every time i'm done, they always find a way to draw me back...
new x-men does not, in any way, aid or abbet the 'jean is phoenix' idea. the term's "ultimate mutation" and "telekinetic godhood" aren't used in the context you imply. beast/sublime is referring to a purple liquid, "phoenix blood," as the ultimate mutation. telekinetic godhood in a jar. considering the known facts that a) human blood is never purple and b) cosmic entities have no blood, (and presuming with good reason that "your heart's blood," as said by the phoenix force to jean, is not something so easily extractable that beast/sublime could just sup some out of jean,) there are implications drawn. and they don't add up to jean being the phoenix.
the basis for both implications is as follows: sublime, a man proven to have a pention for gene-splicing (see any of the crawlers, particularly the one possessing multiple man traits [as his powers exceeded those of the genetics from which they were derived]) and for a sense of drama (telling apollyon/fantomex that he'd prefer the 'irony' of jean destroying the x-men over the assurance of a phoenix grafted apollyon doing the work for him,) altered a strand of jean's genetic material and processed it into a form that would allow it to meld into his body as if they were his own genes.
the first implication would be that in working with jean's DNA, sublime was able to dramatically increase her power levels to what he calls 'telekinetic godhood,' which are feats even a mutant such as exodus would be able to perform. evidence that this is possible comes from the fact that the crawler with multiple man traits was able (according to EVA) to duplicate himself into hundreds of crawlers within a matter of minutes. jamie madrox, of the six-one-six universe, has a known limit of forty, though his genetics have been altered in similar ways by apocalypse (in the AoA) to create countless duplicates. the assumption that the same is possible for jean, another mutant, is by no means unfounded.
the second assumption is that there was a genetic trait of jean's (one that's mentioned many times in post-86 issues,) that allows her to access the phoenix force. if sublime was able to duplicate this process in the body of the beast, opening his "crown chakra" (as it was referred to by cassandra nova and the shi'ar) to accept the phoenix's link, he would gain powers comparable to any of the members of the phoenix corps. this process by no means 'evolves' beast to the "ultimate mutation," but rather slightly alters his genetics to open a unique psionic frequency.
aside from the context of the phoenix powers in the comic(s) themselves (your arguments really only hinged around 154,) the phoenix is referred to both as a "cosmic power source" and a separate "consciousness" than jean's own. this last point is further expanded upon during the phoenix corps scenes, where the phoenix force itself instructs jean on how to use its powers (which she borrows just like any of the others in the corps) to repair a dying universe.
you'll also note that jean remains depowered until beast begins talking about remaking god in their image, and taking over all of creation. considering that's the phoenix force's "turf," it makes sense that the phoenix powers tapped by beast's newly opened chakra would leave him and return to their primary host. this shows that the phoenix force operates as a separate entity, outside of both jean and beast, and is not simply a mutation both shared. it chose its host when it felt justice needed to be served. i don't think it gets any clearer than that.
the "phoenix egg" isn't proof either, considering the phoenix force encased a dead/dying jean in one before while operating separately from her. why wouldn't it do the same thing again?
as for endsong, the major "phoenix entities" represented are the phoenix force, in the form of the 'dark phoenix,' and jean grey. it's truly arguable whether or not the dark phoenix actually represents the phoenix force at all, or simply a piece of jean. it'd be a hard day's work to say distinctively that it's the phoenix force itself, as opposed to being a separate chunk of jean gone missing when she died (which is fully possible, considering jean's memory was infused with that of the phoenix force, making her remember the PF's time as dark phoenix as if it was her own memory.) different implications from the series arise with the different views.
if the phoenix force is truly representing its entire majesty in the form of 'dark phoenix,' most of your logic (from the last issue) can clearly be interpreted as saying that jean and the phoenix force are one and the same (despite the series' previous issues enforcing that they're not.) the flaw in this logic comes from the fact that, after the "big reveal" at which time jean says that they are one, the phoenix force still refers to them as separate entities. "this longing i feel...belongs to YOU." would not a piece of jean herself say, at least, "us"? if the force was still a rogue agent, it would make sense to make clear distinction between itself and its other parts (see any of multiple man's 'rogue dupe' instances for an example.) but this part, now integrating itself willingly, and coming to terms with its existence, still makes the distinction between itself and jean. so, either that discredits the idea that the 'dark phoenix' was the phoenix force to begin with, or it further proves the idea that the phoenix force is a separate being than its avatar, even in its own speech. how this affects the "i am you" line is somewhat vague, but it could easily imply a metaphysical meaning to jean's words, something nuanced that jean would explain later in the white hot room.
if we assume that, instead of the phoenix force itself, this representation of jean is actually the portion of her memory that includes the time the phoenix force "possessed" jean (up to and including her dark phoenix days,) that would easily clear up both the "i am you" line and the "belongs to you," as they'd be separate aspects of the same being, yet embodying wholly different emotions and experiences. jean's memory does include what the phoenix force did during its time in a faux-jean's body, so it would make sense that one of the pieces that flew in the trillions of directions embodied this.
the idea that the soul is limitless, and thus, that any portion of the soul is able to function as a whole (infinity divided by anything is still infinity) would account for the reappearance of the two jeans at once. both could be tapping the "cosmic power source" to the same extent, though 'jean' clearly showed more finesse in wielding the power (which could be attributed to the reintegration of the 'pieces' that had returned to the white hot room.) this would simply make the end of endsong a reintegration of another part, though clearly a more dominant personality aspect of the 'whole' jean, both of whom referred to themselves as phoenix in relation to a codename, not implying that they themselves were the phoenix force. and, in this, all "verbal slips" in which one character was referred to as jean or phoenix become immaterial in the argument that such examples imply jean and phoenix are one.
there. expanded versions of the various perspectives that can be taken in relation to endsong, besides jumping to the conclusion that jean is the phoenix force. both arguments consider canon history according to what is known (the 86 retcon,) and neither end up with jean being the phoenix. NEITHER argument considers the opinion or intent of chris claremont, who had no hand in the endsong series to begin with. if that doesn't open your eyes to the fact that there may just be possibilities besides what you've been hoping for, nothing will...
Originally posted by Disappear
every time i'm done, they always find a way to draw me back...new x-men does not, in any way, aid or abbet the 'jean is phoenix' idea. the term's "ultimate mutation" and "telekinetic godhood" aren't used in the context you imply. beast/sublime is referring to a purple liquid, "phoenix blood," as the ultimate mutation. telekinetic godhood in a jar. considering the known facts that a) human blood is never purple and b) cosmic entities have no blood, (and presuming with good reason that "your heart's blood," as said by the phoenix force to jean, is not something so easily extractable that beast/sublime could just sup some out of jean,) there are implications drawn. and they don't add up to jean being the phoenix.
the basis for both implications is as follows: sublime, a man proven to have a pention for gene-splicing (see any of the crawlers, particularly the one possessing multiple man traits [as his powers exceeded those of the genetics from which they were derived]) and for a sense of drama (telling apollyon/fantomex that he'd prefer the 'irony' of jean destroying the x-men over the assurance of a phoenix grafted apollyon doing the work for him,) altered a strand of jean's genetic material and processed it into a form that would allow it to meld into his body as if they were his own genes.
the first implication would be that in working with jean's DNA, sublime was able to dramatically increase her power levels to what he calls 'telekinetic godhood,' which are feats even a mutant such as exodus would be able to perform. evidence that this is possible comes from the fact that the crawler with multiple man traits was able (according to EVA) to duplicate himself into hundreds of crawlers within a matter of minutes. jamie madrox, of the six-one-six universe, has a known limit of forty, though his genetics have been altered in similar ways by apocalypse (in the AoA) to create countless duplicates. the assumption that the same is possible for jean, another mutant, is by no means unfounded.
the second assumption is that there was a genetic trait of jean's (one that's mentioned many times in post-86 issues,) that allows her to access the phoenix force. if sublime was able to duplicate this process in the body of the beast, opening his "crown chakra" (as it was referred to by cassandra nova and the shi'ar) to accept the phoenix's link, he would gain powers comparable to any of the members of the phoenix corps. this process by no means 'evolves' beast to the "ultimate mutation," but rather slightly alters his genetics to open a unique psionic frequency.
aside from the context of the phoenix powers in the comic(s) themselves (your arguments really only hinged around 154,) the phoenix is referred to both as a "cosmic power source" and a separate "consciousness" than jean's own. this last point is further expanded upon during the phoenix corps scenes, where the phoenix force itself instructs jean on how to use its powers (which she borrows just like any of the others in the corps) to repair a dying universe.
you'll also note that jean remains depowered until beast begins talking about remaking god in their image, and taking over all of creation. considering that's the phoenix force's "turf," it makes sense that the phoenix powers tapped by beast's newly opened chakra would leave him and return to their primary host. this shows that the phoenix force operates as a separate entity, outside of both jean and beast, and is not simply a mutation both shared. it chose its host when it felt justice needed to be served. i don't think it gets any clearer than that.
the "phoenix egg" isn't proof either, considering the phoenix force encased a dead/dying jean in one before while operating separately from her. why wouldn't it do the same thing again?
as for endsong, the major "phoenix entities" represented are the phoenix force, in the form of the 'dark phoenix,' and jean grey. it's truly arguable whether or not the dark phoenix actually represents the phoenix force at all, or simply a piece of jean. it'd be a hard day's work to say distinctively that it's the phoenix force itself, as opposed to being a separate chunk of jean gone missing when she died (which is fully possible, considering jean's memory was infused with that of the phoenix force, making her remember the PF's time as dark phoenix as if it was her own memory.) different implications from the series arise with the different views.
if the phoenix force is truly representing its entire majesty in the form of 'dark phoenix,' most of your logic (from the last issue) can clearly be interpreted as saying that jean and the phoenix force are one and the same (despite the series' previous issues enforcing that they're not.) the flaw in this logic comes from the fact that, after the "big reveal" at which time jean says that they are one, the phoenix force still refers to them as separate entities. "this longing i feel...belongs to YOU." would not a piece of jean herself say, at least, "us"? if the force was still a rogue agent, it would make sense to make clear distinction between itself and its other parts (see any of multiple man's 'rogue dupe' instances for an example.) but this part, now integrating itself willingly, and coming to terms with its existence, still makes the distinction between itself and jean. so, either that discredits the idea that the 'dark phoenix' was the phoenix force to begin with, or it further proves the idea that the phoenix force is a separate being than its avatar, even in its own speech. how this affects the "i am you" line is somewhat vague, but it could easily imply a metaphysical meaning to jean's words, something nuanced that jean would explain later in the white hot room.
if we assume that, instead of the phoenix force itself, this representation of jean is actually the portion of her memory that includes the time the phoenix force "possessed" jean (up to and including her dark phoenix days,) that would easily clear up both the "i am you" line and the "belongs to you," as they'd be separate aspects of the same being, yet embodying wholly different emotions and experiences. jean's memory does include what the phoenix force did during its time in a faux-jean's body, so it would make sense that one of the pieces that flew in the trillions of directions embodied this.
the idea that the soul is limitless, and thus, that any portion of the soul is able to function as a whole (infinity divided by anything is still infinity) would account for the reappearance of the two jeans at once. both could be tapping the "cosmic power source" to the same extent, though 'jean' clearly showed more finesse in wielding the power (which could be attributed to the reintegration of the 'pieces' that had returned to the white hot room.) this would simply make the end of endsong a reintegration of another part, though clearly a more dominant personality aspect of the 'whole' jean, both of whom referred to themselves as phoenix in relation to a codename, not implying that they themselves were the phoenix force. and, in this, all "verbal slips" in which one character was referred to as jean or phoenix become immaterial in the argument that such examples imply jean and phoenix are one.
there. expanded versions of the various perspectives that can be taken in relation to endsong, besides jumping to the conclusion that jean is the phoenix force. both arguments consider canon history according to what is known (the 86 retcon,) and neither end up with jean being the phoenix. NEITHER argument considers the opinion or intent of chris claremont, who had no hand in the endsong series to begin with. if that doesn't open your eyes to the fact that there may just be possibilities besides what you've been hoping for, nothing will...
Wow talk about grasping for straws. . .He managed to take what was clearly printed in the book and interprete in a way other than what is LITERALLY there. . .
While managing to dodge the questions posed in the first place. Bravo. . .
does the possesion of a badge and gun make u a cop? just because sublime was using a power of Jeans doesnt make him a Phoenix. What I dont get is ignoring what's clearly stated (I am you). Phoenix is like a paradox, they can be seperate as in right now how Jean is finding her pieces so she can initiate her phoenix work, or whole as represented by the white oufit. The Phoenix Co. are different personalities as complete and whole as the other.
Originally posted by Disappear
every time i'm done, they always find a way to draw me back...new x-men does not, in any way, aid or abbet the 'jean is phoenix' idea. the term's "ultimate mutation" and "telekinetic godhood" aren't used in the context you imply. beast/sublime is referring to a purple liquid, "phoenix blood," as the ultimate mutation. telekinetic godhood in a jar. considering the known facts that a) human blood is never purple and b) cosmic entities have no blood, (and presuming with good reason that "your heart's blood," as said by the phoenix force to jean, is not something so easily extractable that beast/sublime could just sup some out of jean,) there are implications drawn. and they don't add up to jean being the phoenix.
At the end of the day Phoenix is refferred to as the "ultimate mutation" many a time during New X-men. There is a strong theme of evolution and survival of the fittest running through the series. Being a phoenix avatar is made out to be the pinnacle of evolution. The final stage. Mirrorring Chris C's original ideas that phoenix was Jan having reached her ultimate potential as a psi. In New X-men 154 Beast/Sublime talks of the origins of the Sublime sentient bacteria and its battle to survive and be dominant throughout evolution and the emergence of new species. It talks of how after millions of years man emerged and even that was no threat to the sublime colony as man was soon infected and placed under its control. It then talked of the first real threat to its existence which was the rise of mutants. It talked of influencing humans to have hostility to mutants so that " Locked in perpetual struggle, they could never breed, their population could never to threaten us with extinction". Beast/Sublime then says how the "eugenic Eden is almost born when all we be as we will it" He then gives the reason for this Eden as him having obtained from Jean "The precious blood of the Phoenix. The ultimate mutation. Telekinetic godhood in a jar"
Sublime obtained telekinetic godhood from Jean by extracting the appropriate genetic material from a blood sample he took from her. Its as simple as that. Why else do you think he was so eager to capture the phoenix egg. In the context laid down by that issue Phoenix is Jeans ultimate mutation and the power of telekietic godhood, the power of Phoenix was gained from Jeans blood. That contradicts an idea fundamental to the 86 retcon so goes some way into bringing about a new phoenix concept or more specifically a reversion to the old ideas of Phoenix.
Dont try and dismiss what is clearly there just because the liquid Sublime used to endow himself with the power wasnt red. Thats poor Disappear. Beast extracted blood from Jean and syntheseised it into a form that would allow its genetic traits to merge with his own.
As for the "hearts blood" reference it came right at the end of the comic and had nothing whatsoever to do with Sublime extracting blood. Through lack of knowledge you've taken that vague term and twisted it (albeit unintentionally) in an attempt to supports your own ideas when in fact its a reference to Kaballah.Grant Morrisons run was quite Kaballah oriented especially the last issue. In Kaballah Phoenix is the heart of creation and represents harmony and equilibrium. “heart got stuck” also refers to the “badly wounded orphan universe” whose equilibrium has been badly damaged.Picking up again the avatars-metaphor,when Jean descends into creation to operate acts of microsurgery,she becomes too emotionally involved,and she tends to put at risk the life of the “patient”,the Universe.( "You lost concentration, became emotionally engaged. Shock almost killed it. Will patient die unless internal heart damage repaired." ) The line about “you have to water it with your heart’s blood” and the final farewell to Scott mean that,once her mission is accomplished,she has to let the Universe go.Both her and the “baby Universe” must move on. She must leave the universe she was once a part of sever her connection to it (therefore "water it with her hearts blood" )
Originally posted by Disappear
the first implication would be that in working with jean's DNA, sublime was able to dramatically increase her power levels to what he calls 'telekinetic godhood,' which are feats even a mutant such as exodus would be able to perform. evidence that this is possible comes from the fact that the crawler with multiple man traits was able (according to EVA) to duplicate himself into hundreds of crawlers within a matter of minutes. jamie madrox, of the six-one-six universe, has a known limit of forty, though his genetics have been altered in similar ways by apocalypse (in the AoA) to create countless duplicates. the assumption that the same is possible for jean, another mutant, is by no means unfounded.
Your whole argument is based on unfounded speculation whereas im just relating whats actually stated on panel. You're having to stretch and come up with theories in order to support the 86 retcon im just explaining what's laid out for readers plain as day.
Telekinetic godhood is a term which refers to TOTAL telekinetic control of matter at the sub atomic level. (Please refer to New X-men 128 and 154 so you can refresh your memory on exactly what that entails) No mutant in the clear cut retcon period (86 to 02) was capable of that except for phoenix hosts. Even Nate Grey and Cable have not displayed such power levels. Your claim that Exodus is, is laughable. Its a power that was brought in by Claremont and linked to Phoenix.
Phoenix is referred to as the ultimate mutation many a time throughout the series. An unsurpassable stage of evolution. Telekinetic godhood is stated to be Phoenixes power it is linked to phoenix in New X-men. the line " the precious blood of the phoenix. The ultimate mutation. Telekinetic godhood in a jar " says all that needs to be said on the matter. Taking that line into consideration how pray tell is the Beast going to improve on the ultimate mutation? If Beast could just get an A grade telekinetic and genetically improve upon their traits to give him telekinetic godhood why didnt he do that instead of sending an army of crawlers to obtain the phoenix egg? The retcon period had many telekinetics which were more powerful than Jean (when seperate from Phoenix) tell me why he couldnt do that? Because now as per current continuity Jean is phoenix as was made quite clear in the series by all the references to "ultimate mutation" Jean tapping into her "phoenix potential" and the fact that Quentin Quire evolved into a Phoenix on panel. The power is in the blood its in your genetics to be a Phoenix hence the Phoenix Corps in issue 154. By making it so New X-men scraps the idea that Phoenix and Jean are totally seperate and that this cosmic entity randomly chose her. It introduces the idea that she is phoenix genetically. Phoenix is the name for the avatars who have reached their ultimate potential. Those who have gained telekinetic godhood. Its not the name for a seperate cosmic entity.
Also what you need to take into consideration is that "The Here comes tomorrow" future is different to the 616 reality, its an alternate future timeline. You cant therefore directly compare the abilities of those in the 616 present with those from a possible future. In alternate realities (Earth X for example) Jamie has been able to replicate enough to be present in every city on the planet. However thats a different reality, with many different factors and variables in play therefore a direct comparison just doesnt work. For all you know in the 150 years between the 616 present and this alternate future Jamies powers could have developed.
Originally posted by Disappear
the second assumption is that there was a genetic trait of jean's (one that's mentioned many times in post-86 issues,) that allows her to access the phoenix force. if sublime was able to duplicate this process in the body of the beast, opening his "crown chakra" (as it was referred to by cassandra nova and the shi'ar) to accept the phoenix's link, he would gain powers comparable to any of the members of the phoenix corps. this process by no means 'evolves' beast to the "ultimate mutation," but rather slightly alters his genetics to open a unique psionic frequency.aside from the context of the phoenix powers in the comic(s) themselves (your arguments really only hinged around 154,) the phoenix is referred to both as a "cosmic power source" and a separate "consciousness" than jean's own. this last point is further expanded upon during the phoenix corps scenes, where the phoenix force itself instructs jean on how to use its powers (which she borrows just like any of the others in the corps) to repair a dying universe. you'll also note that jean remains depowered until beast begins talking about remaking god in their image, and taking over all of creation. considering that's the phoenix force's "turf," it makes sense that the phoenix powers tapped by beast's newly opened chakra would leave him and return to their primary host. this shows that the phoenix force operates as a separate entity, outside of both jean and beast, and is not simply a mutation both shared. it chose its host when it felt justice needed to be served. i don't think it gets any clearer than that.
Thats a bit different im afraid and that talk was more to do with Rachel . It The difference here is that Jean isnt made out to be accessing a seperate entity. She has genetically reached the point of ultimate mutation just like Quentin Quire did earlier on in the series. How do you explain that?
Anyway you look at it injecting yourself with genetic material, causing your genetic makeup to change (mutate) endowing yourself with the same power as "the ultimate mutation" is causing yourself to evolve.
The use of the term "Crown Chakra" and "Phoenix Consciousness" in New X-men is very significant indeed and further proves my case. As aforementioned Grant Morrisons work tends to be very Kaballah oriented and New X-men is no exception. This Phoenix consciousness is not a seperate entity as you wrongly thought. Here let me explain a bit. ( Bear with me please this is essential for you to understand issue 154. Anyone who has read any of Morrisons other work will know this):
Before and beyond creation there is God The Unmanifest,God that does not manifests itself into Creation.It is beyond every possible conceptualization,because conceptualization is abstraction from experience,and experience is limited to the creation.It cannot be adequately represented (not even on a comic book!);it can only be alluded to.
From the Unmanifest God flows out the first emanation,from the first the second,and so on until the the tenth.These emanations,the Sephiroth,are the ten aspects of the manifest God,God that reveals itself into the Creation.The Tree of Life is a diagram in which the ten Sephiroth are disposed along three pillars,and connected by 22 paths which mediate their influences (10 as the numbers,22 as letters of the hebraic alphabet).Creation is a movement which touches all the Sephiroth from 1 to 10 in succession.
Each sephiroth is an emantion point for Gods essence in Kaballah each one represents a level of consciousness which humans can attain.
Keter,The Crown
Keter means crown.It is the crown of creation,because it stays on top of creation without being part of it,as the crown over the head.Keter is the sphere that contains all that was, is,or will be. It is the First Emanation and the Highest Divine Essence that we can conceive.Every Sephirah is a gate, and Keter is the gate between the Unmanifest and the world being accessible to human consciousness. Regarded as a level of consciousness, Keter represents union with God, the Completion of the Great Work, the end and aim of any mystical experience.To reach Keter is to be disintegrated, ( phoenix must die to be reborn) a dissolution that does not mean death,but rather union with the Ultimate Reality.
Keter contains in essence and potential all the other spheres;indeed everything exists in Keter in its archetypical form. ( New X-men 153 "You were always there waiting for yourself to arrive) The colour used to represent it is brilliant white,(Phoenix of the white Crown) both to symbolize burning radiance and the union of all colors of the spectrum.
The Phoenix consciousness is just a state of being, a higher level of consciousness those who have reached the point of ultimate mutation can attain. It is not a seperate entity. As you have read, this state of being is represented on the human body by the Crown chakra at the top of the head. The White Hot Room (The Crown) as you should have read contains the archetypal forms of all that is. The true forms of everything with which we are reunited with through death in the white hot room. (Endsong anyone? I know you're confused but afterwards in the white hot room, when all our pieces are back together, you'll understand, we'll understand"😉. In Kaballah we are not complete beings in creation we dont fully understand truly what we are until we are reunited with ourselves in the Crown. That is how Jean was always Phoenix but she just never knew it until the end of New X-men. As ive previously stated being in creation goes some way into making her forget her true herself. It was Jeans Phoenix self/Consciousness that appeared before her on the shuttle hence the line “-My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you"
Jeans form in creation is just a shell. Hence in New X-men 128 "Jean is just the house where i live" Nothing more than the form Phoenix manifests itself into creation in to carry out its "phoenix work", its "destined disinfections" Phoenix isnt a seperate entity but a level of consciousness which the avatars attain as a result of their mutations. That is how you explain the phoenix corps, Quentin Quire evolving on panel into a phoenix.
Originally posted by Disappear
the "phoenix egg" isn't proof either, considering the phoenix force encased a dead/dying jean in one before while operating separately from her. why wouldn't it do the same thing again?
Did you completely bypass my reply to your egg comments in my last post? If the golden woman is a seperate entity from Jean as you claim, why then was Jean born from the egg in the form of the golden woman. The same form that was stated to be derived from Jean anyway (prior to the replacement) the same form that was shown to be the true form of Phoenix ON PANEL in Excalibur 64. Surely Grant Morrison having Jean born in this very same form is an effort on his part to show that they are very much one and the same. If this form was just Jean then why was she reborn as the golden woman and on top of that talking of having been in the white hot room and needing to fix something? Your views dont fit in with what was shown in New X-men im afraid. I dont need to stretch to come up with an explanation.
Originally posted by Disappear
as for endsong, the major "phoenix entities" represented are the phoenix force, in the form of the 'dark phoenix,' and jean grey. it's truly arguable whether or not the dark phoenix actually represents the phoenix force at all, or simply a piece of jean. it'd be a hard day's work to say distinctively that it's the phoenix force itself, as opposed to being a separate chunk of jean gone missing when she died (which is fully possible, considering jean's memory was infused with that of the phoenix force, making her remember the PF's time as dark phoenix as if it was her own memory.) different implications from the series arise with the different views.
Considering what caused the fragmentation of Jeans self was an attack on Phoenix whom they (the Shi'ar) had tried to resurrect (via some unrevealed means) then id say this theory is out of the window. With Phoenix fragmented it travelled to Earth (followed by the Shi'ar who wanted to finish the job) and then followed the events of Endsong, where we found out that this wasnt a seperate entity but instead a part of Jean. The fact that the Shi'ars attack in the first issue meant that Jean had to go around searching for the missing parts of phoenix to be complete herself says it all really.
Originally posted by Disappear
if the phoenix force is truly representing its entire majesty in the form of 'dark phoenix,' most of your logic (from the last issue) can clearly be interpreted as saying that jean and the phoenix force are one and the same (despite the series' previous issues enforcing that they're not.)
Come on Dissappear a bit of common sense. It would hardly have been a good ending and far from a big surprise if they'd told the story in any other way than they did. They were hardly enforcing the retcons ideas as opposed to not giving the game up before the end of the series which is kinda understandable wouldnt you say? lol
Originally posted by Disappear
the flaw in this logic comes from the fact that, after the "big reveal" at which time jean says that they are one, the phoenix force still refers to them as separate entities. "this longing i feel...belongs to YOU." would not a piece of jean herself say, at least, "us"? if the force was still a rogue agent, it would make sense to make clear distinction between itself and its other parts (see any of multiple man's 'rogue dupe' instances for an example.) but this part, now integrating itself willingly, and coming to terms with its existence, still makes the distinction between itself and jean. so, either that discredits the idea that the 'dark phoenix' was the phoenix force to begin with, or it further proves the idea that the phoenix force is a separate being than its avatar, even in its own speech. how this affects the "i am you" line is somewhat vague, but it could easily imply a metaphysical meaning to jean's words, something nuanced that jean would explain later in the white hot room.
Not at all Dis. This "Dark Phoenix" was after all a confused shard and after Jean had explained how they were one and the same it both accepted that and made distinctions but ultimately it joined with her so thats irrelevant. Given that when it does join with her Jean talks of events from New X-men more specifically the Here comes tomorrow story arc you know that that series is continuity and therefore as explained in that series Phoenix is just a level of consciousness Jean is connected to Phoenix genetically, as Endsong supports by saying that the two are indeed one. Just like in the space shuttle incident this "dark phoenix" is derived from Jean a part of her consciousness that can talk an act independently but is still very much one and the same.
Originally posted by Disappear
if we assume that, instead of the phoenix force itself, this representation of jean is actually the portion of her memory that includes the time the phoenix force "possessed" jean (up to and including her dark phoenix days,) that would easily clear up both the "i am you" line and the "belongs to you," as they'd be separate aspects of the same being, yet embodying wholly different emotions and experiences. jean's memory does include what the phoenix force did during its time in a faux-jean's body, so it would make sense that one of the pieces that flew in the trillions of directions embodied this.
If this wasnt a part of Jeans Phoenix self but instead just a part of the memories of the retcon faux-Jean/Phoenix then how did they have the power to take on a seperate form by itself and resurrect people when in X-factor as per the 86 retcon period those memories lost all connection to the phoenix force and became just memories after a fight with the Celestials caused Jean to purge all remnants of the Phoenix force from her? Retcon period Jeans never had such power on her own. How would this shard of a retcon period Jean Grey be able to resurrect the dead Jean Grey and display other unusual powers with no connection to phoenix?
Originally posted by Disappear
the idea that the soul is limitless, and thus, that any portion of the soul is able to function as a whole (infinity divided by anything is still infinity) would account for the reappearance of the two jeans at once. both could be tapping the "cosmic power source" to the same extent, though 'jean' clearly showed more finesse in wielding the power (which could be attributed to the reintegration of the 'pieces' that had returned to the white hot room.) this would simply make the end of endsong a reintegration of another part, though clearly a more dominant personality aspect of the 'whole' jean, both of whom referred to themselves as phoenix in relation to a codename, not implying that they themselves were the phoenix force. and, in this, all "verbal slips" in which one character was referred to as jean or phoenix become immaterial in the argument that such examples imply jean and phoenix are one.
Massive stretch here. Completely unfounded and in light of all what is actually stated in the comics just really isnt good enough. Opinions and theories dont hold much ground in comparison to a relation of whats actually stated in the comics.
Originally posted by Disappear
there. expanded versions of the various perspectives that can be taken in relation to endsong, besides jumping to the conclusion that jean is the phoenix force. both arguments consider canon history according to what is known (the 86 retcon,) and neither end up with jean being the phoenix. NEITHER argument considers the opinion or intent of chris claremont, who had no hand in the endsong series to begin with. if that doesn't open your eyes to the fact that there may just be possibilities besides what you've been hoping for, nothing will...
There? There what? All of your alternate interpretations had flaws which i brought to light. You say my interpretation has flaws yet instead of taking apart my posts you merely make known the fact that youre in disagreement and then type in your own interpretation. That is not debating Disappear. Im still waiting for you to respond to the queries from my last post a number of days ago. I look forward to hearing from you.
Originally posted by thedarkphoenix
ok i have a question......now when jean comes back together will the phoenix be more evolved? 😕
Phoenix is a level of consciousness those who reach the stage of ultimate mutation can attain. The phoenixes are the avatars there is no seperate phoenix being as per current continuity. Whether that stays the case remains to be seen.
ugh... for the sake of my own sanity, i concede. i'm really just tired of this back and forth. you say my examples are without grounds, i say yours are. you cite kaballah as a principle behind the phoenix's existence, i could cite the fact that it was a small handful of magicians crafting the life essence of everything that is, was and will be into a being with limited sentience, or the fact that doctor strange once took spider-man outside of all existence and there was neither god nor anything white or hot. it all becomes subjective at a certain point, and relates back to whether or not one writer's interpretation of something can mesh with how it is, or how something of a larger scale truly is. as i see it, the phoenix and jean are and will be separate entities forged through life force and magicks, and life force and genetics, respectively. and, from a standpoint where that hasn't been made false, what you say cannot be true. as you see it, jean and the phoenix are irrevocably intertwined along the lines of existence itself, and from that standpoint what i say, despite having documentation to support it (as you do as well, i should add,) cannot be true.
so, either we agree to disagree and look at it as if both our truths must be considered, or we don't. either way, i'm just sick of the topic and the argument.
Originally posted by Disappear
ugh... for the sake of my own sanity, i concede. i'm really just tired of this back and forth. you say my examples are without grounds, i say yours are. you cite kaballah as a principle behind the phoenix's existence, i could cite the fact that it was a small handful of magicians crafting the life essence of everything that is, was and will be into a being with limited sentience, or the fact that doctor strange once took spider-man outside of all existence and there was neither god nor anything white or hot. it all becomes subjective at a certain point, and relates back to whether or not one writer's interpretation of something can mesh with how it is, or how something of a larger scale truly is. as i see it, the phoenix and jean are and will be separate entities forged through life force and magicks, and life force and genetics, respectively. and, from a standpoint where that hasn't been made false, what you say cannot be true. as you see it, jean and the phoenix are irrevocably intertwined along the lines of existence itself, and from that standpoint what i say, despite having documentation to support it (as you do as well, i should add,) cannot be true.so, either we agree to disagree and look at it as if both our truths must be considered, or we don't. either way, i'm just sick of the topic and the argument.
So in other words you cant explain the events i listed from New X-men and other series' in terms of the retcon so you're going to bow out and stubbornly stick to your view point despite this? 😉
Thats understandable albeit against the true spirit of debating.
At the end of the day the most recent phoenix sources from X-men forever up to phoenix endsong all support my ideas on Phoenix plainly. You have to reach back to 20 year old sources in an effort to support your case. Current phoenix stories state and/or explicitly suggest what i claim, you have to come up with theories and ways in which these events can still support the 86 retcon and as i showed you your efforts had many a hole in them. When you can explain the listed events in terms of the retcon and you can counter my last post point for point as i did your effort then your case will be taken more serioisly. As it stands the majority of the forum side with my viewpoint as its what is stated and suggested in the last 3 major phoenix appearances over the last 3 years. I'll leave it at that. 🙂
Originally posted by Disappear
the last phoenix standpoints that you've justified through a pseudo-religion which defines reality and existence in ways which are not accepting through the multiverses of marvel. and twenty years of history is still history.i'll leave mine at that.
Phoenix being interpreted in terms of Kaballah by Claremont (the characters creator),Morrrison and Pak is the treatment applied to that character/concept in their runs on the X-men series. Like it or lump it. Funnily enough in Uncanny X-men over the last few months Claremont is once again at the helm (and we all know how the creator interprets his baby) the white hot room (crown) and its link to phoenix is again confirmed by the latest issues of the series. It is again established as the origin point of the marvel multiverse so your point once again is rendered void. You have New X-men, Endsong and now Uncanny X-men has reverted to this interpretation of Phoenix im afraid. 3 major sources each successively interpreting phoenix as i claim over the last 3 and a half years. All the points from these series i have brought up you havent been able to sufficiently interpret in terms of the 86 retcon. In the comic book world decades of history can be canned or rearranged in the face of a retcon. Look what happened to the Beyonder, look how Galactus' origin has been changed to have phoenix resposnsible for his creation, look at Dc with Crisis on Infinite Earths. Nothing is set in stone in the comic book world. Who knows somewhere down the line this phoenix concept might change once again. But as it stands what i claimed about phoenix i has actually been stated and/or explicitly suggested in the comics without any need on my part to speculate or make up theories. The same can not be said for yourself. Heres the white hot room and its phoenix connection in Septembers issue of Uncanny: