counterattacks. i'm simply saying that various ways to interpret that whole series have been brought up, and there are equally valid arguments against what you're saying.

Originally posted by Disappear
no need to sling preemptive counterattacks. i'm simply saying that various ways to interpret that whole series have been brought up, and there are equally valid arguments against what you're saying.

Its so true 🙂

Jumpy to GalacticStorm for that comic scan! 💃

Originally posted by Disappear
no need to sling preemptive counterattacks. i'm simply saying that various ways to interpret that whole series have been brought up, and there are equally valid arguments against what you're saying.

Well i dont usually take such a tone with posters but your fanboy comment gave me reason to. A comment which as we've found arose from ignorance on the subject. No offence intended its just obviously true.

Your counter argument was that phoenix has existed for so long as a seperate entity and also that its danced from host to host. None of that really matters, none of it is valid in the slightest in light of a retcon. A retcon writes over what happened before and you just have to accept what it entails as current continuity. Its pointless looking back and arguing what you are when they are all factors from the retcon period which has now been scrapped.

Just like with the Beyonder back in Secret Wars he was presented as an omnipotent being, the greatest power in the multiverse. He humbled LT and the abstracts, even the Celestials. Later on some writers deemed him too powerful and they imposed a retcon. He was written off as half of a cosmic cube, his powers and all previous feats were illusionary and all the big cosmic powers were just playing along for some unkown reason. Fans just had to accept that. Because it was retcon which meant all previous ideas relating to Beyonder were scrapped in favour of the new ones.

Originally in 1980 Jean literally was Phoenix. It was her ultimate potential as a psi. It was Jean as part of her mutation becoming one with creation. She chose the name, the bird was just her power signature.

In 86 after the dp saga the writers for X-factor wanted her for the team as she was popular therefore the retcon came into play which made phoenix a seperate entity. A new origin for it was born involving Feron. Phoenix became a sentient nexus for all psychic energy in existence.

After 16 years of this retcon it was scrapped in 2002 through New X-men and Endsong. Phoenix and Jean are one. There are others who can reach this point of ultimate mutation (Quentin Quire for example) however she is the closest thing it has to a human form. She has a special relationship with this force which makes her the White Phoenix of Crown.

This retcon has been in place now for just under 3 years. After 16 years of the previous phoenix origin in place as continuity its understandable why fans may find it hard to adjust or might not want to acknowledge it, but its something we must deal with and accept.

Originally posted by X-Woman
Jumpy to GalacticStorm for that comic scan! 💃

Thank you. 🙂

Hey X-woman you ive in Houston?!! Have you ever met/seen Beyonce? That woman is destined to be my wife!! lol

do you have an account at ezboard? if not, i can rummage up one of my old ones for you to use. that's something of a key point to seeing the link i'm about to post.

http://p089.ezboard.com/fuxnfrm15.showMessage?topicID=836.topic

that's a thread that first started much like this one, asking about omega mutants and who could handle the phoenix force, and whatnot, and ended in an argument about the nature of the phoenix. monolith, one of the foremost authorities on the board and someone with an incredible memory for every detail of everything ever, argues the point that no retcon is made in endsong, and that there are various ways to interpret the events. in a private message between he and i, i asked "do you remember what your arguments against endsong's supposed change to the status quo were?" he replied by sending the above link, and saying "Bottom line, though, what most people chose to ignore is that the Phoenix-Jean's mind was with Madelyne for years while Jean herself was running around independently. Until something explains THAT, all other "arguments" are moot."

i, personally, couldn't care less about the phoenix, and am rather glad she's retired to the "white hot room" for the remainder of (hopefully) eternity. she's been too complicated, too "controversial" a topic between fanboys and anyone else, and rather inconsequential as of late. my feelings on the topic reflect monolith's, considering he filled in gaps i was unaware of after reading endsong. yeah, i actually read it. so much for ignorance, huh?

lemme know if you need a username to get onto ezboard. i suppose you could make one of your own, if you don't already have one, but i can always dig one up to spare.

and whirly, i have absolutely no idea whose opinion you're supporting.

Originally posted by Disappear
do you have an account at ezboard? if not, i can rummage up one of my old ones for you to use. that's something of a key point to seeing the link i'm about to post.

http://p089.ezboard.com/fuxnfrm15.showMessage?topicID=836.topic

that's a thread that first started much like this one, asking about omega mutants and who could handle the phoenix force, and whatnot, and ended in an argument about the nature of the phoenix. monolith, one of the foremost authorities on the board and someone with an incredible memory for every detail of everything ever, argues the point that no retcon is made in endsong, and that there are various ways to interpret the events. in a private message between he and i, i asked "do you remember what your arguments against endsong's supposed change to the status quo were?" he replied by sending the above link, and saying "Bottom line, though, what most people chose to ignore is that the Phoenix-Jean's mind was with Madelyne for years while Jean herself was running around independently. Until something explains THAT, all other "arguments" are moot."

i, personally, couldn't care less about the phoenix, and am rather glad she's retired to the "white hot room" for the remainder of (hopefully) eternity. she's been too complicated, too "controversial" a topic between fanboys and anyone else, and rather inconsequential as of late. my feelings on the topic reflect monolith's, considering he filled in gaps i was unaware of after reading endsong. yeah, i actually read it. so much for ignorance, huh?

lemme know if you need a username to get onto ezboard. i suppose you could make one of your own, if you don't already have one, but i can always dig one up to spare.

and whirly, i have absolutely no idea whose opinion you're supporting.

When a retcon occurs fans may not like it but what they must do is accept it. Back to the Beyonder example. Pre retcon he was humbling Galactus, the abstracts and LT, then all of a sudden he was retconned into an incomplete, confused cosmic cube. That didnt make sense because at such a power level he wouldnt have had the power to do what he had done previously and even bearing the retcon in mind the illusionary power of a cube are only planetary in scale so it wouldnt be able to affect the multiverse like it did. Despite all of those holes a retcon was imposed therefore we as the comic book readers not writers had to like it or lump it.

As for the Madelyne thing Jean Grey is the closest thing Phoenix has to a human form they are literally one. Jean is basically just a shell for Phoenix, how it manifests on the physical plane when phoenix work needs to be carried out in creation. There are other beings who can house or wield this creation power however it is Jean who has a special affinity with the power, she is its human form and that is why she is the White Phoenix of Crown. Jean is the only true avatar (direct manifestation on the physical plane) others such as Rachel and Giraud were merely hosts for the power. They wielded shards of Jeans phoenix essence. A part of Phoenix carved from Jeans soul. I have previously shown you the picture of Rachel asking to speak to the true form of phoenix and the Jean golden woman appearred before her. What resided with Madelyne was a shard of Jeans phoenix self similar to the shard which was running rampant in Endsong. Jean was still walking around while the shard went around posessing people in Endsong yet it was made clear that Jean and Phoenix were very much one and the same and this thing that was being presented as a return of Dark Phoenix was nothing more than a shard of Jean which had been fragmented from her and needed to join back with her in the white hot room. Endsong cleared this all up and did a good job of doing it.

that's your perspective from reading it. it ignores other perspectives, such as the one monolith presents in the thread i provided. did you get to read it? do you need an ezboard name? i've heard your side of the argument and your beliefs as to what endsong was trying to say, more than once. the thread provided has the most clearly detailed version of my own opinion, and that of numerous others, which is in contrast to yours. and our opinion doesn't conflict with any existing marvel truths, such as the 86 retcon. there's really nothing in endsong that explicitly undoes the retcon, unless that's how you choose to look at it. there are other sensical ways to look at it that still comply with the retcon, and don't "finally appease" the fanboy wetdream of jean being the phoenix.

Originally posted by Disappear
that's your perspective from reading it. it ignores other perspectives, such as the one monolith presents in the thread i provided. did you get to read it? do you need an ezboard name? i've heard your side of the argument and your beliefs as to what endsong was trying to say, more than once. the thread provided has the most clearly detailed version of my own opinion, and that of numerous others, which is in contrast to yours. and our opinion doesn't conflict with any existing marvel truths, such as the 86 retcon. there's really nothing in endsong that explicitly undoes the retcon, unless that's how you choose to look at it. there are other sensical ways to look at it that still comply with the retcon, and don't "finally appease" the fanboy wetdream of jean being the phoenix.

Your referral of those who share that view point as fanboys is what made me take that tone with you in the first place and the fact that you now know that i personally share that view yet are still being so derogatory marks you as disrespectful, yet you were whining about my attack on your competence? 🙄

Have some manners Disappear theres no need for that. I will read this thread and i will post an answer to any queries here within the hour. 😉

I tried registering yesterday but i havent received an e-mail to validate my account so if the offer still stands can you PM your spare account name and password/ Also make sure you stick around because i intend to address your queries tonight and would appreciate a response if youre not too busy.

i dont mean fanboy in a derogatory sense, regardless of how it was taken. but, truth be told, there have been phoenix fanboys and fangirls trying to justify their "wetdream," a metaphoric term for their greatest fantasy, of jean BEING the phoenix long before endsong came out. and they've done a bad job, generally. your argument is actually one of few i can respect, considering it has some basis. it just seems to be oriented toward finding the goal of jean being the phoenix, as opposed to objectively looking at the situation and what it could represent. your interpretation of endsong is valid in some cases, and if you believe what you believe, then it makes sense, despite certain evidences to the contrary. but there are other ways to look at it that don't mess with continuity, and don't re-retcon the phoenix-jean debacle.

i'll go dig up an account for ya... i've got at least a half dozen to spare.

also, another PM quote from monolith, after i posed the "maddie's phoenix essence was one of jean's scattered pieces" question to him. "That explanation wouldn't fit with any of the established knowledge we have about how Jean came back and Madelyne came to be. At best, it would be another "backwards logic" situation, where someone uses a piece of canon that could mean many things as proof of their Jean-Phoenix theory."

Originally posted by Disappear
that's your perspective from reading it. it ignores other perspectives, such as the one monolith presents in the thread i provided. did you get to read it? do you need an ezboard name? i've heard your side of the argument and your beliefs as to what endsong was trying to say, more than once. the thread provided has the most clearly detailed version of my own opinion, and that of numerous others, which is in contrast to yours. and our opinion doesn't conflict with any existing marvel truths, such as the 86 retcon. there's really nothing in endsong that explicitly undoes the retcon, unless that's how you choose to look at it. there are other sensical ways to look at it that still comply with the retcon, and don't "finally appease" the fanboy wetdream of jean being the phoenix.

The 86 retcon made Jean and Phoenix two very seperate entities. Jean was merely posessed by the Phoenix which was a cosmic entity which was the nexus of all psionic energy to have ever existed, that exists and will exist. This phoenix also had nothing whatsoever to do with the white hot room which was a kaballah influenced aspect of original phoenix concept. Phoenix was just sentient psionic energy which posessed beings for its own ends amplifying their abilities whilst gaining pleasure from the union with its host.

New X-men made Phoenix the ultimate mutation a state certain beings with the right genetics could reach. (Phoenix Corps in issue 154) Phoenix was no longer a seperate entity but the ultimate expression of Jeans mutation. In New X-men Jean refers to the Dark Phoenix uniform as her old costume. Beast gained Phoenixs power of telekinetic godhood (total telekinetic control over all matter/energy down to a sub atomic level) via Jeans blood. Jean was literally Phoenix. The firebird was returned to being just an energy signature. Thats part of the retcon the power of phoenix being transferrable via Jeans blood.

In New X-men 128 Jean stated " I am born and consumed in blood, flame and sacrifice, and return, always coming back." Later on New X-men had Jean reborn from a phoenix egg in issue 151. This served to integrate the egg/cocoon into Jeans life cycle meaning that Jean was indeed Dark Phoenix. Again theres your retcon for you.

In New Xmen 151 Jean was reborn as the golden woman, the same form which appeared before Jean on the space shuttle therefore supporting Chris Claremonts original idea behind his creation that Jean was indeed Phoenix. This is what the golden woman said to her anyway in her first appearance to Jean:

“-My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.
-Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"
-You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality.You are human.I am of creation.”

This same golden woman appeared before Rachel when Rachel asked Phoenix to show its true form.

In Endsong it is clearly stated that Jean and Phoenix are one and the same. Phoenix was attacked by the Shi'Ar in the first issue of Endsong fragmenting its very being. The entity all the previews were presenting as a return of Dark Phoenix, the being that was going around posessing people was clearly stated in Endsong to be a fragment of Jeans being. It doesnt get much clearer than that:

Originally posted by Disappear
i dont mean fanboy in a derogatory sense, regardless of how it was taken. but, truth be told, there have been phoenix fanboys and fangirls trying to justify their "wetdream," a metaphoric term for their greatest fantasy, of jean BEING the phoenix long before endsong came out. and they've done a bad job, generally. your argument is actually one of few i can respect, considering it has some basis. it just seems to be oriented toward finding the goal of jean being the phoenix, as opposed to objectively looking at the situation and what it could represent. your interpretation of endsong is valid in some cases, and if you believe what you believe, then it makes sense, despite certain evidences to the contrary. but there are other ways to look at it that don't mess with continuity, and don't re-retcon the phoenix-jean debacle.

i'll go dig up an account for ya... i've got at least a half dozen to spare.

also, another PM quote from monolith, after i posed the "maddie's phoenix essence was one of jean's scattered pieces" question to him. "That explanation wouldn't fit with any of the established knowledge we have about how Jean came back and Madelyne came to be. At best, it would be another "backwards logic" situation, where someone uses a piece of canon that could mean many things as proof of their Jean-Phoenix theory."

Well as you meant no offence by it everythings cool. As you can see by reading my latest post there are some things introduced by both New X-men and Endsong which directly conflict with the ideas the 86 retcon brought in about Phoenix. There is no doubt that a retcon took place.

As the comic explicitly states the Phoenix entity from Endsong was a fragment of Jean. Its explicitly stated in the comic theres no arguing with it.

I read that thread on the uncanny forums and Monolith has one of the most convoluted interpretations of phoenix i have ever come across. Either way his view doesnt stand up well to all of the factors ive detailed from both New X-men and Endsong which contradict the ideas behind the 86 retcon and therefore scrap it.Tell him to make a KMC account.

his ideas are based entirely around the idea that the retcon has not been undone, something which cannot be proven to have happened and which no writer or editor has out-and-out said was their goal. they're explanations which differ from your own, yes, but they stick entirely to fact-based assumptions, as opposed to assumptions toward a technically impossible end (jean being the phoenix.) and, considering the man makes it his business to know the facts of just about every marvel title and character, i doubt he's speaking out of any anti-jean sentiment, and i doubt he's got the time to make a name over here. i'll pose it to him, but you realize the argument will end exactly the same way it did over there, yes? you'll say it has, and cite new x-men and the last issue of endsong. he'll say it hasn't, and cite every issue since the 86 retcon, as well as the first issues of endsong, and it'll end in him getting upset that you continue to drive an unproven fact home as if it were marvel truth... still, i'll pose it to him.

and, to counter your points made in that last scan-heavy thread, jean possessed telekinesis at an incredible level during the lengthy time in which the phoenix was clearly stated as its own entity. it's been in her genetics since day one, even in the original issues where her telepathy was being held behind mental blocks. if beast found a way to graft jean's genetic ability for telekinesis into him, much in the way sinister can graft other genetic structures into him, there's still no definitive proof that he's harboring any phoenix-based powers. his mind is incredible advanced, more so than jean's, and it's completely possible that he's either being boastful or found new ways to employ the telekinesis. nothing there definitively proves a jean-phoenix retcon.

jean adopted the personality and memories of the phoenix-jean (dark phoenix) after the phoenix returned to the cosmos, or went through time to rachel (whatever it decided to do.) she believes that that is a part of her past, when all continuity states that it is not, and even explains that she only received that part of her memories after the whole dark phoenix incident. that doesn't prove anything, nor retcon the fact that while the phoenix was parading around on the moon, jean was in a healing cocoon back on earth, completely inactive. that still proves nothing toward a retcon.

jean's comment about the cocoon and being born again all the time doesn't make her the phoenix either. it doesn't change the fact that they were two separate entities the first time it happened, and it could be taken as jean simply stating that she and the phoenix force are tied together, not one and the same. jean's made reference to dying and being reborn countless times prior to this. that doesn't serve as a retcon either, nor does it make the healing cocoon part of her life. it's still, using all plausible continuity, something the phoenix force erects around jean to heal her dying body.

the conversation with the golden woman says nothing of being jean grey, but rather continues the already-proven idea that the phoenix adopted jean as its host in order to experience sensations such as emotion and desire. it doesnt say "i feel this because i am you" in any sense, and it doesnt at all undo the idea that the phoenix possesses a human host in order to experience heightened levels of awareness (dating back to feron, several hundred years prior to the original jean/phoenix incident.)

and endsong can be taken many ways, which have already been explained. there's still nothing definitive that says the retcon has been undone.