Originally posted by Disappear
and, to counter your points made in that last scan-heavy thread, jean possessed telekinesis at an incredible level during the lengthy time in which the phoenix was clearly stated as its own entity. it's been in her genetics since day one, even in the original issues where her telepathy was being held behind mental blocks. if beast found a way to graft jean's genetic ability for telekinesis into him, much in the way sinister can graft other genetic structures into him, there's still no definitive proof that he's harboring any phoenix-based powers. his mind is incredible advanced, more so than jean's, and it's completely possible that he's either being boastful or found new ways to employ the telekinesis. nothing there definitively proves a jean-phoenix retcon.
Im sorry Disappear but that was a half hearted attempt at a counter and it fails in its attempt. In the 86 retcon period Jeans standard telekinesis was powerful but it was never at a level to make her totally stand out from her fellow mutants with similar powers. She never achieved telekinetic godhood. She never had total telekinetic control of matter. No other mutant during the retcon period did or has since. Even those who were stated as being more powerful than Jean. (Nate Grey, Cable) Your idea that Jeans always had this power (during the 86 retcon period) is ridiculous and completely unsupported. In Phoenixes original appearance (Uncanny 101 to 137) when Phoenix was Jeans ultimate potential realised, the idea of having control over matter at a sub atomic level was presented for the first time. Jean lost this ability during the retcon when they were made seperate entities. If it was in her genetics during the retcon period why didnt Madelyne Pryor posess anywhere near that level of telekinetic sensitivity? What does Jeans telepathy being beneficially held back have to do with her telekinesis?
Prior to New X-men Jean always referred to incidents Phoenix did (D'bari, M'kraan crystal) as just that, things that Phoenix did and made it quite clear that it was a seperate entity. However in New X-men Jean began referring to the events in the first person, she referred to the dark phoenix costume as hers.
Her sudden increase in powers in #128 was referred to as "a manifestation of the phoenix." Like it was in its original idea Phoenix was literally stated to be a level of mutation attainable by the genetically gifted. Phoenix was literally stated to be the "ultimate mutation" (not a seperate cosmic entity) mirroring its presentation in early days as nothing but "Jeans ultimate potential as a psi" When Jean and Emma had that confrontation Jeans enormous power levels were stated by Xavier to be her undergoing a radical psychic transformation" her accessing her "Phoenix potential"
Originally posted by Disappear
jean adopted the personality and memories of the phoenix-jean (dark phoenix) after the phoenix returned to the cosmos, or went through time to rachel (whatever it decided to do.) she believes that that is a part of her past, when all continuity states that it is not, and even explains that she only received that part of her memories after the whole dark phoenix incident. that doesn't prove anything, nor retcon the fact that while the phoenix was parading around on the moon, jean was in a healing cocoon back on earth, completely inactive. that still proves nothing toward a retcon.
Thats simply not good enough Disappear. Many a time (during the retcon period) since those early X-factor days and after the demise of M Pryor Jean has been able to distinguish between her memories and Phoenix's. She did it just fine in the Onslaught Saga (when she had a psychic battle with Onslaught and they talked of what PHOENIX did) and in Contest of Champions 2 (when the alien feared she was actually Phoenix and ran away in fright causing her to reflect on what PHOENIX did) and also more recently in X-men Forever (where her time travelling allowed her to have an insight into what PHOENIX did). All examples are a lot more recent than yours and show that if the retcon was still going on Jean would be able to distinguish between what she did and didnt do. (20 year old examples really dont cut it here im afraid. Not when the character has changed and matured.)
In New X-men she was clearly talking about all of Phoenixs actions as things she did (which opposes a multitude of recent examples from the retcon period) also in New X-men Jeans cosmic level powers and manifestation of the firebird are stated many a time to be her phoenix potential, it is actually stated in the comic that Phoenix is the "ultimate mutation" many a time (therefore theres no arguing with it). It is made very clear that the just like in the original concept Phoenix is the name of the avatar (symbolic of their evolution and the nature of their existence) who as their ultimate potential can tap into the power of creation. There is no mention of a seperate phoenix entity. The phoenixes are the avatars who have reached this point of ultimate mutation and manifest in creation from these phoenix eggs in order to carry out their "phoenix work". Hence the Phoenix Corps at the end of issue 154. If the phoenix is a cosmic entity that goes around posessing individuals dont you think it would have a hard time possessing a dozens upon dozens of hosts at one time if it got overwhelmed by the psyche of one? How do you explain the Phoenix Corps then?
There was a strong theme of evolution running through New X-men. Quentin Quire was an omega mutant who at the end of the Riot story arc was stated to be evolving he died shortly afterwards. In New X-men 154 he was shown in the White Hot room where Jean has ascended to after the completion of her phoenix work. Quentin had evolved into a phoenix. Again supporting the idea that phoenix is a stage of evolution the ultimate stage as is actually stated plain as day in the series. Quentins evolution, phoenix being referred to as jeans ultimate potential, Beasts acquisition of telekinetic godhood from Jeans blood all support the idea. Theres just no escaping it.
Originally posted by Disappear
jean's comment about the cocoon and being born again all the time doesn't make her the phoenix either. it doesn't change the fact that they were two separate entities the first time it happened, and it could be taken as jean simply stating that she and the phoenix force are tied together, not one and the same. jean's made reference to dying and being reborn countless times prior to this. that doesn't serve as a retcon either, nor does it make the healing cocoon part of her life. it's still, using all plausible continuity, something the phoenix force erects around jean to heal her dying body. the conversation with the golden woman says nothing of being jean grey, but rather continues the already-proven idea that the phoenix adopted jean as its host in order to experience sensations such as emotion and desire. it doesnt say "i feel this because i am you" in any sense, and it doesnt at all undo the idea that the phoenix possesses a human host in order to experience heightened levels of awareness (dating back to feron, several hundred years prior to the original jean/phoenix incident.)
Jean stated in New X-men that as a phoenix she needs to die to be reborn as phoenix. It is the way of the phoenix and she said this always happens in "blood , flame and sacrifice" In issue 128 Jean was stated to be merely a shell where Phoenix lives. Jean is just how phoenix manifests into creation to do its phoenix work. Chris Claremont went out of his way to reinforce (after the retcon) that Jean and Phoenix were one and the same which is why he released his classic X-men backstories after the 86 retcon. His stories showed that Jean has always been Phoenix, she just never knew it. That is how her phoenix self could appear to her on the shuttle to say:
“-My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.
-Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"
-You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality.You are human.I am of creation.”
The golden woman that appearred before Jean as stated here is of Jean. This was prior to Jean accepting the figures terms so your ideas about it being in line with the retcon are void. Jean claims it is part of her imagination and the figure doesnt deny this but defends its existence as just that. The white hot room is beyond reality, that is where Jeans and the other avatar's phoenix consciousness' reside so New X-men fits in with this. If you've read Classic X-men 8 you'd know that Jean was connected with Phoenix prior to this shuttle incident. It manifested when Jeans childhood friend died in the issues flashback. Your idea that Phoenix is a seperate entity that chose Jean as a result of this shuttle affair suddenly isnt looking so solid is it?